My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not
usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink.
The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing
a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the
area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being
wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My
personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is
described as littering the water.

So what if you attach a much longer line to the dink that is tied off short
as to keep it at a shorter interval and, using a quick release knot, allow it
to float much further behind the boat so as to give the MOB a line to grab
and a dink to crawl into if possible before throwing all sorts of floatation
overboard. Would this also provide a line that would encircle the MOB while
coming about making it easier to retrieve them, provided of course that you
come about on the correct side of the MOB with the line.

Bill

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"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6db8eefcaef43@uwe...
My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not
usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink.
The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and
losing
a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the
area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to
being
wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My
personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which
is
described as littering the water.

So what if you attach a much longer line to the dink that is tied off
short
as to keep it at a shorter interval and, using a quick release knot, allow
it
to float much further behind the boat so as to give the MOB a line to grab
and a dink to crawl into if possible before throwing all sorts of
floatation
overboard. Would this also provide a line that would encircle the MOB
while
coming about making it easier to retrieve them, provided of course that
you
come about on the correct side of the MOB with the line.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cruising/200702/1



Interesting.. not sure if it would really make that much difference... might
make things worse. With the LifeSling, for example, you encircle the MOB
with the line, which eventually brings the attached horseshoe to the MOB. I
think the dink line might be too big and potentially harmful. Also, when you
get to the end, you have a fairly good size weight at the end, which might
be quite a smack.

I do think dinks should have lines running down the sides to facilitate
entry.

One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you in
some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to stop
the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then figure a
way to get them aboard.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you
in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to
stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then
figure a way to get them aboard.

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm
water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the
bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will
groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than
losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.)

2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?) launch
whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold water),
stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the OP idea is
good news - dink's already there.)

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die.
Difficult, eh?

Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)
Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)

Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard.

My conclusions:

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water
by a fit person.
B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.
C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a strong
crew.

OK, fire away.

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail.

The one thinh I would add to JimB's response ---

My golden rule has always been ---- If you go overboard, you are going to
die. If you don't want to die, don't fall over board. IMHO, this is the
best starting point. If you become too comfortable in the ability of the
crew to do a recovery, you may get a bit too sloopy in your attention to
safety. Having said that, yeah .... have a plan and practice it.



"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you
in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to
stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then
figure a way to get them aboard.

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the
bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will
groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than
losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.)

2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?)
launch whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold
water), stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the
OP idea is good news - dink's already there.)

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die.
Difficult, eh?

Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)
Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)

Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard.

My conclusions:

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.
B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.
C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a
strong crew.

OK, fire away.

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail.

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
The one thinh I would add to JimB's response ---

My golden rule has always been ---- If you go overboard, you are going to
die. If you don't want to die, don't fall over board. IMHO, this is the
best starting point. If you become too comfortable in the ability of the
crew to do a recovery, you may get a bit too sloopy in your attention to
safety. Having said that, yeah .... have a plan and practice it.


For shorthanded or single-handed cruising or crusing at night on passages
when most of the people are below, you should be attached to the boat at all
times unless there's no wind and you're not moving. It's not a bad idea to
ensure that there are always two people on deck, especially at night.

I totally agree that complacency kills.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you
in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to
stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then
figure a way to get them aboard.

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the boat
stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down and
get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree water,
the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However, they'll
be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most important thing
to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this will extend their
survival time.


1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the
bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will
groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than
losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.)

Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat
slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting
hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?)
launch whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold
water), stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the
OP idea is good news - dink's already there.)

Maybe... even probably, but why not just rig something with the tools
available on the boat... you have winches, halyards... use them.

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

Bad idea in most cases.

4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die.
Difficult, eh?

If you do things right, you may not have to make this choice.

Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)
Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.)

Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard.

My conclusions:

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.

Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing on
by themselves.

B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.

Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch out
for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat.

C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a
strong crew.

Every system/method must be practiced or it will not work. That's the bottom
line.

OK, fire away.

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail.




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:


Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat
slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting
hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.


Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch out
for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat.

Capt Sir,

Due respect, but I have boarded the stern of a
dive boat in the open Pacific (8' swells) with a
60lb pack on my back, and holding my dive fins in
one hand.

You are correct that you have to be very careful
not to get bonked on the head. Still, in cold
water if you will get the stern of that boat close
to me and the ladder down, I'll take my chances
instead of waiting for you to rig something else.

(Also, on our Irwin it would be very difficult to
hit someone with the prop unless they were
completely under the boat.)

Of course, the OP is right. You should consider
that falling off the boat is like falling off of a
1000' cliff and treat it with the same respect.

Don W.

"Don W" wrote in message
t...


Capt. JG wrote:


Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water.


Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch
out for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat.

Capt Sir,

Due respect, but I have boarded the stern of a dive boat in the open
Pacific (8' swells) with a 60lb pack on my back, and holding my dive fins
in one hand.

So have I... I was typing/thinking about sailboats. I've been out in some
big rollers (actually side-to-side rollers), and the best way we found to
board was to wait until the rail came down low enough to grab it, then hold
on until you're free of the water. (48' CT ketch) I don't think I would have
wanted to try that if the rollers were from the stern to bow.

You are correct that you have to be very careful not to get bonked on the
head. Still, in cold water if you will get the stern of that boat close
to me and the ladder down, I'll take my chances instead of waiting for you
to rig something else.

(Also, on our Irwin it would be very difficult to hit someone with the
prop unless they were completely under the boat.)

True, but if someone inadvertantly had the engine running or not fixed, it
could happen. Much less chance abeam.

Of course, the OP is right. You should consider that falling off the boat
is like falling off of a 1000' cliff and treat it with the same respect.

Don W.


g Well, anything over 30 feet or so and it doesn't much matter.

--
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www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the
boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down
and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree
water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However,
they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most
important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this
will extend their survival time.

By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand was
obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if it
confused you.

Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a
small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat up
beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep enough
ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the stern. And
once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can control his
position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder has to be
positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be pulled forward
(past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And very few beam
ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough into the water to
useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested, slide around the
bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into. You've probably tried
using the flexible steps to get into a life raft - b** useless.

but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat... you
have winches, halyards... use them.

Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one
person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to rig
the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling down and
becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next, you've got to
lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move in to assist,
and you'll need him.

I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations. Halyard
with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up needing
three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best to cut
those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to lift the man
(or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!)

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

Bad idea in most cases.

I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier
to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going
to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer
water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two aboard,
deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk versus one (in
cold water) certainly lost.

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.

Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing
on by themselves.

Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can
easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore
after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have
ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the
majority of MOB events.

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail.

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in
warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way:

Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the
boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things
down and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55
degree water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours.
However, they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The
most important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD,
since this will extend their survival time.

By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand
was obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if
it confused you.

You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic
conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should
block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than
longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better
than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much
more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or
the boat itself.

Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to
wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less
chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc.

I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a
small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat
up beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep
enough ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the
stern. And once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can
control his position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder
has to be positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be
pulled forward (past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And
very few beam ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough
into the water to useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested,
slide around the bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into.
You've probably tried using the flexible steps to get into a life raft -
b** useless.

Actually, we have. The boat should not be making "small headway," rather it
should be completely stopped. Small headway is how fast exactly? 1 kt? Even
at that speed you'll be hard-pressed. You're talking about someone who at
best is totally freaked from having been in the water. They're not going to
be doing anything except scrambling to get back on, and that assumes they
can actually do something useful. Most MOBs don't fall off in benign
conditions. 10 foot seas with lots of chop and whitecaps are pretty extreme
if you have someone in the water.

Pulled forward?? You need to stop the boat between the waves/wind and the
person ON THE BEAM. If your boat is set up properly, deploying a beam ladder
(which I don't think is a good idea either) takes a matter of seconds to
deploy. Instead of a ladder, use the rest of the boat's equipment to recover
the person. As soon as you attach them to the boat, you have plenty of time.


but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat...
you have winches, halyards... use them.

Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one
person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to
rig the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling
down and becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next,
you've got to lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move
in to assist, and you'll need him.

No, it doesn't take excessive time. Yes, it takes practice! You can and I
have done all of this by myself. You don't need anyone to "stabilize" the
boat.

Here are the basic steps:

0) Calm down and help whoever remains on the boat to do the same (panic
kills faster than cold water)
1) return to the MOB (several methods - note that using the Lifesling, you
can't drag the person around)
2) position the boat abeam of the MOB with the MOB on the leeward side (this
protects the person and makes it easier to recover them)
3) stop all forward motion of the boat (anything less than this will make it
very difficult to recover the MOB)
4) attach the MOB to the boat (now they can't go anywhere)
5) drop all sails and secure the boom (you don't want jib sheets and booms
whipping around and you don't want the possibility of sailing away)
6) recover the MOB (use a winch, etc. to make it easier on everyone)

I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations.
Halyard with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up
needing three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best
to cut those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to
lift the man (or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!)

You're just wrong or not doing this right. ONE person can do this, but yes
you have to practice.

3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in.

Down? You should almost never put a second person in the water if that's
what you mean.


Bad idea in most cases.

I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier
to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going
to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer
water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two
aboard, deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk
versus one (in cold water) certainly lost.

The dink is going to be, at best, highly unstable. Putting someone in the
dink is going to be tricky and dangerous except in the most benign
conditions, as you pretty much said.

A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the
water by a fit person.

Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing
on by themselves.

Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can
easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore
after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have
ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the
majority of MOB events.

Your point doesn't quite cut it. You need to use the boat to help you
recover someone. A boarding ladder should be available when you go swimming,
but it isn't good enough for an MOB recovery. Learn and practice the proper
recovery methods for an MOB. That's what is going to save someone's life....
not getting a nice boarding ladder for the stern.


--
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www.sailnow.com