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Mob Rules
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:04 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm I know, I was looking at that very page. Just testing.. I'd still choose Jim's ladder or any quick and dirty method rather than wait for your elegant but slow solution. Besides, a mayday would probably have you in *hospital* sooner than 30 minutes unless you are miles from anywhere. I would call for help in any mob where they did not climb back on board themselves within a couple of minutes. |
Mob Rules
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message
... On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:04 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm I know, I was looking at that very page. Just testing.. I'd still choose Jim's ladder or any quick and dirty method rather than wait for your elegant but slow solution. Besides, a mayday would probably have you in *hospital* sooner than 30 minutes unless you are miles from anywhere. I would call for help in any mob where they did not climb back on board themselves within a couple of minutes. Actually, an MOB is not technically a mayday situation. Of course, this is a judgement call, and you would be within the guidelines to call one in for that, but trying for more than a few minutes is likely to get faster help. I would think that even in the most idea situation for a mayday, it would take near that long to get outside help. Also consider the short-handed situation of being distracted by yet another thing... vhf hailing, explanation, location identification, etc. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:39:28 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:04 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm I know, I was looking at that very page. Just testing.. I'd still choose Jim's ladder or any quick and dirty method rather than wait for your elegant but slow solution. Besides, a mayday would probably have you in *hospital* sooner than 30 minutes unless you are miles from anywhere. I would call for help in any mob where they did not climb back on board themselves within a couple of minutes. Actually, an MOB is not technically a mayday situation. Debatable, I think. If the MOB can not get on board unaided or at least quickly then he is in is in danger of hypothermia (in cold water) or possibly inhailing sea water (if rough) and if he cannot climb a ladder, probably injured ( or a fat MF..). Use Pan pan or lower call if you like, the CG gets to know whichever way you call them. Of course, this is a judgement call, and you would be within the guidelines to call one in for that, but trying for more than a few minutes is likely to get faster help. I would think that even in the most idea situation for a mayday, it would take near that long to get outside help. Here, about five minutes plus however long it takes at 30kts for an ILB to get there. For a chopper may be half an hour but you probably would not get one unless the situation really needed one. Well they can't get started until you have given up, doing it your way and you still have the possibility of hypothermia, secondary drowning, injury etc. to deal with even if you succeed. It no time to let pride that you can recover a MOB be tested at the expense of not seeking outside help. Also consider the short-handed situation of being distracted by yet another thing... vhf hailing, explanation, location identification, etc. Sure, you need to keep sight of the MOB first and foremost. I think you need to get a GPS MOB position anyhow. I can reach my mic from the helm so I don't think of using the radio as a problem. There is nothing to stop you trying to recover the MOB after making the call. There is so much debate about the best methods, one is left thinking that some of them don't work out well when it comes to the crunch. |
Mob Rules
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message
... On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:39:28 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:04 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message m... On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm I know, I was looking at that very page. Just testing.. I'd still choose Jim's ladder or any quick and dirty method rather than wait for your elegant but slow solution. Besides, a mayday would probably have you in *hospital* sooner than 30 minutes unless you are miles from anywhere. I would call for help in any mob where they did not climb back on board themselves within a couple of minutes. Actually, an MOB is not technically a mayday situation. Debatable, I think. If the MOB can not get on board unaided or at least quickly then he is in is in danger of hypothermia (in cold water) or possibly inhailing sea water (if rough) and if he cannot climb a ladder, probably injured ( or a fat MF..). Use Pan pan or lower call if you like, the CG gets to know whichever way you call them. Sure... totally debatable, but I tend to err on the side of caution, so I'm not going to argue. g Of course, this is a judgement call, and you would be within the guidelines to call one in for that, but trying for more than a few minutes is likely to get faster help. I would think that even in the most idea situation for a mayday, it would take near that long to get outside help. Here, about five minutes plus however long it takes at 30kts for an ILB to get there. For a chopper may be half an hour but you probably would not get one unless the situation really needed one. Yeah, I'd say without specifics that I'd try for 10-15 minutes, which is a pretty big range and quite a long time, and this supposes in the bay. Last time I timed one of my students, she thought it took 10 minutes to recover the dummy, when it actually took less than 1.5 to get to the dummy, and after we talked through the process of dropping the sails, etc. (too dangerous to try in this high traffic area) staying on station hove-to, that was another 3 minutes. So, the time dialation even in practice was pretty significant. Well they can't get started until you have given up, doing it your way and you still have the possibility of hypothermia, secondary drowning, injury etc. to deal with even if you succeed. It no time to let pride that you can recover a MOB be tested at the expense of not seeking outside help. Also consider the short-handed situation of being distracted by yet another thing... vhf hailing, explanation, location identification, etc. Sure, you need to keep sight of the MOB first and foremost. I think you need to get a GPS MOB position anyhow. I can reach my mic from the helm so I don't think of using the radio as a problem. Off shore, I would definitely agree. Off shore is a different kettle of fish.. you can't sail away at all with any real hope of recovering the MOB. There is nothing to stop you trying to recover the MOB after making the call. True, but again, I would try first, then hail, then keep trying until someone showed. There is so much debate about the best methods, one is left thinking that some of them don't work out well when it comes to the crunch. Definitely true. There was just a symposium out here that explored that very issue. Quite enlightening. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" Like all these threads, this one shows that different priorities are at work in different parts of the world, and give rise to different practices. UK winter sailing is a cool affair - 6degC is not uncommon. I lost an aviator friend who bailed out into our North sea. He was recovered from the water within 15 minutes, but died. A couple of years later a very experienced skipper (James) went over the side in light conditions off Salcombe, Devon, 10degC. With a strong crew of four aboard, they were unable to recover him quickly enough (they estimated 15 minutes) and he died. A second crew member who went in to tie a line around him also became seriously hypothermic, but survived. No ladder. I make two points now. First, the variability of different people's ability to withstand cold shock is great. An average of 20 minutes covers a range from 5 minutes to an hour and a half. Second, the majority of MOBs occur in benign conditions when people aren't wearing harnesses, and don't have them attached - a passing wash, peeing over the stern, transferring from dinghy to boat, slipping when stepping from shore to vessel (alcohol doesn't help). These are common situations, and people are off gaurd. Also, more MOB occur in crowded and moderately sheltered waters - 'cos that's where the yachts are, often racing. In my opinion there's too much emphasis on the more remote situations among trainers, leading them to dismiss the mundane. I was guilty once - til I started analysing the stats. And, JG, it's naughty of you to assume I'm stupid enough to jump into the sea to attempt to rescue an MOB. And equally naughty to dismiss the stern ladder because, in your opinion, it doesn't work in very rough weather. Remember the common situations . . . You trained people to use halyards. So did I. In the same sessions I also trained people to use stern ladders, and left them to choose which technique they preferred. As I said above, horses for courses . . . depends on the conditions. I still think it's stupid to go to sea on a boat which doesn't have a stern bathing ladder which can be deployed from within the water . . .. JimB www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ Comparing European Cruise areas, with detail on Greece. |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" Like all these threads, this one shows that different priorities are at work in different parts of the world, and give rise to different practices. Yes, absolutely true.. I think there are some basic similarities, but different areas require different knowledge and possible different techniques. UK winter sailing is a cool affair - 6degC is not uncommon. I lost an aviator friend who bailed out into our North sea. He was recovered from the water within 15 minutes, but died. A couple of years later a very experienced skipper (James) went over the side in light conditions off Salcombe, Devon, 10degC. With a strong crew of four aboard, they were unable to recover him quickly enough (they estimated 15 minutes) and he died. A second crew member who went in to tie a line around him also became seriously hypothermic, but survived. No ladder. In the SF bay, we lose people every year due to the cold water (a bit over 10 deg. C.) Some people survive the plunge but then have a heart attack from the stress for example. Some are in the water for several hours, some for just a few minutes. Most MOBs don't happen in benign conditions (well, 20+kts wind, 4+ kts current, 55 degree water, 4-5+ foot chop) in the bay. I make two points now. First, the variability of different people's ability to withstand cold shock is great. An average of 20 minutes covers a range from 5 minutes to an hour and a half. True enough. Second, the majority of MOBs occur in benign conditions when people aren't wearing harnesses, and don't have them attached - a passing wash, peeing over the stern, transferring from dinghy to boat, slipping when stepping from shore to vessel (alcohol doesn't help). These are common situations, and people are off gaurd. Also, more MOB occur in crowded and moderately sheltered waters - 'cos that's where the yachts are, often racing. Also true, but I don't think that's where this thread was going.... when people do stupid things, such as peeing off the stern, all bets are off. But, these don't require a full-blown effort to rescue them unless there are other facts involved... e.g., more than the MOB under the influence of alcohol for example. There are lots of people chopped up by their own props from PWCs too... I think that's a different discussion. In my opinion there's too much emphasis on the more remote situations among trainers, leading them to dismiss the mundane. I was guilty once - til I started analysing the stats. Well, perhaps were you are... out here you have to be able to get back to the person, to stop the boat, attach them to the boat, and recover them if you want to save their life. The mudane conditions are usually preventable. Our concern is when someone goes up on deck in the bay or near shore in less than idea conditions, slips and goes over. And, JG, it's naughty of you to assume I'm stupid enough to jump into the sea to attempt to rescue an MOB. And equally naughty to dismiss the stern ladder because, in your opinion, it doesn't work in very rough weather. Remember the common situations . . . If I implied that I apologize. I will say that we've seen incidents where otherwise intelligent people have jumped in to save someone and became victims themselves. I will continue to insist that a stern ladder recovery generally does not work in very rough conditions. I also will continue to insist that it is not the best way to try, and that there are other methods (previously outlined) that are more effective and more safe. Out here, rough conditions are commonplace. You trained people to use halyards. So did I. In the same sessions I also trained people to use stern ladders, and left them to choose which technique they preferred. As I said above, horses for courses . . . depends on the conditions. I still think it's stupid to go to sea on a boat which doesn't have a stern bathing ladder which can be deployed from within the water . . . We don't train people in every possible technique for crew recovery. We do train them in the techniques we feel are likely to be useful in the conditions at hand. It's kind of like the joking that goes on when there's no wind on a warm day at slack, while we're at anchor for lunch. I ask students what they would do if someone fell off right now... what technique would you use to get them back in the boat. I typically get all sorts of answers... use the halyards, break out the Lifesling... you name it. I say no to all of it... I tell them to tell the MOB to get back in the damn boat. g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
Capt. JG wrote:
We don't train people in every possible technique for crew recovery. We do train them in the techniques we feel are likely to be useful in the conditions at hand. It's kind of like the joking that goes on when there's no wind on a warm day at slack, while we're at anchor for lunch. I ask students what they would do if someone fell off right now... what technique would you use to get them back in the boat. I typically get all sorts of answers... use the halyards, break out the Lifesling... you name it. I say no to all of it... I tell them to tell the MOB to get back in the damn boat. g :) Don Wo |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote:
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm One of the Occupational Health Phys. at work (OcDoc) said a rule of thumb was that 50% of people survived 50 minutes in water of 50 degrees. I walked off the back of the pier in November one year (in the Potomac area, so it was cold), and I could not get my foot up to the ladders on the dock or on the side of our boat. I eventually climbed out on our swim ladder. I suppose just swimming to shore would have been a possibility, or climbing out on the stern platform of one of the charter fishing boats. But I didn't think of it. We HAVE practiced pulling each other out of the water (in the summer), and we can both do it using the jib winches, provided that the person in the water can attach themselves to the sling. We tested the auto-inflate PFDs at the same time, and also the ability to get into the inflatable. If we attach a tape ladder (flat fabric) to the side of the inflatable that goes all the way across the top and into the water, then I can get out into the dinghy. I can put my feet into the steps in the water and pull on the rungs that are on top of the dinghy with my hands. This keeps the fact that the ladder is going to swing under the dinghy to be less important. I have never been able to board our boat (the big one) from the water except using the swim ladder. Now whenever we are underway, Bob leaves the swim ladder halfway down, and you can deploy it the rest of the way from in the water by pulling it down |
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