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Power sailor to wind sailor
Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat
independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK. just playing around 15 years ago. Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances. how do you transition from power boat to sail? what habits do i need to unlearn? what safety habits differ from power to sail? what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as opposed to power? Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats? ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good work done cheap? side band channels to monitor for info and tips? quick guides to what not to do in various ports? where to avoid and why? groups to sail with? income at sea? And whole bunches more. I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc. And currently i have time due to a crushed leg. Thanks in advance. 2MT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Mar 14, 7:34 pm, "Two meter troll" wrote:
Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. Thanks in advance. 2MT Most people I see or read about here lack any kind sea service. That is, they dont know squat about how the ocean works. For me, knowing the how water works is 99.90% of the game... gotta know how water works. So if ya had that talk with God while in the middle of Unimak Pass, out Adak wayor some place equally nasty in the black of night I think yould make a great sailboat operator. How to learn? Go to the local YMCA or University and take a few lessons on a 12' anything. Or get a couple how to books......... get a 10'-16' anything with a mast and go get blown around. When ya can tool around the bay in that 12' somthing buy yourself a 21'-24' tuppa wear soemthing and sail the **** out of it. Make sure its cheep and all dinged up. Your gonna add a few. Should take you about 6-12 months. Tada........ youre a "captain" now :) Have FUN! Bob Oh, PS good wind sailors are always a bit more nervous looking than motor boat drivers........... |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Bob wrote:
On Mar 14, 7:34 pm, "Two meter troll" wrote: Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. Thanks in advance. 2MT Most people I see or read about here lack any kind sea service. That is, they dont know squat about how the ocean works. For me, knowing the how water works is 99.90% of the game... gotta know how water works. So if ya had that talk with God while in the middle of Unimak Pass, out Adak wayor some place equally nasty in the black of night I think yould make a great sailboat operator. How to learn? Go to the local YMCA or University and take a few lessons on a 12' anything. Or get a couple how to books......... get a 10'-16' anything with a mast and go get blown around. When ya can tool around the bay in that 12' somthing buy yourself a 21'-24' tuppa wear soemthing and sail the **** out of it. Make sure its cheep and all dinged up. Your gonna add a few. Should take you about 6-12 months. Tada........ youre a "captain" now :) Have FUN! Bob Oh, PS good wind sailors are always a bit more nervous looking than motor boat drivers........... bin there done that dinged that broke this whopped it and whipped the sheet now buying my new (to me) smacker |
Power sailor to wind sailor
... Go to the
local YMCA or University and take a few lessons on a 12' anything. Or get a couple how to books......... Unless you've blow out your back or otherwise crippled yourself over the years in which case learn on a 20sih foot something with a keel. I made the mistake of sending my girl friend off to the local community college sailing school where she spent most of her time watching the EMS folks med-evac broken adults. Unlike power boats sail boats need nearly constant attention and can't keep a schedule. You will find the work load higher and the time between ports extremely variable. Also, be aware that if you are used to going to sea in a ship you may be surprised at how small and wet a small boat is out at sea. These days, with the dollar so weak, the good boat yard deals in the South Pacific are pretty much gone. You can get excellent work done in New Zealand or Australia but you will pay a price. There are functional yards in the Societies, Fiji and New Catalonia. I don't recommend sailing in company to try to make up for a lack of ability, but from the West coast there is a "class" each year that sails in fairly close company to French Polynesia. You might want to check out the Bahaha and the still closely tied magazine "Latitude 38". For company under way I like the HAM nets, but if you don't have a HAM license then there are some good marine SSB nets as well. Good luck! -- Tom. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Two meter troll wrote:
Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK. just playing around 15 years ago. Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances. how do you transition from power boat to sail? what habits do i need to unlearn? what safety habits differ from power to sail? what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as opposed to power? Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats? ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good work done cheap? side band channels to monitor for info and tips? quick guides to what not to do in various ports? where to avoid and why? groups to sail with? income at sea? And whole bunches more. I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc. And currently i have time due to a crushed leg. Thanks in advance. 2MT When you say "the mother of all maritime links", are you referring to http://www.boat-links.com/ , or something I haven't discovered yet? Good luck with that leg. DT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
DT yes thats the one. As for the small boat sailor end of things i was raised on a 30' salmon troller; and had my own for many years. I also spent a rather large amount of my time on king crab boats; wet is not much of a problem. I actually have a greater worriy about how sail boats handle the seas and weather. then i remember i am NOT going to have to slip out past latex rocks and into the gulf of alaska while a storm is heading down cause i have a one day blue king opening in six days and we got a late start in bellingham. Also another question came up fro those of you who sail north of the circle. how do you deal with various ice conditions? grease, frazzel, glass and pancake. if you have a glass boat the frazzel and glass is gonna cut it to ribbons and the grease ice is just going to stick and build up. but if you are on wind power how do you heat the hull? not to worried about lack of ability Tom, more that i will have a wife and may have a child aboard and would like some folks to visit with. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
I would say the biggest difference comes with heavy weather conditions. You
have to be more aware of changing conditions to do things like get your sail area reduced if the wind picks up. For extreme conditions, I would learn about measures to keep your boat safe, like lying ahull. You have to be more aware of the depths you will go over, since most sailboats have deep keels. Learning how to keep from going aground and what to do if you are, can be important. Navigation with currents becomes more important, since your speed is much less than a power boat and you are exposed to drifts for longer periods. Those are mostly safety issues. Of course, you will have to learn more about sail trim, reefing sails, etc. to complete the picture. Just don't become one of those sailors I see motoring with a favorable wind with all their sails down. Sherwin D. Two meter troll wrote: Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK. just playing around 15 years ago. Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances. how do you transition from power boat to sail? what habits do i need to unlearn? what safety habits differ from power to sail? what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as opposed to power? Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats? ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good work done cheap? side band channels to monitor for info and tips? quick guides to what not to do in various ports? where to avoid and why? groups to sail with? income at sea? And whole bunches more. I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc. And currently i have time due to a crushed leg. Thanks in advance. 2MT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Lying ahull?
learning a new language so please bear with me. The idea behind the sail boat is that i have a better way to go to the places folks want me and my partner to build and teach. It just makes more sense for a permiculture teacher and a natrual builder to travel by wind power than burn up fuel. (as an aside) the tiny amount of weight you can carry on an airplane does not make up my tool boxes. ( it was lucky i could catch a bus to new orleans, at the last second cause; i sure couldnt put the 300 lbs of hand tools on the plane with me) getting away from power boats for me is the point; the screaming jimmy might be a way to power a boat, but ive always watched the sail boats fly by quiet and sweet while i made enugh noise to wake the dead. LOL the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8 knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf of mexico and it did 17. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Two meter troll" wrote in message
oups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Two meter troll" wrote in ooglegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. Thanks |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Two meter troll wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in ooglegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. Thanks No sea anchor required to heave to! |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Two meter troll" wrote in message
ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in ooglegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. Thanks Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g2000hs c.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. Thanks Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes |
Power sailor to wind sailor
....
the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8 knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf of mexico and it did 17. My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days. Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your "Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet. -- Tom. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g2000h sc.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. Thanks Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes Huh? Three ways: 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
wrote in message
oups.com... ... the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8 knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf of mexico and it did 17. My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days. Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your "Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet. -- Tom. We've always calculated 5 kts. Seems to be pretty accurate. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message roups.com... ... the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8 knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf of mexico and it did 17. My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days. Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your "Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet. -- Tom. We've always calculated 5 kts. Seems to be pretty accurate. 5 knots is about what we motor at If a power boat person is used to a 20 foot catamaran with twin 350 engines (like one of my SILs), then both 8 knots and 5 knots is going to seem really really slow. But if the power boat person is more of a trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not seem to be so much slower. On paper at least. The difference is the length of the days required to get from point A to point B. If you are used to thinking 8 knots, then it will take you 6 hours to do 48 nm. At 5 knots it will take more than 9 hours. In the winter and/or at high latitudes it may make a big difference in planning your landfalls. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Capt. JG" wrote:
"Keith Hughes" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g2000 hsc.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. I agree that lying ahull is not a good thing to do. However heaving to is not possible in all types of sailboats, or at least is more difficult to do. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes Huh? Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Rosalie B." wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote: "Keith Hughes" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g200 0hsc.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. I agree that lying ahull is not a good thing to do. However heaving to is not possible in all types of sailboats, or at least is more difficult to do. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes Huh? Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. Very good information. I thought heaving-to was only done using a backed jib and a main (usually reefed). I just learned something new. Now I know better than to believe Capt. JG. Looks like he hasn't kept up with the new terminology. I'm Ted Bell! |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote: "Keith Hughes" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g200 0hsc.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. I agree that lying ahull is not a good thing to do. However heaving to is not possible in all types of sailboats, or at least is more difficult to do. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes Huh? Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. He may have used the term heave-to (incorrectly) in the intro paragraph, but lying to a sea anchor and heaving to (the technique) have nothing to do with each other. Type: define: heave to in google. Actually, there's a fourth way to heave-to.... I always ask people to do it on the leward side. g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Rosalie B." wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote: "Keith Hughes" wrote in message .. . Capt. JG wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message ups.com... On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in messagenews:1174066150.092432.101980@e65g20 00hsc.googlegroups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. I agree that lying ahull is not a good thing to do. However heaving to is not possible in all types of sailboats, or at least is more difficult to do. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 -- "j" ganz "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Keith Hughes Huh? Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. He may have used the term heave-to (incorrectly) in the intro paragraph, but lying to a sea anchor and heaving to (the technique) have nothing to do with each other. Type: define: heave to in google. Actually, there's a fourth way to heave-to.... I always ask people to do it on the leward side. g I'm relatively new to sailing and I never heard of a leward side. Did you mean leeward side? If you did then you're still not using the right expression. I believe "lee rail" is what you puke over. But you needn't worry about puking if you enjoy a steak dinner with baked potato wrapped in tinfoil at Ted's of Beverly Hills Steakhouse where we like to put our meat in your mouth. I'm Ted Bell! |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:48:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Two meter troll" wrote in message roups.com... Lying ahull? Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up. It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to maneauver. The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for lunch, etc. Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 Good article. Some of this sounds all too familiar: ============================================== Heaving-to Heavy weather sailing by George Day Blue Water Sailing Heavy weather wears on the boat, tears on the sails and gradually takes a mighty toll on the crew. Exhaustion, from lack of sleep, from worry and from the persistent roar of waves and wind, can be blamed for more problems at sea than any other single cause. When you're too tired to sail on, when the crew is feeling battered and sick, when the boat seems to be overpowered, you will know it is time to stop for a while and heave to. =============================================== Almost prophetic in fact... |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On 16 Mar 2007 13:06:23 -0700, "
wrote: 8 knots port to port will require a fast boat and hard work 8 knots is about average for a fully crewed 50 ft racing sloop being pushed hard around the clock. Been there, done that. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:14:40 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote: But if the power boat person is more of a trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not seem to be so much slower. On paper at least. There's a huge difference between an 8 kt trawler and a 5 kt sailboat. A trawler does 200 nautical mile days almost effortlessly regardless of wind and seas (up to a point of course). With decent weather it is possible to predict ETAs with a reasonable degree of accuracy. A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and speed. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Capt. JG" wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message .. . "Capt. JG" wrote: snip Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. He may have used the term heave-to (incorrectly) in the intro paragraph, but lying to a sea anchor and heaving to (the technique) have nothing to do with each other. Who is the HE you refer to as using the term incorrectly. You gave this URL as an explanation. Why do that if you think that what is written is incorrect? I think the person who wrote the explanation is using 'heave to' in the general sense of storm weather tactics. Don't be so quick to criticize a non-sailor for actually reading what is written instead of what you think was written. Because the point is to explain what a sailboat would do in case of a storm differently than what a power boat would do. The OP grasped quite quickly that lying ahull would perhaps not be a wise idea, and why that would be so. Why nitpick about what he is calling heaving to? Note: It is necessary to practice heaving to just as anything else, and while you might want to do it first in good weather, it might be a good idea to try it sometime in heavy weather conditions. We do it with the staysail and main or with the staysail and jib, and one of the other people who has our type of boat says that one of those ways is wrong. (I don't remember which he says is correct.) I'm pretty sure that we don't use the main and jib, but I could be wrong about that. We also have a sea anchor, but have not practiced with it yet because in the Chesapeake there's too much traffic for it to be needed. Plus there's a lot of places to hide. It's also a good idea to have the canvas reduced before you really need to do it. Type: define: heave to in google. Actually, there's a fourth way to heave-to.... I always ask people to do it on the leward side. g |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:12:59 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and speed. Unless it's a Mac 26M. I'll be headed north in June from south Florida with my GB49. Let's head out into the Gulf Stream together for two or three days of around the clock passage making. We can compare notes and daily averages when you get to Morehead City, NC. Call me on the radio if you start falling behind and I'll make sympathetic clucking noises. Bring plenty of fuel; marinas are a bit sparse out there. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:46:24 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: My preference is gunkholing in the Keys. You're welcome to tag along, but a lot of it requires 18"' draft and beaching. We could race down from Port Charlotte. I'll have plenty of gas, most of it used in the Coleman stove. Have a good trip! Well, that's what our dinghy is for - different boats for different trips. We'll have to go through the Keys on our way north since the Ortona Lock is scheduled to be closed on the Okeechobee Waterway. http://www.cruisersnet.net/index.php...6_articleid=15 |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:06:10 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:14:40 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote: But if the power boat person is more of a trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not seem to be so much slower. On paper at least. There's a huge difference between an 8 kt trawler and a 5 kt sailboat. A trawler does 200 nautical mile days almost effortlessly regardless of wind and seas (up to a point of course). With decent weather it is possible to predict ETAs with a reasonable degree of accuracy. A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and speed. Unless it's a Mac 26M. --Vic |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:03:08 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: Well, that's what our dinghy is for - different boats for different trips. We'll have to go through the Keys on our way north since the Ortona Lock is scheduled to be closed on the Okeechobee Waterway. http://www.cruisersnet.net/index.php...6_articleid=15 Maybe they'll push it back to July, and you can traverse. How do you like boating that piece? Stopped there on the road once and had fried gator. Pretty good. It's an intersting trip if you don't do it too often, and it saves well over 200 miles which translates to time and $$$s at today's diesel prices. We usually stay over at Roland Martin's Marina in Clewiston. The local bar scene there is a hoot but bring plenty of skeeter repellant. We donated a can to the band last time we were there just to keep them playing. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:33:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:12:59 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and speed. Unless it's a Mac 26M. I'll be headed north in June from south Florida with my GB49. Let's head out into the Gulf Stream together for two or three days of around the clock passage making. We can compare notes and daily averages when you get to Morehead City, NC. Call me on the radio if you start falling behind and I'll make sympathetic clucking noises. Bring plenty of fuel; marinas are a bit sparse out there. My preference is gunkholing in the Keys. You're welcome to tag along, but a lot of it requires 18"' draft and beaching. We could race down from Port Charlotte. I'll have plenty of gas, most of it used in the Coleman stove. Have a good trip! --Vic |
Power sailor to wind sailor
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:57:08 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:46:24 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: My preference is gunkholing in the Keys. You're welcome to tag along, but a lot of it requires 18"' draft and beaching. We could race down from Port Charlotte. I'll have plenty of gas, most of it used in the Coleman stove. Have a good trip! Well, that's what our dinghy is for - different boats for different trips. We'll have to go through the Keys on our way north since the Ortona Lock is scheduled to be closed on the Okeechobee Waterway. http://www.cruisersnet.net/index.php...6_articleid=15 Maybe they'll push it back to July, and you can traverse. How do you like boating that piece? Stopped there on the road once and had fried gator. Pretty good. --Vic |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:14:40 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote: But if the power boat person is more of a trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not seem to be so much slower. On paper at least. There's a huge difference between an 8 kt trawler and a 5 kt sailboat. A trawler does 200 nautical mile days almost effortlessly regardless of wind and seas (up to a point of course). With decent weather it is possible to predict ETAs with a reasonable degree of accuracy. That was my point. A sailboat must be managed constantly to maintain 5 kts and there is a great deal of daily uncertainty because of changing wind direction and speed. |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote: "Rosalie B." wrote in message . .. "Capt. JG" wrote: snip Here's a long explanation of the various techniques... http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284 "heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair. That's basically correct given that URL. Heaving to is doing something to make the boat keep still in good orientation to the waves. There are other techniques to do that and a sea anchor is one of them. Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing to do with a sea anchor. Nope, not according to the linked info. To quote: "But, heaving to is most often done when the wind is really piping. There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail." Three ways: It says there "are three generally accepted ways to HEAVE TO in a sailboat" and lists three ways 1) lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor 2) lying ahull 3) heaving to under reduced sail Thus, heaving-to is under reduced sail and has nothing to do with a sea anchor. We know what we mean by heaving to because we are sailors. But that's not what that passage actually SAYS. He may have used the term heave-to (incorrectly) in the intro paragraph, but lying to a sea anchor and heaving to (the technique) have nothing to do with each other. Who is the HE you refer to as using the term incorrectly. You gave this URL as an explanation. Why do that if you think that what is written is incorrect? I think the person who wrote the explanation is using 'heave to' in the general sense of storm weather tactics. Don't be so quick to criticize a non-sailor for actually reading what is written instead of what you think was written. Because the point is to explain what a sailboat would do in case of a storm differently than what a power boat would do. The OP grasped quite quickly that lying ahull would perhaps not be a wise idea, and why that would be so. Why nitpick about what he is calling heaving to? Note: It is necessary to practice heaving to just as anything else, and while you might want to do it first in good weather, it might be a good idea to try it sometime in heavy weather conditions. We do it with the staysail and main or with the staysail and jib, and one of the other people who has our type of boat says that one of those ways is wrong. (I don't remember which he says is correct.) I'm pretty sure that we don't use the main and jib, but I could be wrong about that. We also have a sea anchor, but have not practiced with it yet because in the Chesapeake there's too much traffic for it to be needed. Plus there's a lot of places to hide. It's also a good idea to have the canvas reduced before you really need to do it. Type: define: heave to in google. Actually, there's a fourth way to heave-to.... I always ask people to do it on the leward side. g He is the author. Heaving to is not deploying a sea anchor nor lying ahull. I'm not nitpicking. I disputed that lying ahull is the method of choice. I wasn't "quick to criticize a non-sailor." I was quick to point out that there is a difference between the three and eventually I pointed out that the author was in error about calling all three heaving to. Don't be so quick to pass judgement about what I wrote. I wrote it and provided a link for his benefit. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
"sherwindu" wrote in message
... That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I really meant heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the mark since Royce defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has saved my butt many times. My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the main sail is reefed and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is that the boat will actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1 knot. This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off due to the backed jib. I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a boat sinking because of semantics. We knew that. g There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these days. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Power sailor to wind sailor
That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I really
meant heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the mark since Royce defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has saved my butt many times. My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the main sail is reefed and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is that the boat will actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1 knot. This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off due to the backed jib. I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a boat sinking because of semantics. Sherwin D. sherwindu wrote: I would say the biggest difference comes with heavy weather conditions. You have to be more aware of changing conditions to do things like get your sail area reduced if the wind picks up. For extreme conditions, I would learn about measures to keep your boat safe, like lying ahull. You have to be more aware of the depths you will go over, since most sailboats have deep keels. Learning how to keep from going aground and what to do if you are, can be important. Navigation with currents becomes more important, since your speed is much less than a power boat and you are exposed to drifts for longer periods. Those are mostly safety issues. Of course, you will have to learn more about sail trim, reefing sails, etc. to complete the picture. Just don't become one of those sailors I see motoring with a favorable wind with all their sails down. Sherwin D. Two meter troll wrote: Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK. just playing around 15 years ago. Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances. how do you transition from power boat to sail? what habits do i need to unlearn? what safety habits differ from power to sail? what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as opposed to power? Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats? ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good work done cheap? side band channels to monitor for info and tips? quick guides to what not to do in various ports? where to avoid and why? groups to sail with? income at sea? And whole bunches more. I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc. And currently i have time due to a crushed leg. Thanks in advance. 2MT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days. "j" ganz There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these days. "j" ganz Back in 1987, the drogue report pretty well deep sixed Lyingahull with wave height or = to your beam. The models in the wave tank kept rolling over and sinking. http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/ Humm, so you have 10-13' seas, Pretty common day in most places, now what? Better have a boat over 40' if your going to do that lying thing. As far as heavy weather tactics goes there is a bunch of them. And everybody claims that some doodad or strategy will save your ass. No one thing will work. Think of it this way. If you're in law enforcement or corrections its the same as your "use of force" model. Instead of using progressively lethal force to control a subject, your using a progressive series of sailing strategies to maintain control of your boat. But I've never read anyplace that really described it that way; Too bad. I can see why people get confused about how to manage a boat in ever increasing Beaufort states. Do this, don't do that, get a doodad, no get a series doodad. And then there is always that summarizing paragraph that says, "but all boats react differently... bla...bla...bla... so you just have to figure it out yourself." That is a bunch of bull **** from people who don't know what they are doing. Keeping your boat afloat is as simple as A-B-C-D. $.02 And for the 3rd or 4th time I'll post the comments from a master on one of the rescue boats who saved several in the Fastnet 1979. A quote that rarely gets reprinted in those "Perfect Storm" books. Fastnet Disaster of 1979 Interview with Bill Burrows, Chief Engineer Royal Navy Lifeboat Institution. Retrieved three disabled sailboats in a 21 hour rescue during the fatal 1979 Fastnet Storm. "... Look, you get 300 Yachats in poor weather and you're going to have some trouble, almost certainly. But the majority of the trouble was hysteria created by the situation and by inexperienced crews. And that it was. They were blaming rudders and such, but none of those rudders would have snapped if they had put drogues out and storm jibs and run before the weather. They were under bare poles, most of them, and they were getting up on the seas. And the seas were about 45 feet. Not what we around here call big. They got up on these seas and they were running. When the boats were starting to broach, what the helmsmen were doing was hauling on the rudders to stop them from broaching. They were putting too much bloody strain on the rudders, and they had to go. Yes, I know they were racing sailors, not cruising men, but that's no excuse. We went out that night and we passed a little old hooker sort of thing with a family of kids aboard and they were going away to Ireland with no trouble at all...." |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Thanks for repeating that (I posted it a while ago as well). I consider it
one of the most important and useful quotes in boating. It's amazing what a calm, organized, and matter of fact vessel management style does to reduce the size of the seas and the force of the wind. You almost always have several times longer to deal with a problem than it feels like. Taking it slow, thinkng it through, and not complicating the situation with adenalin rush, is as important as your safety teather when the going gets tough. Even many jet test pilots, where things happen really fast, often used to say the that very first thing to do in any emergency was to count to ten slowly. -- Roger Long |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Your vocabulary is going to expand!!
Heaving to is one of my favourites, someone always gets mad whenever it is discussed here! On a destroyer in the Navy, the mooring lines were 4 inches and there were 6 men assigned to each line, the command to "pull the rope" is "heave to!" What has been mentioned [back-haul the jib and tie the rudder over] is the way that everyone learned in school because all schools teach with a sloop, but if you get a ketch there is a method to heave-to using the mizzen aswell. And below I pasted a bit from the oxford dictionary showing a couple other methods. Why I bet there is folks as traveled around the world and never knew you could use your spencer to heave-to! hhahhahahhaaa But the imortant thing about sailing is just kick back and enjoyit, cause now God has all the power! Stop rushing [bet that's how ya lost the leg???] tom =-== c. heave to: to bring the ship to a standstill by setting the sails so as to counteract each other; to make her lie to. (a) trans. with the ship as obj. (b) intr. or absol. a. 1775 DALRYMPLE in Phil. Trans. LXVIII. 397 Hove the ship to. 1833 M. SCOTT Tom Cringle xv. (1859) 357 'Shorten sail..and heave the ship to', said the Captain. 1884 A. BRASSEY in Gd. Words Mar. 163/1 We remained hove-to all the next day. fig. 1887 STEVENSON Misadv. J. Nicholson iv, [He] was at last hove-to, all standing, in a hospital. b. 1781 BLAGDEN in Phil. Trans. LXXI. 337 Soon afterwards we hove-to in order to sound. 1835 SIR J. ROSS Narr. 2nd Voy. vi. 79 This obliged us to heave to. 1860 MAURY Phys. Geog. Sea xix. §807 Took in fore and mizen top-sails; hove to under close-reefed main top sail and spencer. transf. 1832 MARRYAT N. Forster iii, We must 'heave-to' in our narrative awhile. On Mar 15, 3:34 am, "Two meter troll" wrote: Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places sane folks take sail boats in the modern era. I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK. just playing around 15 years ago. Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances. how do you transition from power boat to sail? what habits do i need to unlearn? what safety habits differ from power to sail? what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as opposed to power? Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats? ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good work done cheap? side band channels to monitor for info and tips? quick guides to what not to do in various ports? where to avoid and why? groups to sail with? income at sea? And whole bunches more. I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc. And currently i have time due to a crushed leg. Thanks in advance. 2MT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
Actually i lost the leg teaching folks to build and helping people
improve the livability if there communities; i quit the dangerious stuff and learned to build safe natrual building http://www.naturalbuildingnetwork.or...techniques.htm Or here if you want some skilled fun. 2MT |
Power sailor to wind sailor
* tlindly wrote, On 3/18/2007 8:04 AM:
.... What has been mentioned [back-haul the jib and tie the rudder over] is the way that everyone learned in school because all schools teach with a sloop, but if you get a ketch there is a method to heave-to using the mizzen aswell. And below I pasted a bit from the oxford dictionary showing a couple other methods. Why I bet there is folks as traveled around the world and never knew you could use your spencer to heave-to! hhahhahahhaaa But the imortant thing about sailing is just kick back and enjoyit, cause now God has all the power! Stop rushing [bet that's how ya lost the leg???] tom =-== c. heave to: to bring the ship to a standstill by setting the sails so as to counteract each other; to make her lie to. (a) trans. with the ship as obj. (b) intr. or absol. a. 1775 DALRYMPLE in Phil. Trans. LXVIII. 397 Hove the ship to. 1833 M. SCOTT Tom Cringle xv. (1859) 357 'Shorten sail..and heave the ship to', said the Captain. 1884 A. BRASSEY in Gd. Words Mar. 163/1 We remained hove-to all the next day. fig. 1887 STEVENSON Misadv. J. Nicholson iv, [He] was at last hove-to, all standing, in a hospital. b. 1781 BLAGDEN in Phil. Trans. LXXI. 337 Soon afterwards we hove-to in order to sound. 1835 SIR J. ROSS Narr. 2nd Voy. vi. 79 This obliged us to heave to. 1860 MAURY Phys. Geog. Sea xix. §807 Took in fore and mizen top-sails; hove to under close-reefed main top sail and spencer. transf. 1832 MARRYAT N. Forster iii, We must 'heave-to' in our narrative awhile. Thanks for that - very interesting. I looked in the 1802 edition of Bowditch for a definition of "Heave To." There is a whole section on variations of "heave" but nothing for "heave to." Perhaps this was not common terminology for the ships Bowditch was concerned with. However, it did have this: "To Lie-to. To retard a ship on her course, by arranging the sails in such a manner as to counteract each other with nearly an equal effort, and tender the ship almost immovable, with respect to her progressive motion or headway." From a somewhat more modern source, "The Boatman's Manual" by Carl Lane, 1942, the technique of lashing the tiller down and adjusting the sails so the boat "goes to sleep" is described as "Laying To" but it is mentioned in passing as being "hove to." Then, in the chapter on small power boat handling, there is a section on "Heaving To" where it explains that "small boats will not heave to without aid as a steamer will, and a sea anchor, or drogue, becomes a necessity." From 1943, Chapman's "Piloting, Seamanship, and Small Boat Handling" uses "Heaving to" to describe the "helm down" technique for sailboats, but for powerboats it is used when engines are used to keep the bow into the wind, or when the boat is simple allowed to drift in whatever orientation is most comfortable for the boat. |
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