On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:03:10 -0500, Larry wrote:

Put in Marathon, FL and take a
look at it. What a TERRIBLE place to go sailing! This area would be
awful in a flats boat! Running aground with a 6' keel is inevitable, not
just a chance. Google Earth is free from http://earth.google.com/ Look
at the bottom where YOU sail.

It's not quite that bad. We've run both north and south from Marathon
never seeing less than 7 feet or so. You do have to be careful
however and stay very close to your route. Sailing it would not be
advisable except in ideal conditions.

If there is one single lesson to be learned from this, I think it is
to be *very* wary of becoming fatigued, particularly in bad conditions
and close quarters. I've had some personal experience with this and
it is all to easy to find yourself making questionable decisions after
you've been on the go for a day or two. I don't want to sound like
I'm second guessing, but there are any number of good places to seek
shelter from an easterly coming south along Florida's west coast.

There was a case in the northeast a number of years ago where a woman
was sailing transatlantic from England to Newport, Rhode Island.
After several days of fog and rough weather she made a navigational
error, mistaking Pt Judith Light for Brenton Tower. After
successfully sailing over 3,000 miles, she parked the boat on the
rocks at Pt Judith.

Just a very quickie for perspective:

We left Sunday morning ~11, wing and wing to the Sunshine Skyway at 7
knots. Forecasts for the entire week we left (I'd been monitoring
them for a month) were for 10-15NE the entire way down - perfect for
our cruise down. It was so perfect we kept going rather than divert
from offshore. We stood to make it in under 30 hours, before dark the
second day. Rarely dropped under 6, mostly in the 8s, and even
flirted with 10 KSOG briefly.

Things went to hell in a handbasket in a hurry. Winds built to 20+,
then got worse, with matching seas. Dropped all sails and attempted
to motor toward Cape Sable. Absolutely awful. No progress whatever in
~4 hours.

Raised to third reef main only, stabilized and sailing fine, if wobbly
due to the following seas. Wanted to sail around to nowhere until
dark got finished (the foregoing was at ~7PM), considered going around
Key West.

Delivery captain in yard we left had given us detailed instructions,
having done it over 200 times. This group and the dozen or so lists I
am on, during my extensive search for info last year (because I was
concerned about the feasibility) had countless respondents saying we'd
be just fine and to quit worrying, generally accusing us of over-
researching everything we ever did on this boat, and accept what we
were told, which was it was very doable, no problem, etc.. I've now
come to regard local knowledge as suspect, if not malicious, as, this
and too many instances have proven to be not only inaccurate but
dangerously so.

Conditions worsened dramatically - a squall line came through about
10PM - and is what did us in, in addition to some operator and
equipment malfunction.

As is my wont, when the salt spray has been washed off (no dust to
settle) there will be a complete and candid assessment and report,
including hundreds of pictures on our gallery. For now, the insurance
company isn't ready to total it, but likewise nearly certainly won't
pay for all the repairs, and if my understanding of the policy is
accurate, will leave about a 25k shortfall on the removal (salvor's
fee was 30, policy looks to cover ~7, and then there was the emergency
midnight haulout at the yard, yada yada). Flying Pig most likely will
fly again,but now has a broken wing and a broken heart - but as yet
her spirit isn't broken!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, and hindsight is always 20-20. We're alive,
the boat is substantially intact, and there's nothing money can't fix.

On which subject, for those so inclined rather than finger-pointing,
an attorney in the Morgan sailnet list has set up a trust for us:

I've posted some traffic about that immediately following this post.
Think and do what you will in those regards - it's out of our hands,
but we know we are very well watched and watched over...

Sorry I can't do more right now - I"m pretty well over my head at the
moment...

L8R

Skip, interrupted

As referenced in the immediately prior post ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:
Date: Feb 8, 2007 12:22 AM
Subject: [morgan] Flying Pig Fund
To: morgan


Julia Morgan in

In a message dated 2/7/2007 1:46:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
writes:
Fellow Morganeers,



I have been following, along with you, Flying Pig's progress over
these many months, and the tragedy that occurred this week.



I have NOT talked with Skip, and I am not asking his permission to do
this, but I'm doing it anyway.



I'm a lawyer, have a trust account and a most capable and willing
assistant, Karen. We will accept donations for the Flying Pig's fine
crew in their time of need. Regardless of how financially secure they
may be or what insurance consequences may (eventually) entail, salvage
and all, there is one thing we can all relate to, and it's the $$$
every one of us would need SAP in such a tragic circumstance.



I have established a Trust Fund account in the name of "Flying Pig."
As of today, it contains $100. It is my intention to collect whatever
anyone wishes to donate and forward the funds to our friends heading
for Marathon.



We don't do credit cards here, but if you would like to help out
Flying Pig's crew - anonymously - you can send a check payable to:



"Flying Pig, c/o Wm. V. Hoyle Jr., Esq."



Each of those checks we receive will be acknowledged to the donor(s),
and, come Hell or high water, will go to Skip and the admiral as soon
as I can track them down. I can't fix broken bones, restore lost
loved ones or make tragedies go away. I have striven, however, to
improve the quality of life for the past quarter century for those who
have suffered a loss. As I said, I'm only a lawyer.



Our mailing address is:



William V. Hoyle Jr., P.C.

10401 Warwick Blvd.

Newport News, VA 23601

Office phone: 757.596-1850



With my best wishes to all,



Bill Hoyle

OI 33 Sunbird

Newport News, VA



__/) O

~~~~




Tom CPA
Skipper of The Julia Morgan
Julia Morgan was the Architect that designed Hearst Castle - The name
was picked by daughter honor given to her because she will inherit the
boat when I can no longer sail.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And...



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rich Shapiro
Date: Feb 8, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: [morgan] [morganowners] Donations for Skip and Lydia
To: morgan

That all sounds wonderful. I'm hoping that as Skip and Lydia's
situation
clarifies and settles, it will continue to develop in a positive
direction.

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: habeas ]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 6:21 AM
To: morgan
Subject: [morgan] [morganowners] Donations for Skip and Lydia

Thanks greatly, Karl. This should allow for a fast-track and
convenient
way for those who wish to contribute by credit card or debit --
whatever
PayPal accepts. I'll be happy for forward anything received from
anyone.

It was my intention to simply send Skip and Lydia a Cashier's check
from the
anonymous collective, but if anyone wishes for me to forward any
comments,
name(s) or the amount of donation, please let me know and I'll do
that. My
thought was that with one or two anonymous cheques to them, there
would be
no way -- or temptation or sense of obligation -- for Skip and Lydia
to
accept the money as anything other than a GIFT of caring from their
seafaring family.

Karen and I intend to acknowledge to each contributor what amount(s)
he or
she has contributed, for tax or other purposes, so please include your
name,
address, phone number and e-mail with either a credit card donation
through
Karl's PayPal or cheque sent to:

Our mailing address is:

William V. Hoyle Jr., P.C.
10401 Warwick Blvd.
Newport News, VA 23601
Office phone: 757.596-1850

My personal cell phone is 757.570-1970 (This is how to reach ME).

Karl Burton's e-mail address, for PayPal contributions, is:



Has anyone been able to post this info on any other list-servers?

With thanks to all,

Bill Hoyle
OI 33 Sunbird
Newport News, VA 23601

_/) O
~~~



-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Burton [mailto: ]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:09 AM
To:
Subject: [morgan] [morganowners] Donations for Skip and Lydia

I have a Paypal account that is set up to be able to accept credit
card
payments, as well as the usual bank transfer type payment. If someone
wants to make a payment that way, they can go to paypal and send a
payment
to . Be sure to enter in the notes/comments area
anything
that you want passed on, or identification for me to pass on.

There will be some fee I'll have to pay for taking credit card
payments -
it isn't that much, and I'll cover it so that your donation will
pass
through at full value. I'll send any money I collect, and the donor
information, on to habeas and he can combine it with the checks he
gets for
the trust fund.







At 10:35 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:

I know from a post on the other list that the gentleman setting up the
trust
is not willing to deal with Paypal, as the issue has already been raised.

There is another issue with Paypal: to withdraw more than a small amount
($400, I think) a month, one has to have a commercial grade account and a
"verified" bank account. The commercial grade account levies transaction
fees of about 2.5% on received payments. Also, it takes a week or so to
verify a bank account.

If Skip and Lydia do want to post a Paypal address, a list of objects they
need that other Morganeers can donate, or an address to send contributions
directly, I would welcome it.

Rich
Moderator

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto: ] On
Behalf Of sv.horizon
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:19 PM
To:
Subject: [morganowners] Donations for Skip and Lydia

PayPal is a quick and easy way to send money to anyone with an email
address. It is a part of eBay and very safe. The receiving party does
not have to have a PayPal account at the time the money is sent. You
can sign up for an account at https://www.paypal.com/
https://www.paypal.com/ and use a CC or
bank account to draw from. I have used it for years for ebay and to
send money to individuls and me


This wasn't my or our idea; as seen, it was done before we knew about
it. None the less, I have no doubt it will be helpful. More than our
life's savings are invested in Flying Pig - it literally represents
the only material goods we have left, having given away our car as we
left, and long ago having given away everything else not on the boat.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at and


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip and Lydia,

Thanks for your report. I can't imagine anyone not taking off under the
conditions you reported -- an apparently perfect weather window? Who
wouldn't jump at the chance? I'm sorry things went south on you, but am very
glad that you are both alive and well, and unless I miss my guess, with
spirits slightly damp, but far from broken.

I hope that the insurance company comes through, and urge you to fight for a
favorable outcome, however that is best defined. Flying Pig back on the wing
with a happy crew would make me a very happy camper. :-)

Karin

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
Just a very quickie for perspective:

We left Sunday morning ~11, wing and wing to the Sunshine Skyway at 7
knots. Forecasts for the entire week we left (I'd been monitoring
them for a month) were for 10-15NE the entire way down - perfect for
our cruise down. It was so perfect we kept going rather than divert
from offshore. We stood to make it in under 30 hours, before dark the
second day. Rarely dropped under 6, mostly in the 8s, and even
flirted with 10 KSOG briefly.

Things went to hell in a handbasket in a hurry. Winds built to 20+,
then got worse, with matching seas. Dropped all sails and attempted
to motor toward Cape Sable. Absolutely awful. No progress whatever in
~4 hours.

Raised to third reef main only, stabilized and sailing fine, if wobbly
due to the following seas. Wanted to sail around to nowhere until
dark got finished (the foregoing was at ~7PM), considered going around
Key West.

Delivery captain in yard we left had given us detailed instructions,
having done it over 200 times. This group and the dozen or so lists I
am on, during my extensive search for info last year (because I was
concerned about the feasibility) had countless respondents saying we'd
be just fine and to quit worrying, generally accusing us of over-
researching everything we ever did on this boat, and accept what we
were told, which was it was very doable, no problem, etc.. I've now
come to regard local knowledge as suspect, if not malicious, as, this
and too many instances have proven to be not only inaccurate but
dangerously so.

Conditions worsened dramatically - a squall line came through about
10PM - and is what did us in, in addition to some operator and
equipment malfunction.

As is my wont, when the salt spray has been washed off (no dust to
settle) there will be a complete and candid assessment and report,
including hundreds of pictures on our gallery. For now, the insurance
company isn't ready to total it, but likewise nearly certainly won't
pay for all the repairs, and if my understanding of the policy is
accurate, will leave about a 25k shortfall on the removal (salvor's
fee was 30, policy looks to cover ~7, and then there was the emergency
midnight haulout at the yard, yada yada). Flying Pig most likely will
fly again,but now has a broken wing and a broken heart - but as yet
her spirit isn't broken!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, and hindsight is always 20-20. We're alive,
the boat is substantially intact, and there's nothing money can't fix.

On which subject, for those so inclined rather than finger-pointing,
an attorney in the Morgan sailnet list has set up a trust for us:

I've posted some traffic about that immediately following this post.
Think and do what you will in those regards - it's out of our hands,
but we know we are very well watched and watched over...

Sorry I can't do more right now - I"m pretty well over my head at the
moment...

L8R

Skip, interrupted

Skip,

So sorry to hear about your misfortune. We're
very glad that you and Lydia are ok. Things will
look better a few days from now.

Don W.

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Just a very quickie for perspective:

We left Sunday morning ~11, wing and wing to the Sunshine Skyway at 7
knots. Forecasts for the entire week we left (I'd been monitoring
them for a month) were for 10-15NE the entire way down - perfect for
our cruise down. It was so perfect we kept going rather than divert
from offshore.

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Just a very quickie for perspective:

We left Sunday morning ~11, wing and wing to the Sunshine Skyway at 7
knots. Forecasts for the entire week we left (I'd been monitoring
them for a month) were for 10-15NE the entire way down - perfect for
our cruise down. It was so perfect we kept going rather than divert
from offshore. We stood to make it in under 30 hours, before dark the
second day. Rarely dropped under 6, mostly in the 8s, and even
flirted with 10 KSOG briefly.

Things went to hell in a handbasket in a hurry. Winds built to 20+,
then got worse, with matching seas. Dropped all sails and attempted
to motor toward Cape Sable. Absolutely awful. No progress whatever in
~4 hours.

Raised to third reef main only, stabilized and sailing fine, if wobbly
due to the following seas. Wanted to sail around to nowhere until
dark got finished (the foregoing was at ~7PM), considered going around
Key West.

Delivery captain in yard we left had given us detailed instructions,
having done it over 200 times. This group and the dozen or so lists I
am on, during my extensive search for info last year (because I was
concerned about the feasibility) had countless respondents saying we'd
be just fine and to quit worrying, generally accusing us of over-
researching everything we ever did on this boat, and accept what we
were told, which was it was very doable, no problem, etc.. I've now
come to regard local knowledge as suspect, if not malicious, as, this
and too many instances have proven to be not only inaccurate but
dangerously so.

Conditions worsened dramatically - a squall line came through about
10PM - and is what did us in, in addition to some operator and
equipment malfunction.

As is my wont, when the salt spray has been washed off (no dust to
settle) there will be a complete and candid assessment and report,
including hundreds of pictures on our gallery. For now, the insurance
company isn't ready to total it, but likewise nearly certainly won't
pay for all the repairs, and if my understanding of the policy is
accurate, will leave about a 25k shortfall on the removal (salvor's
fee was 30, policy looks to cover ~7, and then there was the emergency
midnight haulout at the yard, yada yada). Flying Pig most likely will
fly again,but now has a broken wing and a broken heart - but as yet
her spirit isn't broken!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, and hindsight is always 20-20. We're alive,
the boat is substantially intact, and there's nothing money can't fix.

On which subject, for those so inclined rather than finger-pointing,
an attorney in the Morgan sailnet list has set up a trust for us:

I've posted some traffic about that immediately following this post.
Think and do what you will in those regards - it's out of our hands,
but we know we are very well watched and watched over...

Sorry I can't do more right now - I"m pretty well over my head at the
moment...

L8R

Skip, interrupted

Don't know where you got your weather Skip, but the GRIB file I got from
sailnet.docs on 02/03 show that at by 7 pm 02/05 the wind was forecast
to be NE at 25 and seas of 7-8 feet. On a two day passage I always look
for four days of good weather.
krj

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

Just a very quickie for perspective:

Most of the time when we get in trouble it is because of Bob wanting
to go and persuading me against my better judgment. We've been lucky
in that each time we've made it through. We lost a solar panel and
almost lost the dinghy and motor once. And we got water into the aft
cabin on one occasion (over the side). And on one occasion early on,
I was at the wheel and came into the wind and insisted that he furl
the sails. But as I said, we've been lucky.

The main result of my caution is to have Bob periodically accuse me of
being chicken. And I guess I am, but that's OK.