Matt O'Toole wrote:

relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable
software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable
system for our silly little boats.

Sure, but the navigation display in an F16 probably costs as much as a half
dozen of our silly little boats.

--
Roger Long

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:57:34 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

Being in the business of drawing stuff, it makes sense to me.

Raster charts are machine images of the "gold standard" the NOAA paper
charts. Conversion to vector is a massive process that requires tracing
every feature. It's too large a job for incorporating human judgement on
every detail but requires too much human judgement and pattern recognition
for a machine to be entrusted with the whole task. The result is an
overwhelming number of places for errors to creep in.

I've tried several methods of converting raster scans of my old hand drawn
plans into vector CAD. It takes almost as long to clean them up as to have
just traced them from scratch. Until NOAA starts drawing the charts in
vector form from the get go, I don't see any way that vector charts are
going to be as reliable in any probable economic scenario.

I don't know if they've started yet, but the new "gold standard" will
be the raw database of soundings, GPS points, etc., from which the new
vector charts will be drawn. The beauty of this is that charts can more
readily be updated by simply updating the database, or just parts of it
(for the stuff that actually changes). Also, more layers of information
can be included, and displayed (or not) as desired. Finally, if you want
a raster chart or a paper copy, it's easy enough to print one from the
master vector format, though not the other way around (as you've
discovered.)

There was a pretty good basic article about all this in Sail magazine a
couple of years ago, but unfortunately, the marine "press" has not kept up
with the reporting. Government websites are always byzantine and running
way behind too. The information may be there, but unless you know about
it ahead of time and know where to look, you'll never find it. The
government is not very good with information about their information, so
to speak.

Matt O.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:30:17 -0500, krj wrote:

These have been available for over a year. Only problem is they are only
the US, Puerto Rico, and USVI.

Does anyone know what's happening with Canadian charts?

Matt O.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news
here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't
heard:

MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now
made its raster charts available for free online.

This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from
NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the
maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on
suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you
some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas,
or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The
gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary.

Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are
repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can
get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational
product from the same vendor.

For more information and downloads:
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm

Awesome! I'm glad those Maptech *******s have lost their monopoly!

The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line
down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are
for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also
more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector
charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart
reminds me of a video game.

Eventually the makers of plotter software will figure out better ways to
display these charts.

Matt O.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news
here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't
heard:

MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now
made its raster charts available for free online.

Apparently Maptech still owns the BSB file format. I'm not sure how this
affects things in a practical sense, such as the gov't still having to pay
license fees, or other software developers being able to compete freely.

This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free
from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but
the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're
intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it
may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few
specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy
way to do it.

Easy, my ass! This website is a disaster. Offhand I can think of several
ways they could have done this much easier, making charts a lot easier and
faster to find and download, with a lot less load on their servers. NOAA
needs better web developers.

I do appreciate their making this available though!

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole wrote:
But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then
surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little
boats.

There's a reason F-16's are called "Lawn Darts"...all that reliable
software in the reboot process.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:30:09 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

Matt O'Toole wrote:

relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable
software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable
system for our silly little boats.

Sure, but the navigation display in an F16 probably costs as much as a half
dozen of our silly little boats.

This is true, but we have volume and access to commodity hardware on our
side. Now that the monopoly is gone, people are free compete to build
better software. Monopoly = mediocrity.

Matt O.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:24:52 -0500, Matt O'Toole
wrote:

If I were cruising long distance, I'd be relying on electronic charts
rather than buying paper ones all the time. Some may worry about
relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to
stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our
silly little boats.

Matt O.

Oh man, what a bad example. You wouldn't believe how many guys they
have working on that stuff, yet things like this happen (copied from
another group)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A friend of mine who works for General Dynamics here in Ft. Worth
wrote some
of the code for the F-16, and he is always telling me about some
neato-whiz-bang bug/feature they keep finding in the F-16:

o Since the F-16 is a fly-by-wire aircraft, the computer keeps the
pilot from
doing dumb things to himself. So if the pilot jerks hard over on the
joystick, the computer will instruct the flight surfaces to make a
nice and
easy 4 or 5 G flip. But the plane can withstand a much higher flip
than that.
So when they were 'flying' the F-16 in simulation over the equator,
the
computer got confused and instantly flipped the plane over, killing
the
pilot [in simulation]. And since it can fly forever upside down, it
would
do so until it ran out of fuel.

(The remaining bugs were actually found while flying, rather than in
simulation):

o One of the first things the Air Force test pilots tried on an early
F-16
was to tell the computer to raise the landing gear while standing
still on
the runway. Guess what happened? Scratch one F-16. (my friend says
there
is a new subroutine in the code called 'wait_on_wheels' now...)
[weight?]

o The computer system onboard has a weapons management system that
will
attempt to keep the plane flying level by dispersing weapons and
empty
fuel tanks in a balanced fashion. So if you ask to drop a bomb, the
computer will figure out whether to drop a port or starboard bomb in
order
to keep the load even. One of the early problems with that was the
fact
that you could flip the plane over and the computer would gladly let
you
drop a bomb or fuel tank. It would drop, dent the wing, and then
roll off.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My boss at one of the software companies I worked at always said that
software is like sausage. If you think you like it, you should never
see it being made. Old joke but accurate.

Don't want to rehash old arguments, but even if you trust your
software and the hardware totally, there's the matter of power.

Regarding cruising without charts, I've never seen a chartplotter that
gives me the same situational awareness boost that I get from looking
at the proper chart. When I'm in home waters, the only time I get out
a chart is for guests to look at. I know the area and the
chartplotter is sufficient. When I'm coming into a new inlet, I want
every source of information I can get. But in a pinch I'd rather do
without the gps than the chart unless visibilty is an issue.



__________________________________________________ __________
Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com
To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious.

Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and
logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:19:35 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:58:45 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If I were cruising long distance, I'd be relying on electronic charts
rather than buying paper ones all the time. Some may worry about
relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to
stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our
silly little boats.

Matt O.

And those F16s aren't 'at sea' alone for days / weeks / months at a time.
And their software / hardware probably gets a bit more testing than the
consumer stuff you and I buy. And they have a support network of radars /
communications equipment / backups etc that costs more than most of our home
towns. And they have access to a bottomless pit of money for maintenance
personnel and parts. Other than that ... I guess you may have a point.

For me ...belts AND suspenders. I maintained two computers - the main
desktop under the nav table, and a notebook. The notbook is the only one to
connect to the internet other than for updates. Software and charts
installed on both. Two GPS systems. Failry current paper edition charts
that cover all East Coast inlets and chatkits for areas being traveled. I
love my electronc charting but I would not depend on it to be 100%
operational 100% of the time. While my system has never crashed or hung
while underway (5 years), being safe is too easy.