On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:56:25 -0800, Olecapt wrote:

snip

I guess you feel compelled to **** in these folks' corn flakes at this
time in an effort to be helpful. Just because we can say a thing, doesn't
mean we have to.

On Feb 11, 4:08 am, "mr.b" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:56:25 -0800, Olecapt wrote:


I guess you feel compelled to **** in these folks' corn flakes at this
time in an effort to be helpful. Just because we can say a thing, doesn't
mean we have to.


Dear mr.b:

As I said a few post ago.......................

"....And many wont speak up for a variety of reasons. And those who do
are
punished with frowns for not being a team player or raining on
somebodies parade....."

Or in this case where mr.b. said, "...I guess you feel compelled to
**** in these folks' corn flakes..." See how we punish the "Devils
Advocate." Another way we keep good info/intel from seeing the light
of day is, "...If you can not say anything good. Don't say anything
at all...." Or "there is no reson to be rude." Thats real common with
women, southerners, and the people over 60 generation. These are just
a few of several examples that tell people to keep your mouth shut
even if you know some one is about to FU or just FU. Very subtle how
we punish people back into line. Or as the many Asian cultures say,
"...the nail that stands up gets hammered down...." Personally I
recruit asshole opinion regularly just so I get EVERY option/opinion/
observation possible. Assholes have soemvery good advice at times and
are more than willing to share it. My advice: seek out assholes.

Did any of Skips so called friends stop and ask, "...when was the last
time you spent 2 consecutive nights at sea in small craft warnings? If
its been more than a year, why not go 50 miles out and sit in some
rough weather just to see how everything goes...." Did anybody say
that?!?!?! Why not?!? If not, you aint no friend! People who are truly
Good Friends wont let the people who they care about go diddy bopping
down the blissful trail of destruction.

I say we need more cornflake ****ers, parade rainers, and you just
aint a team player types in our life.
Ya its a damn shame they ran their boat on reef. So give them a hug
and a helping hand. But NEVER avoid the reason how they got there.
Some reader hear might LEARN somthing!
Bob

Bob wrote:
I say we need more cornflake ****ers, parade rainers, and you just
aint a team player types in our life.

Bob,
Constructive criticism can be given in a positive manner. In the Pig's
case, mistakes were certainly made and Skip has been the first one to
admit that. In fact, he has bent over backwards to analyze everything
that happened while it is still fresh in his mind and share his
conclusions with us. He has been frank and open with the events that
led up to the grounding and the mistakes he sees that were made.

I've never been in a boat in that part of the world, so I refrain from
forming any opinions based on the local conditions, but I have done a
fair amount of double handed cruising (17,000+ miles in the last 2
years). From my perspective, the primary problem that led up to the
grounding was that Lydia was not yet a full partner in the team when it
came to running the boat. Specifically in her understanding of
navigating with the chart plotter. Skip, himself admits this.

...since she'd not been monitoring it,
and making range adjustments to look ahead and also in detail at where we
were headed by zooming in along the intended route - she really couldn't
comprehend...

A major contributing factor seems to be a reluctance to get out of the
cockpit and reef the main. With more on-the-water experience, I suspect
it would have been reefed much earlier, thus allowing them to stay on a
more optimal course. By letting the boat stand more upright, it would
also have reduced the fatigue factor among the crew of the Pig.

I think that what this incident points up most of all is the need for
both members of a double handed crew to be comfortable performing all
tasks: navigating, reefing, trimming the sails, anchoring, avoiding
traffic, etc.. Further, they should be comfortable performing the
various evolutions on the boat in all conditions. The difficulty is in
acquiring these abilities without actually getting out there and doing it.

In retrospect, perhaps it would have been wise to take a few more baby
steps with the boat once it was finally ready (day sails, some easy
coastal cruising, etc.) before taking off on a multi-day leg in
challenging waters so early in the adventure.

We've all made mistakes and most of us have been lucky and gotten away
with them without major consequences. Skip and Lydia were not so
fortunate and their lessons came at a very expensive cost. I'm just
thankful no one was hurt.

- Dan

On 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

But NEVER avoid the reason how they got there.
Some reader hear might LEARN somthing!

The lessons are there for all to see.

No need to belabor the obvious.

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, Bob graced the ethernet with:

yadda, yadda, yadda

snip

psst Bob...switch to decaf, and take some time to look up the 'tact' in
the dictionary. Skip and Lydia drove their boat onto the rocks, not you
and the olecapt. The last thing they need right now is a couple of
armchair admirals telling them about their competence.
Grow a brain.

I have the reguired hours to have an opinion. I am also going to drop the
thread in that I think Skip's account is a good first step.

Note that I picked up on it because we were ducking the issue. They should
not have gone as manned. The problem was that Lydia was not yet blooded.
She did not have the experience of hard weather and she was prone to sea
sickness. So Skip was in fact a single hander with an assistant, He failed
to behave as such and may have lost his boat as a result.

I don't believe the chant of both crew members can do everything. Almost
never happens. Sometimes the Lady is the Captain...but almost always the
guy is the muscle. The Ladies stand watch capably and that makes it all
work. Sure there are some couples were she is fully as capable as he...but
that is not the primary pattern.

And there is nothing wrong with only one muscle person. Works fine. You
set up for it. You go to sleep with a configuration that is almost certain
to let you get four hours and clear instructions to wake you if it ain't
working. In bad conditions you sleep in the cockpit a half hour at a time.


"mr.b" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, Bob graced the ethernet with:

yadda, yadda, yadda

snip

psst Bob...switch to decaf, and take some time to look up the 'tact' in
the dictionary. Skip and Lydia drove their boat onto the rocks, not you
and the olecapt. The last thing they need right now is a couple of
armchair admirals telling them about their competence.
Grow a brain.

"gospel_truthy" wrote in news:VvPzh.9692
:

And there is nothing wrong with only one muscle person.

I disagree, wholeheartedly. There must be at LEAST two muscle persons
aboard when that boat passes through the harbor entrance. If you sail
with one and one breaks a finger around a winch, you end up with ZERO and
sailing with ZERO muscle persons is just plain stupid.

TWO.....minimum.

Test it for yourself. Pick a relatively bad day...raining, 25 knots,
4' seas increasing. Sit down in the cockpit and say to her, "I just
broke my leg when it got fouled in the jib sheet coming back aft from
shortening sail." From that point on, moan and groan and beg her to help
splint your leg and sail the boat as you are in agony.

Run the test for 6 hours to view the results. You're unconcious after
the first 30 minutes, so at that point SHUT UP and quit telling her what
to do and how to do it. Unconcious captains are really quiet, you know.
No frowning and motioning, either....NO CHEATING THE TEST.

No warnings before the test, either....it has to be totally unprepared
for out of your normal routine. Before the boat broaches or goes
aground, terminate the test and declare it a failure. No bitching or
****ing at her, it's YOUR FAULT for not preparing for this scenario, not
hers. YOU made this stupid decision to go out with one muscleman.

WHEN she starts looking at motorhomes, take that as a signal you'll be
soon singlehanding and needing a new MUSCLEMAN to sail with.....

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

In article ,
Larry wrote:

Test it for yourself. Pick a relatively bad day...raining, 25 knots,
4' seas increasing. Sit down in the cockpit and say to her, "I just
broke my leg when it got fouled in the jib sheet coming back aft from
shortening sail."


Doesn't have to be so dramatic. Every once in a while, I simply announce
I'm taking a nap and let her carry on however she wants to.

Key, though, is that I'm not influencing her decisions in any way. She
can't sail worth a darn if I'm looking over her shoulder, but is fairly
adequate if she has complete control.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote in news:jerelull-6F5333.19110312022007
@news.bellatlantic.net:

Doesn't have to be so dramatic. Every once in a while, I simply announce
I'm taking a nap and let her carry on however she wants to.



But, I'd bet you DON'T do that in the conditions I've set for the test...

On a nice day the Amel will sail itself all day if you want to go in one
direction. My test specs are in NASTY weather when you'd break that leg.

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!