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Mob Rules
In the past, I tended to agree with the old view that towing a dink behind
the mothership was "lubberly," and ill-advised. I still tend to think that way when a hard dink is involved, but recently purchased a 9 foot Genesis (Walker Bay) inflatable. With this monster sitting, inflated and assembled, in our dining room last evening, it suddenly occurred to me how much like a very large PFD this dinghy is, which has me reconsidering my standard MOB routine. At this time my standing MOB Rule is that upon crew going aglub, the first thing to do is to toss them a horseshoe with floating line attached, keeping an eye on them (or trying to) while coming about for rescue attempts. Other than retrieving "Oscar" in the Navy (for non-squids, "Oscar" is a stuffed manakin made of sailor clothing wearing a PFD, used for Man Overboard drills) and PFD's or rings tossed overboard, I've not had the misfortune (so far) of having to actually rescue an actual person. But this inflatable dink has me rethinking things. By towing the dink when weather allows, if crew should go overboard the dinghy could be cut loose immediately. This would provide conscious MOB with a boat to swim towards, and give rescue crew another marker (though one with more windage) to help with locating the missing crew. The floating line in the water would also give the MOB something to grab, and its streaming direction would offer clues as to the current and rate of drift, assuming it's not being trailed behind a wind-driven dink. And, of course, trailing a dinghy in the water in fair weather could become a handful if the wind picks up. Any thoughts? -- Karin Rawson 30 ketch "Escapade" aka "Essie" |
Mob Rules
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
... In the past, I tended to agree with the old view that towing a dink behind the mothership was "lubberly," and ill-advised. I still tend to think that way when a hard dink is involved, but recently purchased a 9 foot Genesis (Walker Bay) inflatable. With this monster sitting, inflated and assembled, in our dining room last evening, it suddenly occurred to me how much like a very large PFD this dinghy is, which has me reconsidering my standard MOB routine. At this time my standing MOB Rule is that upon crew going aglub, the first thing to do is to toss them a horseshoe with floating line attached, keeping an eye on them (or trying to) while coming about for rescue attempts. Other than retrieving "Oscar" in the Navy (for non-squids, "Oscar" is a stuffed manakin made of sailor clothing wearing a PFD, used for Man Overboard drills) and PFD's or rings tossed overboard, I've not had the misfortune (so far) of having to actually rescue an actual person. But this inflatable dink has me rethinking things. By towing the dink when weather allows, if crew should go overboard the dinghy could be cut loose immediately. This would provide conscious MOB with a boat to swim towards, and give rescue crew another marker (though one with more windage) to help with locating the missing crew. The floating line in the water would also give the MOB something to grab, and its streaming direction would offer clues as to the current and rate of drift, assuming it's not being trailed behind a wind-driven dink. And, of course, trailing a dinghy in the water in fair weather could become a handful if the wind picks up. Any thoughts? My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink. The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is described as littering the water. In addition, the generally accepted rule of preventing hypothermia is for the MOB *not* to attempt to swim, as this uses up useful heat reserves in a futile attempt to catch the boat. In practice, with a conscious person, that's going to be ignored if the rescue boat is within a boat length or less. If the person is conscious, I would talk to them as well as other crew members, for one thing telling the MOB not to swim. I certainly understand the tempting nature of using the dink, but I think the deficit outweighs the advantage. I'm fortunate that I've never experienced a true MOB emergency, but I've been in the water on practice MOBs, and I've been aboard when others have gone over deliberately. Well, I did push a woman into the water in the BVI once, so I could get some recovery practice, but she didn't spill her drink, so I don't think that counts. g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink. The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is described as littering the water. In addition, the generally accepted rule of preventing hypothermia is for the MOB *not* to attempt to swim, as this uses up useful heat reserves in a futile attempt to catch the boat. In practice, with a conscious person, that's going to be ignored if the rescue boat is within a boat length or less. If the person is conscious, I would talk to them as well as other crew members, for one thing telling the MOB not to swim. I certainly understand the tempting nature of using the dink, but I think the deficit outweighs the advantage. I'm fortunate that I've never experienced a true MOB emergency, but I've been in the water on practice MOBs, and I've been aboard when others have gone over deliberately. Well, I did push a woman into the water in the BVI once, so I could get some recovery practice, but she didn't spill her drink, so I don't think that counts. g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "J", Valid thoughts, many of which were on my mind as well. Thanks for the reply! :-) |
Mob Rules
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink. The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is described as littering the water. In addition, the generally accepted rule of preventing hypothermia is for the MOB *not* to attempt to swim, as this uses up useful heat reserves in a futile attempt to catch the boat. In practice, with a conscious person, that's going to be ignored if the rescue boat is within a boat length or less. If the person is conscious, I would talk to them as well as other crew members, for one thing telling the MOB not to swim. I certainly understand the tempting nature of using the dink, but I think the deficit outweighs the advantage. I'm fortunate that I've never experienced a true MOB emergency, but I've been in the water on practice MOBs, and I've been aboard when others have gone over deliberately. Well, I did push a woman into the water in the BVI once, so I could get some recovery practice, but she didn't spill her drink, so I don't think that counts. g "J", Valid thoughts, many of which were on my mind as well. Thanks for the reply! :-) Unfortunately, retrieving a conscious MOB is a cake-walk compared to an unconscious one. If you've never tried it, get a weighted dummy or sack with rocks that's 150 - 200 lbs and try retrieving it while on a mooring or at anchor (not at the dock, as that removes the motion of the boat due to current/wind). It really takes some planning, especially if the person doing the retrieving is smaller than the MOB. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
You might want to think about rigging a drogue that deploys when you
release the dink as the boat may well drift faster than the MOB can swim. Or, You might experiment with having a really long floating painter that you can deploy so that it will circle the MOB when you do a quick stop (like a life sling)... Have fun, -- Tom |
Mob Rules
My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not
usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink. The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is described as littering the water. So what if you attach a much longer line to the dink that is tied off short as to keep it at a shorter interval and, using a quick release knot, allow it to float much further behind the boat so as to give the MOB a line to grab and a dink to crawl into if possible before throwing all sorts of floatation overboard. Would this also provide a line that would encircle the MOB while coming about making it easier to retrieve them, provided of course that you come about on the correct side of the MOB with the line. Bill -- Message posted via BoatKB.com http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cruising/200702/1 |
Mob Rules
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6db8eefcaef43@uwe... My initial thought is that the situations when someone goes aglub do not usually lend themselves to having any useful help from an unattached dink. The typical situation would be one of fairly high winds and seas, and losing a dink in those conditions would disappear it almost immediately from the area. A dink made of what you describe would be highly susceptible to being wind-blown; thus, something with more windage would be a disadvantage. My personal preference would be to throw multiple objects that float, which is described as littering the water. So what if you attach a much longer line to the dink that is tied off short as to keep it at a shorter interval and, using a quick release knot, allow it to float much further behind the boat so as to give the MOB a line to grab and a dink to crawl into if possible before throwing all sorts of floatation overboard. Would this also provide a line that would encircle the MOB while coming about making it easier to retrieve them, provided of course that you come about on the correct side of the MOB with the line. Bill -- Message posted via BoatKB.com http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cruising/200702/1 Interesting.. not sure if it would really make that much difference... might make things worse. With the LifeSling, for example, you encircle the MOB with the line, which eventually brings the attached horseshoe to the MOB. I think the dink line might be too big and potentially harmful. Also, when you get to the end, you have a fairly good size weight at the end, which might be quite a smack. I do think dinks should have lines running down the sides to facilitate entry. One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then figure a way to get them aboard. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
wrote in message
oups.com... You might want to think about rigging a drogue that deploys when you release the dink as the boat may well drift faster than the MOB can swim. Or, You might experiment with having a really long floating painter that you can deploy so that it will circle the MOB when you do a quick stop (like a life sling)... Have fun, -- Tom It would be interesting to see what the tradeoff is between complexity and usefulness. The previous COB workshop I believe showed that simpler tends to be better. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
wrote in message oups.com... You might want to think about rigging a drogue that deploys when you release the dink as the boat may well drift faster than the MOB can swim. Or, You might experiment with having a really long floating painter that you can deploy so that it will circle the MOB when you do a quick stop (like a life sling)... Have fun, -- Tom I take it we're talking a REALLY long floating painter -- half a mile's worth? :-) |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... You might want to think about rigging a drogue that deploys when you release the dink as the boat may well drift faster than the MOB can swim. Or, You might experiment with having a really long floating painter that you can deploy so that it will circle the MOB when you do a quick stop (like a life sling)... Have fun, -- Tom It would be interesting to see what the tradeoff is between complexity and usefulness. The previous COB workshop I believe showed that simpler tends to be better. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com I think I'm going to try a variation on one of the previously-mentioned ideas: Short painter (three boat lengths, or 100 feet for good measure) but additional MOB line (same polypropylene or other floating line) on a spool. Quick release on the spool would allow the rest of the painter (as MOB line) to pay out while the boat encircles the MOB. I think it's worth experimenting with. The inflatable stays attached to the boat, as does the line. |
Mob Rules
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:13:42 -0600, KLC Lewis wrote:
In the past, I tended to agree with the old view that towing a dink behind the mothership was "lubberly," and ill-advised. I still tend to think that way when a hard dink is involved, but recently purchased a 9 foot Genesis (Walker Bay) inflatable. With this monster sitting, inflated and assembled, in our dining room last evening, it suddenly occurred to me how much like a very large PFD this dinghy is, which has me reconsidering my standard MOB routine. No thoughts, but a couple Stories: First, many single-handers will trail a floating line behind them in case they fall overboard. One guy I knew was trailing iirc 100ft of line when he fell in. Swimming as fast as he could, he JUST made it to the end of the line. Now he tows 200 ft... (in open conditions, of course! In a crowded waterway that line is guaranteed to foul in someone's prop...) Second, I was running "chaseboat" for some canoeists paddling across the Strait, and when changing crews we decided to use an inflatable: we'd trail the inf. back to the canoe, they'd roll into it, we'd pull it up, and they'd get into Far Cove. Worked OK until the wind came up... One paddler swore her handprint was imbedded in the stern of Far Cove when she was fending it off while trying to board, and the whole procedure was abandoned when a gust of wind picked the dinghy up and dropped it upside-down on top of the canoe. (we just didn't worry about scratched gelcoat and got everybody off the canoe at that point) And that was just 20-25knots in Georgia Strait! druid |
Mob Rules
KLC Lewis wrote:
In the past, I tended to agree with the old view that towing a dink behind the mothership was "lubberly," and ill-advised. I still tend to think that way when a hard dink is involved, but recently purchased a 9 foot Genesis (Walker Bay) inflatable. With this monster sitting, inflated and assembled, in our dining room last evening, it suddenly occurred to me how much like a very large PFD this dinghy is, which has me reconsidering my standard MOB routine. At this time my standing MOB Rule is that upon crew going aglub, the first thing to do is to toss them a horseshoe with floating line attached, keeping an eye on them (or trying to) while coming about for rescue attempts. Other than retrieving "Oscar" in the Navy (for non-squids, "Oscar" is a stuffed manakin made of sailor clothing wearing a PFD, used for Man Overboard drills) and PFD's or rings tossed overboard, I've not had the misfortune (so far) of having to actually rescue an actual person. But this inflatable dink has me rethinking things. By towing the dink when weather allows, if crew should go overboard the dinghy could be cut loose immediately. This would provide conscious MOB with a boat to swim towards, and give rescue crew another marker (though one with more windage) to help with locating the missing crew. The floating line in the water would also give the MOB something to grab, and its streaming direction would offer clues as to the current and rate of drift, assuming it's not being trailed behind a wind-driven dink. And, of course, trailing a dinghy in the water in fair weather could become a handful if the wind picks up. Any thoughts? A lot of people seem to think that towing a dinghy is a bad idea, and I've never tried it even in benign conditions. The times I've been offshore we've kept the inflatable lashed down upside down on the front deck, and the outboard on the stern rail. Just the same, I think your idea may have some merit with the appropriate rig. You would need a good cover or self-bailing system to keep the inflatable from filling with water and becoming a towed sea anchor. You would also need some floating line, and plan on trailing the dink 100' or so behind the boat to give the MOB a chance to catch it on the way by. Now, some line loops on the side and back of the dink would give a conscious MOB a pretty good chance of grabbing the dink on the way by, and possibly hauling themselves aboard. You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. If you plan on casting loose the dink, I'd suggest a one-way parachute drogue on the line to stop the dink from blowing away when you release it. Let us know what you find out. Don W. |
Mob Rules
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... You might want to think about rigging a drogue that deploys when you release the dink as the boat may well drift faster than the MOB can swim. Or, You might experiment with having a really long floating painter that you can deploy so that it will circle the MOB when you do a quick stop (like a life sling)... Have fun, -- Tom It would be interesting to see what the tradeoff is between complexity and usefulness. The previous COB workshop I believe showed that simpler tends to be better. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com I think I'm going to try a variation on one of the previously-mentioned ideas: Short painter (three boat lengths, or 100 feet for good measure) but additional MOB line (same polypropylene or other floating line) on a spool. Quick release on the spool would allow the rest of the painter (as MOB line) to pay out while the boat encircles the MOB. I think it's worth experimenting with. The inflatable stays attached to the boat, as does the line. How are you planning on trying it? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"druid" wrote in message
... On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:13:42 -0600, KLC Lewis wrote: In the past, I tended to agree with the old view that towing a dink behind the mothership was "lubberly," and ill-advised. I still tend to think that way when a hard dink is involved, but recently purchased a 9 foot Genesis (Walker Bay) inflatable. With this monster sitting, inflated and assembled, in our dining room last evening, it suddenly occurred to me how much like a very large PFD this dinghy is, which has me reconsidering my standard MOB routine. No thoughts, but a couple Stories: First, many single-handers will trail a floating line behind them in case they fall overboard. One guy I knew was trailing iirc 100ft of line when he fell in. Swimming as fast as he could, he JUST made it to the end of the line. Now he tows 200 ft... (in open conditions, of course! In a crowded waterway that line is guaranteed to foul in someone's prop...) Second, I was running "chaseboat" for some canoeists paddling across the Strait, and when changing crews we decided to use an inflatable: we'd trail the inf. back to the canoe, they'd roll into it, we'd pull it up, and they'd get into Far Cove. Worked OK until the wind came up... One paddler swore her handprint was imbedded in the stern of Far Cove when she was fending it off while trying to board, and the whole procedure was abandoned when a gust of wind picked the dinghy up and dropped it upside-down on top of the canoe. (we just didn't worry about scratched gelcoat and got everybody off the canoe at that point) And that was just 20-25knots in Georgia Strait! druid As to the trailing line bit, we did that on a run down the coast of Cal to Cabo, but we only did it at night. During the day there were plenty of crew on deck, but at night only two people. They were supposed to be tethered, but you never know. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
In article ,
"KLC Lewis" wrote: But this inflatable dink has me rethinking things. By towing the dink when weather allows, if crew should go overboard the dinghy could be cut loose immediately. Sounded good at first, but in the time I could reach the painter and untie it from both cleats, I would have crash-tacked Xan and been half way back. Additionally, I wouldn't be able to keep an eye on the COB. But Xan turns on a dime at any speed. All I have to do is lean a hip into the tiller, leaving my hands free. A more stately craft with more crew might consider the option though. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Mob Rules
I'd like to play devil's advocate here, so I'll offer whatever
criticisms of the scheme I can, but in truth I do not really have any expert opinion about this, I'm just speculating. I think that was what you were asking for, please forgive me if I misunderstood. So, from the home office in sunny California, the top ten reasons why I think this might not work... 1) Trailing a dingy is often untenable during rough conditions, exactly the time you'd like to incorporate the "quick release" system you proposed. 2) The dingy would need some form of covering to protect it from becoming swamped, thereby reducing its effectiveness as a "life raft" for the MOB. 3) The overall amount of drag the dingy would add to the vessel's progress over the entire passage would not compensate the practical gain of using this approach over a "life sling" or other similar device. 4) You increase the chances of fouling the prop or rudder by continuously towing a dingy, thereby offsetting any benefits you might have gained. 5) The dingy might be better employed as an additional search and rescue vehicle, especially if the MOB is incapacitated and/or unable to place themselves back on board. 6) The dingy could be lost during the attempted rescue, thereby greatly endangering the rest of the crew should the vessel flounder. 7) The dingy could act to further injure the MOB, complicating an already difficult situation. 8) Even if the MOB could self rescue, there is still the very real possibility that the dingy would be overturned again. 9) Bringing the dingy back on board would require some form of winching system in any kind of weather. This could complicate the boat layout or its maneuverability. 10) It just looks funny. KLC Lewis wrote: But this inflatable dink has me rethinking things. By towing the dink when weather allows, if crew should go overboard the dinghy could be cut loose immediately. This would provide conscious MOB with a boat to swim towards, and give rescue crew another marker (though one with more windage) to help with locating the missing crew. The floating line in the water would also give the MOB something to grab, and its streaming direction would offer clues as to the current and rate of drift, assuming it's not being trailed behind a wind-driven dink. And, of course, trailing a dinghy in the water in fair weather could become a handful if the wind picks up. Any thoughts? |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... I think I'm going to try a variation on one of the previously-mentioned ideas: Short painter (three boat lengths, or 100 feet for good measure) but additional MOB line (same polypropylene or other floating line) on a spool. Quick release on the spool would allow the rest of the painter (as MOB line) to pay out while the boat encircles the MOB. I think it's worth experimenting with. The inflatable stays attached to the boat, as does the line. How are you planning on trying it? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Oh, I figure I'll pick up an expendable crewman at the marina and toss them overboard. That's what Captain Kirk would do. |
Mob Rules
"AMPowers" wrote in message ... I'd like to play devil's advocate here, so I'll offer whatever criticisms of the scheme I can, but in truth I do not really have any expert opinion about this, I'm just speculating. I think that was what you were asking for, please forgive me if I misunderstood. So, from the home office in sunny California, the top ten reasons why I think this might not work... 1) Trailing a dingy is often untenable during rough conditions, exactly the time you'd like to incorporate the "quick release" system you proposed. 2) The dingy would need some form of covering to protect it from becoming swamped, thereby reducing its effectiveness as a "life raft" for the MOB. 3) The overall amount of drag the dingy would add to the vessel's progress over the entire passage would not compensate the practical gain of using this approach over a "life sling" or other similar device. 4) You increase the chances of fouling the prop or rudder by continuously towing a dingy, thereby offsetting any benefits you might have gained. 5) The dingy might be better employed as an additional search and rescue vehicle, especially if the MOB is incapacitated and/or unable to place themselves back on board. 6) The dingy could be lost during the attempted rescue, thereby greatly endangering the rest of the crew should the vessel flounder. 7) The dingy could act to further injure the MOB, complicating an already difficult situation. 8) Even if the MOB could self rescue, there is still the very real possibility that the dingy would be overturned again. 9) Bringing the dingy back on board would require some form of winching system in any kind of weather. This could complicate the boat layout or its maneuverability. 10) It just looks funny. Worthy of consideration, all. Thanks for your thoughts! :-) |
Mob Rules
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... I think I'm going to try a variation on one of the previously-mentioned ideas: Short painter (three boat lengths, or 100 feet for good measure) but additional MOB line (same polypropylene or other floating line) on a spool. Quick release on the spool would allow the rest of the painter (as MOB line) to pay out while the boat encircles the MOB. I think it's worth experimenting with. The inflatable stays attached to the boat, as does the line. How are you planning on trying it? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Oh, I figure I'll pick up an expendable crewman at the marina and toss them overboard. That's what Captain Kirk would do. Ah... well, I know some people I could volunteer. g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then figure a way to get them aboard. Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way: 1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.) 2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?) launch whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold water), stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the OP idea is good news - dink's already there.) 3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in. 4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die. Difficult, eh? Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard. My conclusions: A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a strong crew. OK, fire away. JimB www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail. |
Mob Rules
The one thinh I would add to JimB's response ---
My golden rule has always been ---- If you go overboard, you are going to die. If you don't want to die, don't fall over board. IMHO, this is the best starting point. If you become too comfortable in the ability of the crew to do a recovery, you may get a bit too sloopy in your attention to safety. Having said that, yeah .... have a plan and practice it. "News f2s" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then figure a way to get them aboard. Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way: 1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.) 2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?) launch whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold water), stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the OP idea is good news - dink's already there.) 3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in. 4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die. Difficult, eh? Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard. My conclusions: A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a strong crew. OK, fire away. JimB www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail. |
Mob Rules
"Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message ... "Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB Charlie Sheen can do it. I saw it in a movie. |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message One thing to keep in mind is that everytime you add something to do, you in some way take away from the actual recovery. The best approach is to stop the boat next to the MOB, protecting them from the wind/waves. Then figure a way to get them aboard. Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way: Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However, they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this will extend their survival time. 1. Get them attached to the boat with whatever . . . then pull 'em to the bathing ladder, get 'em to climb up. ( I know, a whole lot of people will groan about the possibility of injury in waves. Injury is much better than losing your ability to climb thru chill due to hanging around. See next.) Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc. 2. If they can't climb the ladder (too cold? unfit? It's not there?) launch whatever dinghy you have (include the liferaft in this list in cold water), stabilise the yacht motion, let 'em climb in. (this is where the OP idea is good news - dink's already there.) Maybe... even probably, but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat... you have winches, halyards... use them. 3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in. Bad idea in most cases. 4. If you're the only one, decide whether it's two at risk, or one to die. Difficult, eh? If you do things right, you may not have to make this choice. Alternative 2. Attach rope (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Alternative 3. Pull 'em up (how? have a plan. TRY IT beforehand.) Most people find any alternatives fail with only two aboard. My conclusions: A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing on by themselves. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch out for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat. C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a strong crew. Every system/method must be practiced or it will not work. That's the bottom line. OK, fire away. JimB www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Gerald" wrote in message
... The one thinh I would add to JimB's response --- My golden rule has always been ---- If you go overboard, you are going to die. If you don't want to die, don't fall over board. IMHO, this is the best starting point. If you become too comfortable in the ability of the crew to do a recovery, you may get a bit too sloopy in your attention to safety. Having said that, yeah .... have a plan and practice it. For shorthanded or single-handed cruising or crusing at night on passages when most of the people are below, you should be attached to the boat at all times unless there's no wind and you're not moving. It's not a bad idea to ensure that there are always two people on deck, especially at night. I totally agree that complacency kills. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message
... "Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB Wasn't there some guy in his 70s who managed to haul himself out of the water when he got knocked off his boat... I seem to recall the story that he grabbed the boat as it went by and climbed back on. Or, is this a Usenet myth? g -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
Capt. JG wrote: Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch out for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat. Capt Sir, Due respect, but I have boarded the stern of a dive boat in the open Pacific (8' swells) with a 60lb pack on my back, and holding my dive fins in one hand. You are correct that you have to be very careful not to get bonked on the head. Still, in cold water if you will get the stern of that boat close to me and the ladder down, I'll take my chances instead of waiting for you to rig something else. (Also, on our Irwin it would be very difficult to hit someone with the prop unless they were completely under the boat.) Of course, the OP is right. You should consider that falling off the boat is like falling off of a 1000' cliff and treat it with the same respect. Don W. |
Mob Rules
Capt. JG wrote: "News f2s" wrote in message ... "Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB Wasn't there some guy in his 70s who managed to haul himself out of the water when he got knocked off his boat... I seem to recall the story that he grabbed the boat as it went by and climbed back on. Or, is this a Usenet myth? g I'd sure give it a try if I was the only one on deck when I went OB, but I sure wouldn't bet on the outcome. Then there was the tragedy a few years back between Fiji and New Zealand, where the guy fell overboard at night while his wife was asleep, and his tether was just long enough to let him drag and drown. The wife found him when she woke up in the morning. Don W. |
Mob Rules
News f2s wrote: "Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB I suspected it might not be easy. I've water skied a lot, and have tried to master the trick where you have the boat pull you on your chest sans skis. A lot of the good barefooters can do this. It is a lot harder than it looks ;-) Don W. |
Mob Rules
AMPowers wrote: I'd like to play devil's advocate here, so I'll offer whatever criticisms of the scheme I can, but in truth I do not really have any expert opinion about this, I'm just speculating. I think that was what you were asking for, please forgive me if I misunderstood. So, from the home office in sunny California, the top ten reasons why I think this might not work... 1) Trailing a dingy is often untenable during rough conditions, exactly the time you'd like to incorporate the "quick release" system you proposed. 2) The dingy would need some form of covering to protect it from becoming swamped, thereby reducing its effectiveness as a "life raft" for the MOB. 3) The overall amount of drag the dingy would add to the vessel's progress over the entire passage would not compensate the practical gain of using this approach over a "life sling" or other similar device. 4) You increase the chances of fouling the prop or rudder by continuously towing a dingy, thereby offsetting any benefits you might have gained. 5) The dingy might be better employed as an additional search and rescue vehicle, especially if the MOB is incapacitated and/or unable to place themselves back on board. 6) The dingy could be lost during the attempted rescue, thereby greatly endangering the rest of the crew should the vessel flounder. 7) The dingy could act to further injure the MOB, complicating an already difficult situation. 8) Even if the MOB could self rescue, there is still the very real possibility that the dingy would be overturned again. 9) Bringing the dingy back on board would require some form of winching system in any kind of weather. This could complicate the boat layout or its maneuverability. 10) It just looks funny. Well said sir. Don W. |
Mob Rules
"Don W" wrote in message
t... Capt. JG wrote: Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. Nope. Totally disagree off the stern. Off the beam, perhaps, but watch out for hand/foot damage from the space between the ladder and the boat. Capt Sir, Due respect, but I have boarded the stern of a dive boat in the open Pacific (8' swells) with a 60lb pack on my back, and holding my dive fins in one hand. So have I... I was typing/thinking about sailboats. I've been out in some big rollers (actually side-to-side rollers), and the best way we found to board was to wait until the rail came down low enough to grab it, then hold on until you're free of the water. (48' CT ketch) I don't think I would have wanted to try that if the rollers were from the stern to bow. You are correct that you have to be very careful not to get bonked on the head. Still, in cold water if you will get the stern of that boat close to me and the ladder down, I'll take my chances instead of waiting for you to rig something else. (Also, on our Irwin it would be very difficult to hit someone with the prop unless they were completely under the boat.) True, but if someone inadvertantly had the engine running or not fixed, it could happen. Much less chance abeam. Of course, the OP is right. You should consider that falling off the boat is like falling off of a 1000' cliff and treat it with the same respect. Don W. g Well, anything over 30 feet or so and it doesn't much matter. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Don W" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "News f2s" wrote in message ... "Don W" wrote in message news:ahbAh.9596 You might experiment with this during the summer by jumping overboard while the boat is going 7kts and seeing how hard it is to grab the dink as it goes by. I can tell you now, Don, that grabbing a dink doing 5 kts was impossible. Trying to drag my clothed body thru the water was far too much for my grip to last more than a few seconds. Quite apart from the hell of being rolled over by taking a bad grip in the first place . . . JimB Wasn't there some guy in his 70s who managed to haul himself out of the water when he got knocked off his boat... I seem to recall the story that he grabbed the boat as it went by and climbed back on. Or, is this a Usenet myth? g I'd sure give it a try if I was the only one on deck when I went OB, but I sure wouldn't bet on the outcome. Then there was the tragedy a few years back between Fiji and New Zealand, where the guy fell overboard at night while his wife was asleep, and his tether was just long enough to let him drag and drown. The wife found him when she woke up in the morning. Don W. We had one off the coast here... the guy fell off the bow... got hit by a mini-rogue wave and lost his footing. He was tethered but bonked his head. His wife panicked and couldn't figure a way to haul him in. By the time she got it together, he was dead from blunt trama. A good point of order on not having too long a tether and not having jacklines that run the entire length of the vessel. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way: Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However, they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this will extend their survival time. By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand was obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if it confused you. Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc. I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat up beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep enough ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the stern. And once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can control his position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder has to be positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be pulled forward (past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And very few beam ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough into the water to useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested, slide around the bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into. You've probably tried using the flexible steps to get into a life raft - b** useless. but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat... you have winches, halyards... use them. Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to rig the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling down and becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next, you've got to lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move in to assist, and you'll need him. I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations. Halyard with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up needing three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best to cut those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to lift the man (or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!) 3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in. Bad idea in most cases. I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two aboard, deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk versus one (in cold water) certainly lost. A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing on by themselves. Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the majority of MOB events. JimB www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ comparing the cruise areas of Europe, Greece in detail. |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message snip A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. B. A ladder's best, next best is a dinghy/liferaft in the water. C. Any other system which hasn't been rehearsed won't work without a strong crew. OK, fire away. I remember hearing a story some year ago, may have been a myth, may have been real. the coastguard in australia supposedly came upon a yacht, with 4 or 5 people around it, all drowned and no survivors..... it happened in calm waters. The theory was that they had all decided to go for a swim, without hooking up the swim ladder. they must have died off eventually one by one, tiring themselves out trying to get back aboard, realizing they couldnt. even if the story is just a myth, the image stuck in my head pretty well. Shaun |
Mob Rules
"News f2s" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message Very important in cold water, when speed is vital. Not so important in warm water when you've got time to experiment a bit. My way: Actually, accuracy in getting the boat next to the MOB and getting the boat stopped is more important than speed. It's better to slow things down and get it right, unless you're talking about arctic waters. In 55 degree water, the person will be a live quite a long time.. many hours. However, they'll be unable to help themselves in 20 minutes or so. The most important thing to have happen is for the person to have a PFD, since this will extend their survival time. By 'speed' I meant 'short time to recover MOB'. I thought that shorthand was obvious since I was referring to the cold water problem . . . sorry if it confused you. You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. Ladders on the stern are not a good way to recover someone, due to wave/boat slam. The boat is a lot more stable on the beam, with less chance of getting hit by the boat, the prop, etc. I guess you haven't tried this. Almost always, the boat will be making a small headway, so you'll be heaving your man in from astern. Set the boat up beam to the sea to minimise pitching. Even if it's pitching, a deep enough ladder (3 steps in the water) prevents him from going under the stern. And once he's got a pair of hands on the ladder sides, he can control his position in all but the most extreme conditions. A beam ladder has to be positioned by someone, which is a delay, the man has to be pulled forward (past that prop?), and the vessel pointed head to sea. And very few beam ladders (unless they're specially designed) go deep enough into the water to useful to a swimmer. Rope ladders, sometimes suggested, slide around the bilge and are very difficult to get your foot into. You've probably tried using the flexible steps to get into a life raft - b** useless. Actually, we have. The boat should not be making "small headway," rather it should be completely stopped. Small headway is how fast exactly? 1 kt? Even at that speed you'll be hard-pressed. You're talking about someone who at best is totally freaked from having been in the water. They're not going to be doing anything except scrambling to get back on, and that assumes they can actually do something useful. Most MOBs don't fall off in benign conditions. 10 foot seas with lots of chop and whitecaps are pretty extreme if you have someone in the water. Pulled forward?? You need to stop the boat between the waves/wind and the person ON THE BEAM. If your boat is set up properly, deploying a beam ladder (which I don't think is a good idea either) takes a matter of seconds to deploy. Instead of a ladder, use the rest of the boat's equipment to recover the person. As soon as you attach them to the boat, you have plenty of time. but why not just rig something with the tools available on the boat... you have winches, halyards... use them. Because it takes time, rehearsal and at least two on deck. You'll need one person to stabilise the boat's motion and hold it's heading. One more to rig the gear - and that'll take time, especialy if the MOB is chilling down and becoming clumsy at assisting you. OK, now he's attached. Next, you've got to lift him . . . now, at this stage the helm can usually move in to assist, and you'll need him. No, it doesn't take excessive time. Yes, it takes practice! You can and I have done all of this by myself. You don't need anyone to "stabilize" the boat. Here are the basic steps: 0) Calm down and help whoever remains on the boat to do the same (panic kills faster than cold water) 1) return to the MOB (several methods - note that using the Lifesling, you can't drag the person around) 2) position the boat abeam of the MOB with the MOB on the leeward side (this protects the person and makes it easier to recover them) 3) stop all forward motion of the boat (anything less than this will make it very difficult to recover the MOB) 4) attach the MOB to the boat (now they can't go anywhere) 5) drop all sails and secure the boom (you don't want jib sheets and booms whipping around and you don't want the possibility of sailing away) 6) recover the MOB (use a winch, etc. to make it easier on everyone) I've tried this (in the Med, nice and warm) with several variations. Halyard with four part tackle attached. Barrel sling. All methods ended up needing three on deck. Negotiating the lifelines was always an issue. Best to cut those free so the deck edge is clear, and there's not so far to lift the man (or woman - sorry if I'm not being PC here!) You're just wrong or not doing this right. ONE person can do this, but yes you have to practice. 3. When they can't climb in, send someone down to drag 'em in. Down? You should almost never put a second person in the water if that's what you mean. Bad idea in most cases. I meant, send someone down ito the dinghy to drag him in. It's much easier to get him on board from a dinghy, even if incapacitated. So, you're going to leave him in the water and rig halyards etc instead? Maybe OK in warmer water, but a right chill off otherwise. But of course, with only two aboard, deciding to go down into the dinghy means putting two at risk versus one (in cold water) certainly lost. The dink is going to be, at best, highly unstable. Putting someone in the dink is going to be tricky and dangerous except in the most benign conditions, as you pretty much said. A. It's foolish to go to sea in a boat which can't be boarded from the water by a fit person. Even a couple of feet of freeboard will prevent most people from climbing on by themselves. Precisely my point. All craft should be fitted with a ladder which can easily be set up from within the water. Even at anchor. Swimming ashore after falling in is not always an option. Even some marinas don't have ladders to get you out of the water . . . in fact, ladders cope with the majority of MOB events. Your point doesn't quite cut it. You need to use the boat to help you recover someone. A boarding ladder should be available when you go swimming, but it isn't good enough for an MOB recovery. Learn and practice the proper recovery methods for an MOB. That's what is going to save someone's life.... not getting a nice boarding ladder for the stern. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "News f2s" wrote in message ... (lots of good comments snipped, review thread if needed) My thought with the inflatable in the water, assuming the MOB is able to get into it, is that it gets them safely out of the water before the mothership can get itself properly positioned for recovery (inflatable still tethered to m.s.). In the inflatable, they can regain composure and calm down a bit (if possible after the big splash). Bringing the m.s. abeam the inflatable, the MOB is protected from the hard surface of the m.s.'s hull, and they can "stand on the water," as it were, making recovery easier. In theory, but I think a theory that is worth consideration. Most people can't levitate themselves to water level, so having that "step up" advantage could be very useful. |
Mob Rules
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "News f2s" wrote in message ... (lots of good comments snipped, review thread if needed) My thought with the inflatable in the water, assuming the MOB is able to get into it, is that it gets them safely out of the water before the mothership can get itself properly positioned for recovery (inflatable still tethered to m.s.). In the inflatable, they can regain composure and calm down a bit (if possible after the big splash). Bringing the m.s. abeam the inflatable, the MOB is protected from the hard surface of the m.s.'s hull, and they can "stand on the water," as it were, making recovery easier. In theory, but I think a theory that is worth consideration. Most people can't levitate themselves to water level, so having that "step up" advantage could be very useful. Well, I certainly agree. I guess my main beef is with the notion that a real MOB situation is going to allow for it. If it does, that's just so much gravy (ok, I'll stop with the food metaphores g). We were practiciing crew recovery in the SF bay. The conditions for the bay were fairly typical those few days... 20kts, 3/4 ft chop, 4 kts current running. We had 4 instructors, 3 students, one safety boat. One of the instructors went in the water wearing a wetsuit, fins and a PFD. The conditions were such that the buoys were straining in the current. It was up to each student in turn to do the complete recovery, nuts to bolts, dropping sails, etc., with no help from anyone else, which included hoisting the MOB into the boat to complete the drill. The MOB was instructed not to help, except to protect himself from getting hit with something... no help to the person attempting the recovery. The best time was from a woman who weighed about 100 lbs soaking wet, hauling the 200 lbs instructor back onto the deck. In fact, she over did it and had to lower him, because she winched him up too high initially. Time from in the drink to on deck was about 2.5 minutes. My best time was about 4.5. We all (instructors included, except for the guy in the water) did the drill multiple times over several days. Even though we had a safety boat, I would call this as real-world as you can get without risking lives. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mob Rules
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp |
Mob Rules
Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Ooo... That's cold! Don W. |
Mob Rules
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message
... On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:55:43 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You said "important in cold water." What I'm saying is that accept in arctic conditions, speed shouldn't be considered during a recovery. You should block it out of your mind as best as you can. Sure, shorter is better than longer, but even if it takes 30 minutes and you do it right, that's better than several passes of doing it wrong and saving 10 minutes. You're much more likely to injure the person in the water or the someone on the boat or the boat itself. I'll give you 3 minutes or forget it.. http://cobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/fixed/sad...an=3¶m=tmp Brrr... well, in any case, you'll still live longer than 3 minutes. Check the bottom of the following for an approximate guide: http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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