Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:47:20 -0500, krj
wrote:

They had planned to go from St. Petersburg to Marathon. Rather than sail
around Key West, most people opt to take Big Spanish channel. The
entrance to the channel is about 3 nm NNE of the Content Keys. there is
a lighted marker (G57) at the channel entrance. That's the only lighted
marker until you get east of No Name Key. Most people I know do not
attempt to run this channel at night. They wait at Cape Sable and leave
at first light in order to run the channel in daylight. According to my
GRIB file the wind at 1AM Feb 6 was 25-30 KN from the NE with 7-8 ft.
seas. Most likely, if he turned SE at G57, he didn't allow for the
strong wind, missed "G55" (unlighted) and ended up on Harbor Key Bank
(1-2 ft.).
krj

Skip's boat draws 6 1/2 feet which is too much for Big Spanish channel
in my opinion, especially at night. I draw 5 1/2 and don't take Big
Spanish even during the day. The channel south from Bullard Bank and
Red Bay Bank into Moser Channel is much deeper and easier to
negotiate. I pointed that out to Skip several times on this group.

http://tinyurl.com/3b8c42

I wasn't aware that Skip's boat drew 6 1/2 feet. In that case you are
correct. The area south of Big Spanish Key can be only 5 feet. Rocky
channel south of Bullfrog Banks would be much better, however it isn't a
marked channel. But with waypoints programmed into the GPS it isn't hard
to follow. We only draw 4 feet but also use Rocky Channel.
krj

Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:47:20 -0500, krj
wrote:

They had planned to go from St. Petersburg to Marathon. Rather than sail
around Key West, most people opt to take Big Spanish channel. The
entrance to the channel is about 3 nm NNE of the Content Keys. there is
a lighted marker (G57) at the channel entrance. That's the only lighted
marker until you get east of No Name Key. Most people I know do not
attempt to run this channel at night. They wait at Cape Sable and leave
at first light in order to run the channel in daylight. According to my
GRIB file the wind at 1AM Feb 6 was 25-30 KN from the NE with 7-8 ft.
seas. Most likely, if he turned SE at G57, he didn't allow for the
strong wind, missed "G55" (unlighted) and ended up on Harbor Key Bank
(1-2 ft.).
krj

Skip's boat draws 6 1/2 feet which is too much for Big Spanish channel
in my opinion, especially at night. I draw 5 1/2 and don't take Big
Spanish even during the day. The channel south from Bullard Bank and
Red Bay Bank into Moser Channel is much deeper and easier to
negotiate. I pointed that out to Skip several times on this group.

http://tinyurl.com/3b8c42

Is his mast short enough to get under the Moser Channel bridge?

From:
To: "Flying Pig Log"
Subject: [Flying Pig Log] Fears, Tears and Broken Dreams

Here's the e-mail that I received earlier today:

Sunday, February 04, 2007
4.13 pm
Off the coast of Longboat Key, FL


I'm sitting at the helm of our boat while Skip takes a nap below. All
is well. The engine is off and we're on a perfect beam reach, heading
160 degrees, bound roughly for Boca Grande.


We left St. Pete this morning at 11 am having had our water pump break
and prevent us from leaving last night as we'd wanted to. I had put
on my Scopolamine patch at 4 pm yesterday, prepared this time for
seasickness. It works, and I don't feel drowsy either.


It's grey out here and the water is very green. The wind is cool; I
have sweat pants on and two sweatshirts, but I'm comfortable. No
rain, just grey, and no other boats in sight. I wonder if that's
because it's Sunday.


So, here we are, day one of the rest of our lives, having completed
the preparation for this adventure we've been planning for nearly 8
years. I think this was the first time that I set a goal in my life,
other than very short term ones of less than a month. And when we
both started working towards this dream, it seemed so incredibly
impossible. (Hence the boat's name, Flying Pig.) I mean, I just
hadn't met anyone who had done this before, personally. Of course
there are a zillion people doing it every day, and now that we've
stepped into their world, we feel well and truly surrounded by them,
their experiences and their wisdom, their generosity and friendship.
They are the coolest bunch of people. Not all of them, however (in
fact, most of them have not) given up their homes, cars etc and kicked
the System. Most of them have one foot still inside it, and I hear
that this makes for a lot of frustration. One shouldn't sail on
deadlines, for instance; it always leads to trouble. But when you
have a foot in the real world, and you've only got "x" weeks vacation
time to take off in your boat, you do have deadlines. It's much
easier to do it this way - nothing but the boat. Aside from being in
George Town in the Bahamas to pick up my son, Samuel and his
girlfriend, Jana on March 1st, we don't really have any more agendas
and deadlines to meet, which is good.


Making 6.5 knots now; I can hear the wind in the sails, and the sheets
(sail lines) are creaking. It's absolutely wonderful, but I don't
know how people do it all alone. You'd really have to be in love with
your boat, in love with yourself, in love with the sea, and fall
outside of the People Lover category.


So - now that we're at the end of this 8 year goal (marked by leaving
the boat yard today and taking off on our Journey), I wonder if we'll
make a new one. Can you make it through life happily without any
goals? If you don't have them, does that make you a Drifter? Or, are
you just one of those people who live each day at a time as if it's
your last? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'll let you know
when I figure it out.


Tuesday, February 6, 2007
Red Cross Building,
Key West, FL
5.30 pm


I look back at this mail I wrote when I was on watch, and wish I could
go back there and rewind the last couple of days and start again.


As we sailed further south, the weather got worse, and we were out far
enough in the Gulf that there seemed nothing else to do but go on, on
a reefed mainheet. The seas were 8' and the wind was 20+ knots - just
a mess out there. We set our course to get near the channel marker
that would take us through to Marathon, but which we wouldn't enter
until daylight. Somehow, we were blown off course and in one great
noisy crunch, went from 25 ft depth, (according to the depth finder),
to 4 feet of water in a second, being chewed up by the reef north of
Marathon.


The Coast Guard stayed with us by radio every few minutes to reassess
damage; we weren't taking on any water because the boat was lying on
her side in 4 ft of angry waves. That was the good news; if it had
happened out somewhere deep, no doubt we would have sunk. TowBoat US
got to us fairly quickly to determine that he couldn't do anything
about the boat, nor could he get close enough in the weather to get us
off the boat, and so 4 hours after the wreck, the Coast Guard
airlifted us out. I looked down from the basket that was lifting me to
the helicopter, and saw our beloved Flying Pig, lying on her side
looking so dead and helpless. I can't get it out of my mind.


As a matter of course, the Coast Guard delivered us to the Hospital in
Key West, where Skip got checked out as a precaution because of his
heart condition. All OK there. The wonderful people at the hospital
gave us a room to crash in, and began to give us all sorts of
information on how to make it through homelessness, which,
effectively, we currently are. After feeding us breakfast, the
hospital called a cabbie, who refused money once he heard our story,
and delivered us to the Red Cross Building in Key West. The Red
Cross, which is represented by a wonderful man named Paul, is sending
us off to a Days Inn for a few days until we can reevaluate the boat's
damage and decide where to go from here. That's it, in a nutshell.


You can imagine that while we're physically unharmed, we're currently
still stunned, and grieving our Flying Pig. We know that her hull has
been broached (holed) but we don't know to what extent, and nor can we
find that out until a salvage vessel delivers her to a boat yard in
Marathon.


Tomorrow, we meet with the salvage guys first thing in the morning on
Big Pine Key, to go out on their huge landing craft vessel, try to get
some things off the boat and then try to tow her to safety without
capsizing her. We'll catch the bus from Key West up there first
thing.


All that whimsical chatter about not having a plan anymore. That
changed in a hurry.


In the end, Life is an Adventure. By the grace of God, we're fine,
and Homelessness is a state that I've never experienced before, and
will perhaps expand my perspective of the world. I mean, there are
tons of homeless people out there, and I've always wondered how they
manage to do it, why they don't just shoot themselves if it's that
awful. Maybe it isn't that awful; maybe a lot of them like it. Well,
I'm about to find all this stuff out. One more experience to chalk
up. :/


The ability to reach us from here on out is going to be iffy,
depending on where we are and whether we have any connection. I'll
try to keep you updated by email.


Please keep us in your prayers. We're feeling pretty bruised.


Love from Lydia and Skip


Wednesday, February 07, 2007
Days Inn, Key West
3.28 pm


I wasn't able to get any connection prior to this writing, to send out
news to you all. However, I'm now sitting in the Holiday Inn, a couple
of doors away from the Days Inn where the Red Cross have put us up,
where they have graciously helped me connect on their wifi.


Skip drove a rental car to Big Pine Key this morning to meet the
salvage guys and join them on their huge "carrier". They're going to
check out the boat, hot patch the holes, and try to bring her back to
Marathon (25 miles) without sinking her. At some point, the adjuster
will get involved too; in fact, he may be aboard with Skip and the
salvage skipper. I received a message at the motel a few hours ago,
that Skip may be out all night bringing the boat in, and not to worry
about his whereabouts. I know he's absolutely exhausted, even though
he got some hours of sleep last night.


I caught the bus to K-Mart and purchased some clothes for us with the
Red Cross voucher. What a wonderful organization they are; Paul and
Lise, their representatives here in Key West, bent over backwards to
help us. Anyway, just so you know, K-Mart has a whole different
sizing system from any other store I've ever shopped in, because I
know for a fact that I am NOT a size 4, and more like a size 8. So if
you want to feel good about your size, check out K-Mart. Meanwhile,
they are deplete of size 4's :/


Before I get carried away for hours and hours with this email, I'm
sending it out. I assure you that we are physically well, albeit,
mentally fatigued and emotionally broken at the moment, but I'm sure
things will improve once we can get a damage report.


Again, it's hard to reach us - we don't have a cell phone - but if
it's urgent, we are able to walk across to this Holiday Inn and hook
up to check or send out email. We will keep you posted as things
develop.


Love, Lydia

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

Here's the e-mail that I received earlier today:


Me too. I'm monitoring Skype with it set to alarm when Skip comes online
from the laptop at the motel. Nothing yet.

Sure glad they're OK.....

Larry
--
Democracy is when two wolves and a sheep vote on who's for dinner.
Liberty is when the sheep has his own gun.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:43:27 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Content Key is on the Gulf side, north of Big Pine, about halfway
between Key West and Marathon.

About 19 miles west of the rhumb line into Moser Channel and
Marathon. There was some mention of being "blown off course". We've
had 20 kt easterlies for the last week up until today, but 19 miles
is a big offset on a 120 mile reach south from Ft Myers. Something
must have gone seriously awry.


My thoughts also. I was studying charts of the area this morning
trying to figure out how they ended up at Comfort Keys -- hopefully
Skip will be able to get online soon and fill us in. I'm totally
baffled, and still somewhat in shock over this, and can't believe
their voyage may end so soon. Here's to the good ship Flying Pig and
her stalwart crew -- may they sail again!




Everyone should look at Google Earth of the area in The Keys. Content
Key is one of the barrier keys on the Gulf side. Google Earth's
satellite photography of this area has fantastic pictures of the sea bed
in all this shallow water. You can even see obstructions in the
"channels" all up and down The Keys.

My condolences to anyone who has a 6' draft keel sticking down into this
freak of nature. Best ways to see The Keys is by CAR!

Larry
--
Democracy is when two wolves and a sheep vote on who's for dinner.
Liberty is when the sheep has his own gun.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:26:56 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Actually Lydia wrote:

Before I get carried away for hours and hours with this email, I'm
sending it out. I assure you that we are physically well, albeit,
mentally fatigued and emotionally broken at the moment, but I'm sure
things will improve once we can get a damage report.

I wish Skip and Lydia had done that trip a little differently and
stopped off a few places along the way. We usually put in at Venice
or Boca Grande coming south from St Pete. Ft Myers or Marco Island
makes a good second stop.

We did a one day hop on January 12 from Marco to Key West with the
wind blowing 25+ out of the east. We took some of the worst rolls
we've ever experienced that day, and were plenty glad to get in before
dark.

I've been looking at the charts too. The only route that makes sense
for me is to have headed down the Rocky Channel which is just N of
Content Cay. The charts show that it carries 15' until you get N of
Little Spanish Cay at which point you've got 7+ feet. Unfortunately
this is virtually unmarked and who knows what the hurricanes have done
to it. This is an area that I would never pass unless I had great
light. It appears that it was around 5 PM when they went aground and
there wouldn't have been much light at that point.

I must admit that I also don't understand why they left when they did.
The NWS forecast was for 20-25 kts and 6-8' seas. I know that they
wanted to get going, but I always say:

"You can't pick the weather that you sail in, but you can pick the
weather that you leave in."

All in all this is a very sad day for them and my sympathies go out to
Skip & Lydia. I just wish them the best.

-- Geoff

Larry wrote in
:

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:43:27 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Content Key is on the Gulf side, north of Big Pine, about halfway
between Key West and Marathon.

About 19 miles west of the rhumb line into Moser Channel and
Marathon. There was some mention of being "blown off course". We've
had 20 kt easterlies for the last week up until today, but 19 miles
is a big offset on a 120 mile reach south from Ft Myers. Something
must have gone seriously awry.


My thoughts also. I was studying charts of the area this morning
trying to figure out how they ended up at Comfort Keys -- hopefully
Skip will be able to get online soon and fill us in. I'm totally
baffled, and still somewhat in shock over this, and can't believe
their voyage may end so soon. Here's to the good ship Flying Pig and
her stalwart crew -- may they sail again!




Everyone should look at Google Earth of the area in The Keys. Content
Key is one of the barrier keys on the Gulf side. Google Earth's
satellite photography of this area has fantastic pictures of the sea
bed in all this shallow water. You can even see obstructions in the
"channels" all up and down The Keys.

My condolences to anyone who has a 6' draft keel sticking down into
this freak of nature. Best ways to see The Keys is by CAR!

Larry

I lay awake last night thinking about Skip and Lydia and worrying that
people would mis-construe my comments. This event has really bothered
me and I just keep thinking about it. Believe me, I'm not trying to
second guess Skip's decisions or bash anyone. I've just been trying to
understand.

The first thing that confused me was where they were. I've only been up
and down that section of coast 2 times and I've never considered
approaching Marathon from the Gulf side. Maybe I would do it now with
30,000+ miles under my keel, but conditions would have to be perfect.
Not on my first real trip in the dark with 8' seas and 20+ kts of wind.

I just can't imagine the terror of going aground in those conditions.
I've gone aground in rather benign circumstances and know how much my
heart was pounding. With 8' seas, there must have been a huge surf line
and to be caught in that must have been incredibly scary.

I also can't imagine what it would be like to be hoisted off my
boat...my home...that I have lovingly worked on for years...while
watching the sea pound away at it. Every time that I've seen video of
this before, it's always been of people that I didn't know. This is
different. This is someone that I've corresponded with for years as he
worked on the boat.

I've been watching Skip's efforts for years and was cheering him on as
he got ready to leave. I was stunned when this happened. Maybe it's the
feeling that "there but for the grace of God go I." Anyone who has
spent enough time on the water can reflect upon poor choices that
they've made. Many times you get away with them relatively unscathed.
Rarely is it a single item that caused the event. Generally it's a
cascade effect. I mean, what would have happened if their water pump
hadn't broken and they left when they had planned? Maybe the same
thing...maybe not. Who knows?

Anyhow, my heart and sympathies go out to Skip and Lydia. Please let us
know what we can do to help.

-- Geoff


Geoff Schultz wrote in
6:

I've been looking at the charts too. The only route that makes sense
for me is to have headed down the Rocky Channel which is just N of
Content Cay. The charts show that it carries 15' until you get N of
Little Spanish Cay at which point you've got 7+ feet. Unfortunately
this is virtually unmarked and who knows what the hurricanes have done
to it. This is an area that I would never pass unless I had great
light. It appears that it was around 5 PM when they went aground and
there wouldn't have been much light at that point.

I must admit that I also don't understand why they left when they did.
The NWS forecast was for 20-25 kts and 6-8' seas. I know that they
wanted to get going, but I always say:

"You can't pick the weather that you sail in, but you can pick the
weather that you leave in."

All in all this is a very sad day for them and my sympathies go out to
Skip & Lydia. I just wish them the best.

-- Geoff

Larry wrote in
:

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 08:43:27 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Content Key is on the Gulf side, north of Big Pine, about halfway
between Key West and Marathon.

About 19 miles west of the rhumb line into Moser Channel and
Marathon. There was some mention of being "blown off course".
We've had 20 kt easterlies for the last week up until today, but 19
miles is a big offset on a 120 mile reach south from Ft Myers.
Something must have gone seriously awry.


My thoughts also. I was studying charts of the area this morning
trying to figure out how they ended up at Comfort Keys -- hopefully
Skip will be able to get online soon and fill us in. I'm totally
baffled, and still somewhat in shock over this, and can't believe
their voyage may end so soon. Here's to the good ship Flying Pig and
her stalwart crew -- may they sail again!




Everyone should look at Google Earth of the area in The Keys.
Content Key is one of the barrier keys on the Gulf side. Google
Earth's satellite photography of this area has fantastic pictures of
the sea bed in all this shallow water. You can even see obstructions
in the "channels" all up and down The Keys.

My condolences to anyone who has a 6' draft keel sticking down into
this freak of nature. Best ways to see The Keys is by CAR!

Larry

[quote=Geoff Schultz]I lay awake last night thinking about Skip and Lydia and worrying that
people would mis-construe my comments. This event has really bothered
me and I just keep thinking about it. Believe me, I'm not trying to
second guess Skip's decisions or bash anyone. I've just been trying to
understand.

The first thing that confused me was where they were. I've only been up
and down that section of coast 2 times and I've never considered
approaching Marathon from the Gulf side. Maybe I would do it now with
30,000+ miles under my keel, but conditions would have to be perfect.
Not on my first real trip in the dark with 8' seas and 20+ kts of wind.

I just can't imagine the terror of going aground in those conditions.
I've gone aground in rather benign circumstances and know how much my
heart was pounding. With 8' seas, there must have been a huge surf line
and to be caught in that must have been incredibly scary.

I also can't imagine what it would be like to be hoisted off my
boat...my home...that I have lovingly worked on for years...while
watching the sea pound away at it. Every time that I've seen video of
this before, it's always been of people that I didn't know. This is
different. This is someone that I've corresponded with for years as he
worked on the boat.

I've been watching Skip's efforts for years and was cheering him on as
he got ready to leave. I was stunned when this happened. Maybe it's the
feeling that "there but for the grace of God go I." Anyone who has
spent enough time on the water can reflect upon poor choices that
they've made. Many times you get away with them relatively unscathed.
Rarely is it a single item that caused the event. Generally it's a
cascade effect. I mean, what would have happened if their water pump
hadn't broken and they left when they had planned? Maybe the same
thing...maybe not. Who knows?

Anyhow, my heart and sympathies go out to Skip and Lydia. Please let us
know what we can do to help.

-- Geoff


Geoff Schultz wrote in
6:
[color=blue][i]
I've been looking at the charts too. The only route that makes sense
for me is to have headed down the Rocky Channel which is just N of
Content Cay. The charts show that it carries 15' until you get N of
Little Spanish Cay at which point you've got 7+ feet. Unfortunately
this is virtually unmarked and who knows what the hurricanes have done
to it. This is an area that I would never pass unless I had great
light. It appears that it was around 5 PM when they went aground and
there wouldn't have been much light at that point.

I must admit that I also don't understand why they left when they did.
The NWS forecast was for 20-25 kts and 6-8' seas. I know that they
wanted to get going, but I always say:

"You can't pick the weather that you sail in, but you can pick the
weather that you leave in."

All in all this is a very sad day for them and my sympathies go out to
Skip & Lydia. I just wish them the best.

-- Geoff

I too have been following their adventure over the years as well and wish them all the best.

Based on their description of the salvage craft I think I know who they are using and if true, they are in good hands.

Sadly they may be in for another rude shock, because as well as a salvage bill they most assuredly will get assessed by the state and depending on the location of the grounding, the federal government as well, for any damages to the bottom of the area they went aground on. And if it involves live coral, look out!
Either way these fines can easily be in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Hopefully their insurance will cover it. Many policies do.

As others have pointed out, there are lessons to be learned here. Or in fact relearned for many.

Leaving with that kind of weather coming in the Gulf, especially when you have no schedule, is not wise to say the least.

Look at the charts for the Gulf side of the Keys closely and you will see that it is not the place you want to be with a 6 1/5 foot draft during the night or day with out a good bit of local knowledge. We have had a lot of hurricanes over the last few years and things have changed.
Add in the large and rapid swing in depth you get in 8 foot seas and you're asking for trouble.

That said, I hope their boat can be put right and they will soon be underway again.

The bright side is (trying to be positive here) that it looks like they got their big boating disaster over with early. And hopefully they will have smooth sailing from now on.

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

The first thing that confused me was where they were. I've only been
up
and down that section of coast 2 times and I've never considered
approaching Marathon from the Gulf side. Maybe I would do it now with
30,000+ miles under my keel, but conditions would have to be perfect.
Not on my first real trip in the dark with 8' seas and 20+ kts of wind.



After talking live with Lydia long after the event and having been dead
exhausted and confused myself, luckily in deep water, I can understand
what happened. They lost focus mixed with a little panic attack. It's
that simple. I'm near Skip's age and in good condition compared to
others I know. My limits in big water are about 12-14 hours before I've
had it. I wouldn't sail out there with just a woman my age for relief.
I know, I know, lots do it and get away with it. Old and bold? I also
think approaching Marathon from that side was the way wrong decision and
would have said so to them had I known about it, even in the best
conditions...it's TOO CLOSE TO THE BOTTOM!

Anyone looking at a "chart", made years ago even if you just bought it,
needs a reality check. Today, that's gotten real easy, Google Earth,
whos pictures are only a few months old of the USA and updated regularly.
In the Keys, you can SEE the bottom and the reefs and the flow of the
currents from the trails in the bottom. Put in Marathon, FL and take a
look at it. What a TERRIBLE place to go sailing! This area would be
awful in a flats boat! Running aground with a 6' keel is inevitable, not
just a chance. Google Earth is free from http://earth.google.com/ Look
at the bottom where YOU sail.

Larry
--
Democracy is when two wolves and a sheep vote on who's for dinner.
Liberty is when the sheep has his own gun.