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Ron Thornton August 11th 03 11:20 PM

How many boats does it take
 
This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.

Ron


Keith August 12th 03 12:08 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Yep, and they keep making no discharge zones where on-board treatment
systems like the Lectrasan can't be used, even though they treat waste
better than the municipal plants. We keep trying to get the Saxton bill
through, but hasn't made it yet.

--


Keith
__
Yachting is actually living in extravagant squalor.
"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.

Ron




Larry August 12th 03 01:40 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Boats don't produce "sewage", a mixture of dangerous chemicals, heavy
metals, amazingly toxic biology bred by long trips in hot pipes
underground.

Boats produce the same thing as whales, bottlenosed dolphins, and a
billion other species that dump into the sea soup mix of recyclable
materials........unless you put it in a holding tank and TURN it into
sewage with chemical crap out of a bottle and store it for a month.
THEN, it's sewage!

Human waste is just as much food, on a much smaller scale, as whale
waste if you flush it directly overboard.

Of course, we're brainwashed from birth to think that anything
associated with "down there" is filthy, nasty, dirty and, most of all,
ungodly unless it produces a new revenue source for religion to be
exploited.

Human urine is one of the most germ free substances on earth!



On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:20:20 -0400 (EDT), (Ron
Thornton) wrote:

This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.

Ron


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Jere Lull August 12th 03 03:52 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Ron Thornton wrote:

This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.

Ron



vbg about 25,000 with our admittedly oversized holding tank. It's
probably closer to 100,000 boats pumping straight out for that day and
much of THAT would be considered okay if directly "discharged" without
benefit of the MSD, so figure about a quarter of a million boats......

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


ouch August 12th 03 04:37 AM

How many boats does it take
 
I don't disagree with your attitude- but your "facts" are suspect -
next to your colon, your bladder lining is the biggest shedder of dead
cells - ie. **** in a bowl, cover with saran wrap for 2-3 weeks and
drink that - how about even smell that.



On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:40:55 GMT, (Larry) wrote:

Human urine is one of the most germ free substances on earth!





Larry August 12th 03 05:24 AM

How many boats does it take
 
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:37:52 -0700, ouch wrote:

I don't disagree with your attitude- but your "facts" are suspect -
next to your colon, your bladder lining is the biggest shedder of dead
cells - ie. **** in a bowl, cover with saran wrap for 2-3 weeks and
drink that - how about even smell that.

Point is....we're the only species on the planet that makes it a crime
to **** in the water. Billions of marine life thinks nothing of it
and hasn't for billions of years. According to your theory, the ocean
should be brown by now, not that azure blue and so clear you can see
the bottom in 100' of water.

What do you think the crabs and shrimp eat, crab and shrimp
food?...(c;

Human waste, like every other animal waste on the planet is made for
nature to RECYCLE!....not turned into chemical sewage with a 20,000
year half-life.

The Japanese haul it out of their outhouses and fertilize their food
with it! Notice how many Japanese there are? It works!


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Peggie Hall August 12th 03 05:43 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Berms would do more to pollute the water than to prevent
pollution...because, unlike oil which has to be contained and retrieved,
dilution--which would be prevented if the tidal and current flow were
blocked by berms--is essential in both waste treatment AND spill recovery.

Yours is just one more example of the kind of knee-jerk emotional
reaction without any knowledge to back it up that the environmental
extremists count on to support their own self-serving agendae.

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html



Ron Thornton wrote:
This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.

Ron



Steve August 12th 03 10:38 AM

How many boats does it take
 
ouch wrote in message . ..
I don't disagree with your attitude- but your "facts" are suspect -
next to your colon, your bladder lining is the biggest shedder of dead
cells - ie. **** in a bowl, cover with saran wrap for 2-3 weeks and
drink that - how about even smell that.



Your urine should be sterile on exit, if its not you are ill. Of
course it smells after a while, that's because lots of bugs eat it.
Any nutritious substance smells after a while.

What has dead cells got to do with anything; the sea is full of cells
many of them structured into wondeful organisms !

Wwj2110 August 12th 03 01:15 PM

How many boats does it take
 
the problem is not "if" we **** in the water but "where we **** in the water".
Out in the deep water mother nature can handle an occasional dump. Where we get
into trouble is when we discharge into slow moving creeks or close to beaches
that dont see alot of current. The thing that bothers me is that where I live,
all of the municipal sewage treatment plants are built on small creeks. Its
rare to see a creek anymore that does'nt look grey. I dont think that people
realize that creeks dont naturally look grey.

Fred Miller August 12th 03 04:05 PM

How many boats does it take
 

"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River just outside the Chesapeake Bay.
The cause was 3 inches of rain fall. They must have never heard of
berms like all the private petroleum companies have to have around their
tanks. Of coarse the city is exempt from any sanctions. I wonder how
many boats does it take to produce 2 million gallons of sewage.
Somethings wrong with this picture.


year the

The whole thing pales by comparison to what has happened on the Great Lakes.
Last year the cities of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha dumped in excess of
TWO BILLION GALLONS of untreated sewerage into Lake Michigan!!!



Jimmy August 12th 03 07:31 PM

How many boats does it take
 
Let's take a look at the record he

Peggie Hall : has regularly contributed solid and sound advice to anyone
asking for it...promptly, courteously, and professionally. Her posts are
always informative, and her opinions and statements always supportable
by facts.

Ron Thornton : blathers on with an emotional rant, unsupported by facts,
and when called on it, attempts a feeble and rude "your full of ****"
comment in support of his opinion. Yea...that just reeks of credibility
(NOT).

Good lord...you're even using web tv! Aol to complicated for ya little
fella? Now you be a good lil boy and go fume and stew over this for a
while. I'm sure you'll find a reply that befits your schoolboy mentality
eventually.

Peggie - thanks for the long standing good advice and help you've
provided! We appreciate you. Please ignore the dufus.



Ron Thornton wrote:

Peggie,

Your somewhat insulting response to my post is puzzling. Your view is
not supported by the environmental and health professionals both
governmental and private (hardly extremist) that have looked at this
here. The cities here would much rather have had this spill contained
and managed on land than to have had to close their beaches. You should
stick to hand pumped toilets and holding takes because you have
demonstrated many times over the years here that when you don't, your
are as full of **** as the James river was last weekend.

Ron



Larry August 12th 03 07:44 PM

How many boats does it take
 
On 12 Aug 2003 12:15:26 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

the problem is not "if" we **** in the water but "where we **** in the water".
Out in the deep water mother nature can handle an occasional dump. Where we get
into trouble is when we discharge into slow moving creeks or close to beaches
that dont see alot of current. The thing that bothers me is that where I live,
all of the municipal sewage treatment plants are built on small creeks. Its
rare to see a creek anymore that does'nt look grey. I dont think that people
realize that creeks dont naturally look grey.


I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie. I live on the historic Ashley River in Charleston, SC, just
up from Magnolia Gardens Plantation, a national historic registry old
Southern plantation. Summerville, SC and Charleston's Commissioners
of Public Works has two huge sewage plants dumping their crap into the
river. While noone was looking because Hurricane Hugo gave them an
excuse in 1989, the plants were backflushed into the river creating an
environmental disaster that the river still feels to this day, 14
years later. The river smelled just like the sewer for over a year
before the tide finally flushed it out enough it didn't just stink.
They dump about 14,000,000 gallons of "treated wastewater", whatever
the hell that means, into it DAILY. The Ashley River IS the
sewer......

And we worry about you ****ing in the river from your boat? How
silly.....

This morning, I drove over to work in Mt Pleasant (AKA Hungry Neck,
before there were any bridges). The I-526 expressway passes, to the
company's dismay, the Westvaco Paper Mill and Planet Destruction
Device. Huge vats of dark brown gook agitated by huge motors sit atop
the seawall into the Cooper River. The big round settling pond that
normally is full to capacity is empty, it's sprayers silent. Wonder
where that crap is going, today, as I type? Wonder where the brown
gook goes at 2AM? Westvaco's plant spews huge clouds of steam (steam
evaporates into thin air, so you can see it's steam...as opposed to
air pollution which trails out to the horizon). If you pass the plant
at, say, 2AM while the city sleeps, huge plumes of "steam" that
DOESN'T evaporate trails out of the huge stacks way out as far as you
can see. The air smells like sewage, too.

It's just steam, you know.

A friend of mine works for Bennett Yard where all the railroad cars
are transferred from train to train in Charleston. The local train to
the Westvaco Stink Factory and Planet Destruction Device crosses
4-lane Rivers Avenue on its way from the yard to the plant. I got
stopped by the train on the roadway waiting for it to pass. 4 huge
tank cars full of some organic acid used in paper production I
couldn't pronounce passed by my windshield making me wonder how many
of us would die if it derailed in North Charleston, a city of a few
hundred thousand. I asked my friend, "Where do these tank cars go
when they are returned full of waste acid from the paper mill?" To my
astonishment, he answered, "Back to the factory that makes it. The
cars are EMPTY!" I asked him how often the plant gets 4 huge tank
cars full of organic acid I cannot pronounce. "Every couple of
days..." was his reply. Now, according to my estimation and knowledge
that the paper mill has been running since I came to Charleston in
1966, all those buildings down there MUST be just full of waste
organic acids I cannot pronounce! But, wait.....They're NOT! Where
does all this acid go? The warning labels on the car look like
Weapons of Mass Destruction! You don't suppose they dump it.....oh,
no....I can't even think about it......IN THE RIVER?!!....or
maybe....no, it couldn't be....UP THE STACKS?!!! It MUST go somewhere
because the cars are EMPTY headed back for more! It's not piling up
on the property, obviously. These are BIG railroad tank
cars....thousands of gallons per DAY!

I know...it's all absorbed in the Kraft Paper and is in all the paper
bags at the grocery store. Hmm....that bag didn't burn a hole in my
hand or eat my shirt when I was carrying the groceries out to the car.
That couldn't be it.

It's gotta either go up the stack to destroy the air or into the river
because those are the only other places liquids go out of
there.....Duhhh...

And they worry about you and me ****ing in the rivers from a boat?


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Larry August 12th 03 07:45 PM

How many boats does it take
 
On 12 Aug 2003 02:38:37 -0700, (Steve)
wrote:

ouch wrote in message . ..
I don't disagree with your attitude- but your "facts" are suspect -
next to your colon, your bladder lining is the biggest shedder of dead
cells - ie. **** in a bowl, cover with saran wrap for 2-3 weeks and
drink that - how about even smell that.



Your urine should be sterile on exit, if its not you are ill. Of
course it smells after a while, that's because lots of bugs eat it.
Any nutritious substance smells after a while.

What has dead cells got to do with anything; the sea is full of cells
many of them structured into wondeful organisms !


Precisely....very well put. Dead cells don't stink until the bacteria
eat them! If we don't STORE them until they grow into sewage, they're
fine!


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


DSK August 12th 03 07:51 PM

How many boats does it take
 


Larry wrote:

....we're the only species on the planet that makes it a crime
to **** in the water.


Wonderful logic, Larry. Do you have any stock market advice, too?

DSK



Wwj2110 August 12th 03 08:51 PM

How many boats does it take
 
I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie.


well done larry!

creek & rivers up here in western NY are of not much concern to most
people.Thats because they have never seen a clean one.
Ive seen small creeks that cant even support a spec of life .Ive followed the
creek where i keep my sailboat, to its origin. It begins at a shut down
chemical plant where I observed a light brown dust covering the bottom & no
plant life within 3' of the creekbank. As it continues, straight pipes from
individual septic tanks , & 2 sewage treatment plants liven it up a bit. The
way the PPM requirment is satisfied is by adding canal water to dilute the
concoction. Farther downstream we have a few food processing plants. All of
this input enters lake ontario & if theres not enough rain to wash it out, a
huge 18" thick cake of steaming **** called "cladifora" floats at the entrance
& sometimes blocks me in or out of the creek. the DEC & EPA are no help. they
just blow smoke up my ass

Mark Weaver August 12th 03 10:21 PM

How many boats does it take
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:10:28 -0400, "Mark Weaver"
wrote:


No, that's wrong. Dumping human (and animal) waste into the waters has
effects that fish and whale poop don't because human and domestic animal
waste contain bacteria which are dangerous to human health. This is why
beaches are closed when levels of E Coli and fecal coliform bacteria are

too
high (which happens when sewage systems overflow).

I disagree. Human waste is no different than waste from a whale WHEN
IT COMES OUT OF A HUMAN. You don' t **** E Coli or fecal coliform
bacteria or YOU'D BE DEAD ALREADY!


You don't get to 'disagree' on this one -- you're wrong. E coli live in the
healthy digestive tract of cattle and in the digestive tract of people who
happen to be infected at any given time (most E coli infections don't cause
death -- just diarrhea). There is no requirement for waste to sit in sewers
for E coli to end up in feces -- it's there already. Here's an overview of
the issue:

http://www.epa.gov/emfjulte/tpmcmaia/html/fecal.html

Mark



Vito August 12th 03 11:09 PM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 
Fred Miller wrote:

"Ron Thornton" wrote
This weekend the City of Hampton VA allowed 2 million gallons of raw
sewage to wash into the James River ...


The whole thing pales by comparison to what has happened on the Great Lakes.
Last year the cities of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha dumped in excess of
TWO BILLION GALLONS of untreated sewerage into Lake Michigan!!!


Hey, as long as people have more and more kids and encourage immigration
we're going to have more and more sewage. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing
about symptoms like not enough air, etc, etc, when the real problem is
too many people. Jeeze, one idiot over on rec.rv was whining about
development and keeping the wilderness for his kids to enjoy - all seven
of them!
Excuse the rant ...
Howard

MLapla4120 August 12th 03 11:38 PM

How many boats does it take
 
the problem is not "if" we **** in the water but "where we **** in the
water".


My boat is in San Francisco Bay and there
is good water movement due to good tidal
movement. In spite of that, in my marina,
in the shallow end near to shore, there is
often a film of 'unnatural' looking origin. I suspect it is from waste being
discharged.
There is of course no way for me to confirm this. I wonder if some people in
the marina are discharging waste.
As a nurse, I can tell you that urine is
definitely 'sterile', (without bacteria) unless
you have a urinary tract infection or have
some other disease. However, 'sterile',
in this case is not synonymous with 'clean'. Urine is waste. That's why our
bodies get rid of it. Given enough of it in
a small area of water, it does effect the water quality. Where that line is, I
don't
know. I suspect that the closer to shore
you are, the less it takes to actually detract from the quality of shore
beauty.

My two cents
Mark

MLapla4120 August 12th 03 11:57 PM

How many boats does it take
 
The whole thing pales by comparison to what has happened on the Great Lakes.
Last year the cities of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha dumped in excess of
TWO BILLION GALLONS of untreated sewerage into Lake Michigan!!!


In this country, we are worried and on the lookout for terrorists who threaten
to disrupt our economy, quality of life, and
ways of life. Has anyone considered that
this has been happening for years by polluters who destroy fisheries,
recreational areas and drinking water supplies? The bodies of water are the
golden goose and they destroy with impunity. Who suffers? All of us, in some
way or another, do. Higher prices for protein source food, health problems
(cancer), due to ingesting carcinogens, lack of recreational diversions, loss
of jobs in canneries, fishing, restaurant, fish marketing, and related
industries are just
a few of many.
It's astounding that this is even allowed to happen in this age of supposed
ecological sensitivity.

Mark

RaBi August 13th 03 12:11 AM

How many boats does it take
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 12 Aug 2003 12:15:26 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:
excuse in 1989, the plants were backflushed into the river creating an
environmental disaster that the river still feels to this day, 14
years later. The river smelled just like the sewer for over a year
before the tide finally flushed it out enough it didn't just stink.
They dump about 14,000,000 gallons of "treated wastewater", whatever
the hell that means, into it DAILY. The Ashley River IS the
sewer......


Probably the US in general is not really up to date when it comes to
protecting environment? I'm just thinking about the rotten cars that you
find in many backyards, plastic & foam stuff wrapped around the burgers,
countless plastic bags, cars with low fuel efficiency, no wind/solar energy
concept, the refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol, ...

just my $.02

#rb



RaBi August 13th 03 12:16 AM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
Hey, as long as people have more and more kids and encourage immigration
we're going to have more and more sewage. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing
about symptoms like not enough air, etc, etc, when the real problem is
too many people. Jeeze, one idiot over on rec.rv was whining about
development and keeping the wilderness for his kids to enjoy - all seven
of them!
Excuse the rant ...
Howard


You should have a look at the facts. The birthrate is just OK and US growth
rate is just 0.9%




Mark Weaver August 13th 03 12:42 AM

How many boats does it take
 

"MLapla4120" wrote in message
...
The whole thing pales by comparison to what has happened on the Great

Lakes.
Last year the cities of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha dumped in excess of
TWO BILLION GALLONS of untreated sewerage into Lake Michigan!!!


In this country, we are worried and on the lookout for terrorists who

threaten
to disrupt our economy, quality of life, and ways of life. Has anyone

considered
that this has been happening for years by polluters who destroy fisheries,
recreational areas and drinking water supplies? The bodies of water are

the
golden goose and they destroy with impunity.


The 'polluters' we're talking about here are not evil, greedy multinational
corporations -- they are cities and towns who lack the funds to upgrade
antiquated sewer systems immediately. Even so, these discharges are much
less common than they used to be and the Great Lakes are much cleaner (30
years ago, Lake Erie was considered 'dead' -- now it is clear and full of
fish). After all, it used to be that raw sewage was dumped into the lakes
routinely.

Mark



Mark Weaver August 13th 03 12:48 AM

How many boats does it take
 

"RaBi" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 12 Aug 2003 12:15:26 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:
excuse in 1989, the plants were backflushed into the river creating an
environmental disaster that the river still feels to this day, 14
years later. The river smelled just like the sewer for over a year
before the tide finally flushed it out enough it didn't just stink.
They dump about 14,000,000 gallons of "treated wastewater", whatever
the hell that means, into it DAILY. The Ashley River IS the
sewer......


Probably the US in general is not really up to date when it comes to
protecting environment? I'm just thinking about the rotten cars that you
find in many backyards, plastic & foam stuff wrapped around the burgers,
countless plastic bags, cars with low fuel efficiency, no wind/solar

energy
concept, the refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol, ...


I think you check, you'll find that the US is ahead of the most of the world
in environmental protection (with the notable exception of Kyoto). We don't
have all the dirty, particulate-spewing diesel-powered passenger cars. Our
cars are not fuel efficient on average but they're clean -- in the rest of
the world they may be more efficient but they're dirtier. For example,
catalytic converters were introduced in the US in 1974 but weren't required
by law in Europe until 1993:

http://www.uyseg.org/catalysis/catalytic/cat1.htm

And, in fact, the US environment is far cleaner than it used to be. Waters
are much cleaner than a generation ago, air also. Huge amounts of forest
have regrown in the last century. Sewage discharges remain a problem in
some areas, but they're not nearly the problem they once were.
Double-crested Cormorants, once a threatened species in the era of DDT are
now becoming a nuisance in the Great Lakes and Bald Eagles are now a fairly
common sight. Even the range of large predators are expanding (wolves,
bears, mtn lions).

Mark



Larry August 13th 03 04:07 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Aha! THAT's the reason for the millions of "Moon Eyes" washed up on
the beach at Fair Haven Beach State Park where I grew up in my
father's umbrella tent in the camping area each summer! Man MOON EYES
STINK!



On 12 Aug 2003 19:51:46 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie.


well done larry!

creek & rivers up here in western NY are of not much concern to most
people.Thats because they have never seen a clean one.
Ive seen small creeks that cant even support a spec of life .Ive followed the
creek where i keep my sailboat, to its origin. It begins at a shut down
chemical plant where I observed a light brown dust covering the bottom & no
plant life within 3' of the creekbank. As it continues, straight pipes from
individual septic tanks , & 2 sewage treatment plants liven it up a bit. The
way the PPM requirment is satisfied is by adding canal water to dilute the
concoction. Farther downstream we have a few food processing plants. All of
this input enters lake ontario & if theres not enough rain to wash it out, a
huge 18" thick cake of steaming **** called "cladifora" floats at the entrance
& sometimes blocks me in or out of the creek. the DEC & EPA are no help. they
just blow smoke up my ass


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Jere Lull August 13th 03 05:07 AM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 
RaBi wrote:

"Vito" wrote in message
...


Hey, as long as people have more and more kids and encourage immigration
we're going to have more and more sewage. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing
about symptoms like not enough air, etc, etc, when the real problem is
too many people. Jeeze, one idiot over on rec.rv was whining about
development and keeping the wilderness for his kids to enjoy - all seven
of them!
Excuse the rant ...
Howard



You should have a look at the facts. The birthrate is just OK and US growth
rate is just 0.9%


For at least the last couple of decades, the US birthrate have been
lower than the death rate. All growth has been immigration, legal and
illegal. That's pretty common in countries with higher standards of living.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


Jere Lull August 13th 03 05:13 AM

How many boats does it take
 
Mark Weaver wrote:

"Larry" wrote in message
.. .


Boats don't produce "sewage", a mixture of dangerous chemicals, heavy
metals, amazingly toxic biology bred by long trips in hot pipes
underground.

Boats produce the same thing as whales, bottlenosed dolphins, and a
billion other species that dump into the sea soup mix of recyclable
materials........unless you put it in a holding tank and TURN it into
sewage with chemical crap out of a bottle and store it for a month.
THEN, it's sewage!

Human waste is just as much food, on a much smaller scale, as whale
waste if you flush it directly overboard.




No, that's wrong. Dumping human (and animal) waste into the waters has
effects that fish and whale poop don't because human and domestic animal
waste contain bacteria which are dangerous to human health. This is why
beaches are closed when levels of E Coli and fecal coliform bacteria are too
high (which happens when sewage systems overflow).


E Coli and similar are natural, even though dangerous when too
concentrated. On the Chesapeake's Eastern shore, they were really
confused about high E.Coli counts in areas where there were no
significant human sources. The culprits wound up being the raccoons who
flourish in the face of virtually no predators.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


Keith August 13th 03 12:34 PM

How many boats does it take
 
What the heck is a "moon eye"?

--


Keith
__
Backup not found. [A]bort, [R]etry, [P]anic...
"Larry" wrote in message
...
Aha! THAT's the reason for the millions of "Moon Eyes" washed up on
the beach at Fair Haven Beach State Park where I grew up in my
father's umbrella tent in the camping area each summer! Man MOON EYES
STINK!



On 12 Aug 2003 19:51:46 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie.


well done larry!

creek & rivers up here in western NY are of not much concern to most
people.Thats because they have never seen a clean one.
Ive seen small creeks that cant even support a spec of life .Ive

followed the
creek where i keep my sailboat, to its origin. It begins at a shut down
chemical plant where I observed a light brown dust covering the bottom &

no
plant life within 3' of the creekbank. As it continues, straight pipes

from
individual septic tanks , & 2 sewage treatment plants liven it up a bit.

The
way the PPM requirment is satisfied is by adding canal water to dilute

the
concoction. Farther downstream we have a few food processing plants. All

of
this input enters lake ontario & if theres not enough rain to wash it

out, a
huge 18" thick cake of steaming **** called "cladifora" floats at the

entrance
& sometimes blocks me in or out of the creek. the DEC & EPA are no help.

they
just blow smoke up my ass


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.




RaBi August 13th 03 12:40 PM

How many boats does it take
 

"Mark Weaver" wrote in message
...
I think you check, you'll find that the US is ahead of the most of the

world
in environmental protection (with the notable exception of Kyoto).

ACK - compared to most of the world including third world countries but not
compared to industrial countries in Europe

We don't
have all the dirty, particulate-spewing diesel-powered passenger cars.

Diesel particles are no major environmental issue, filters / catalytic
converters are on the way and modern engines aren't that dirty. And from an
efficiency point of view diesel engines are much better. Just go and check
fuel efficiency of current Mercedes CDI or Volkswagen/Audi TDI engines and
you get the picture. 40-50 miles per gallon are no marketing hype - they are
real and achieveable under normal circumstances.
Fuel is still very, very cheap in the US so nobody cares about efficiency.


Our
cars are not fuel efficient on average but they're clean -- in the rest of
the world they may be more efficient but they're dirtier.

? I have traveled most countries of Europe and have been several times to
the US and my perceived impression quite different. (Except if you compare
the US to 3rd world countries).
I agree that most cars in the US are modern clean but inefficient cars but
there are many old / unmaintained cars on the road which pollute the air.
You won't find that number here in Europe (cars have to go to emisison check
every 2 years in Germany and similar regulations exist throughout Europe).

For example,
catalytic converters were introduced in the US in 1974 but weren't

required
by law in Europe until 1993:

http://www.uyseg.org/catalysis/catalytic/cat1.htm


Introduced does not mean required. You are comparing apples & oranges here.
What was the real deployment rate of converters? And are people forced to
maintain them? Are public / army vehicles required to have converters? I
remember that most waste management and army cars blow huge black clouds!

And, in fact, the US environment is far cleaner than it used to be.

Still not as good as it could be. One major problem I see is the throw-away
lifestyle.

IMHO the US has an advanced economy but is far behind in environmental
protection. US should start with signing Kyoto. And probably stop using
plastic/foam for throw-away stuff like coffee cups & burger wrappers (paper
works, too).



Ron Thornton August 13th 03 01:15 PM

How many boats does it take
 
My point in the original post was that the government allows large
sewage discharges into our waterways with apparently little or no long
term impact in many areas. The posts here and in previous threads
verify that it is not just an isolated example. Most boats stay on
trailers or at the peer most of the time. I do not believe there are
that many pleasure boats cruising around the east coast, yet they seem
to have zeroed in on pleasure craft as a major contributor. Writing to
my congress men didn't seem to have any impact. How did this happen to
us and how can we get out of it?

Ron

To lazy to get out of my Lazy boy where the Webtv is hooked to a large
screen to do this from my dual processor server or P IV, 2 gig
workstation that are 15 feet away.


DSK August 13th 03 02:26 PM

How many boats does it take
 
Mark Weaver wrote:


You don't get to 'disagree' on this one -- you're wrong.


Mark, FWIW you're talking to a dial tone here. "Larry" used to talk like he had
some sense, but nowadays he has joined the ranks of brainless right-wing whackos
who cannot accept a plain fact... if it doesn't bolster their prejudices, it's
wrong no matter if they just saw it for themselves with their own eyes...

Thanks for the link, but don't waste your time trying to argue with "Larry."

DSK



Wwj2110 August 13th 03 03:03 PM

How many boats does it take
 
My point in the original post was that the government allows large
sewage discharges into our waterways with apparently little or no long
term impact in many areas. The posts here and in previous threads
verify that it is not just an isolated example. Most boats stay on
trailers or at the peer most of the time. I do not believe there are
that many pleasure boats cruising around the east coast, yet they seem
to have zeroed in on pleasure craft as a major contributor. Writing to
my congress men didn't seem to have any impact. How did this happen to
us and how can we get out of it?


Ron



heres the irony: we are supposed to dump our holding tanks into marina
holding tanks ,which in turn dump their holding tanks into the municipal sewage
treatment facility, which in turn dumps it back in the creek

Ron Thornton August 13th 03 04:22 PM

How many boaters does it take to change this
 
Vito,

I think that we hear sewage is the problem so we believe it. I don't
disagree that specific areas like the Florida Keys have a problem but I
don't believe the general no discharge rule for boats is based in
science.

I dive with several of the Virginia environmental agents. These guys
are well educated and very experienced. They say that the big problem
is the polluted runoff from our roadways and parking lots (gas, oil,
transmission and brake fluid, etc.). Second is the nutrient runoff from
thousands of miles of river front farms and the lawns of homes from
fertilizer. All of this goes into our waterways either directly or thru
storm drains. There opinions come from long term real studies not just
hearsay. They don't say it point blank, but they insinuate that sewage
is very manageable by comparison. I would expect that it is probably
the same in the rest of the country.

This leaves me to conclude that the regulators either never get the true
scientific picture or are ignoring it, most probably for political
reasons.

I for one am tired of having to look hard to find pump out stations.
Remember how they told us there was going to be a one at almost every
marina. About the only time I go offshore is to dive, not frequent
enough to keep my holding tank empty. Boaters believed these hollow
promises and allowed this to happen. I don't know of any boating
organization who lobbies long and hard against this which is a shame
because collectively we are a large voting block.

So Back to the question. What can we do about this?


Mark Weaver August 13th 03 05:11 PM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
RaBi wrote:

You should have a look at the facts. The birthrate is just OK and US

growth
rate is just 0.9%


That don't compute. The LA basin was largely empty 50 years ago. All
those seperate towns were really seperate.


A) The LA basin isn't representative of the country as a whole, and

B) Nobody said there was no population growth going on 50 years ago -- 50
years ago the country was in the middle of the post WWII baby boom.

Mark



Mark Weaver August 13th 03 05:15 PM

How many boaters does it take to change this
 

"Ron Thornton" wrote in message news:21565-3F3A57AE-

I dive with several of the Virginia environmental agents. These guys
are well educated and very experienced. They say that the big problem
is the polluted runoff from our roadways and parking lots (gas, oil,
transmission and brake fluid, etc.). Second is the nutrient runoff from
thousands of miles of river front farms and the lawns of homes from
fertilizer. All of this goes into our waterways either directly or thru
storm drains. There opinions come from long term real studies not just
hearsay. They don't say it point blank, but they insinuate that sewage
is very manageable by comparison.


That's true--chemical and fertilizer runoff is a bigger problem. Sewage is
more a problem for human health (in using beaches and eating shellfish) than
a problem that damages the environment (except that combined sewer overflows
also contain a lot lawn and parking lot runoff). But the fact that these
are bigger (and different) problems doesn't mean that we shouldn't do
anything about sewage.

Mark



Vito August 13th 03 06:06 PM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 
Mark Weaver wrote:

Sigh--it has nothing really to do with more people. It has to do with
outdated sewer systems ....


There is a need to upgrade sewer systems but that is treating just one
symptom of the primary problem which is "too many people". We can put a
band aid on acid rain with scrubbers to, etc etc. but none of these
"solutions" address the real source of the trouble. Those old sewers
were adequate just 50 years ago. They leaked raw sewage then too, but
the amounts were small enough for the streams and lakes to recover.
That's no longer true because we have so many people making too much
sewage for both the "antiquated" plants and for the rivers they dump
into.

As a teen we used to dive in a beautiful kelp forest. It's an underwater
desert now, thanks to LA sewage. We used to chase jackrabbite across the
Mojave too. Damage was inconsequental because there were so few of us.
Now it'd be criminal to do the same - not for 2 or 3 bikes but for 20 or
30,000! There's just as much desert but now there's too many people to
permit riding in it. There's just as much air and water too but .... )c:

Larry August 13th 03 06:17 PM

How many boats does it take
 
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:34:35 -0500, "Keith"
wrote:

What the heck is a "moon eye"?

A flat little silver fish with big eyes that die by the billions after
breeding and wash up on Lake Ontario beaches by the millions, making
"going to the beach" sort of like "going to the dumpster at the boat
ramp after the fishermen have been there". PU!

Not sure what their real name is....


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Larry August 13th 03 06:18 PM

How many boats does it take
 
On 13 Aug 2003 14:03:28 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:



heres the irony: we are supposed to dump our holding tanks into marina
holding tanks ,which in turn dump their holding tanks into the municipal sewage
treatment facility, which in turn dumps it back in the creek


.......after they store it until it's indigestible to marine life and
make sewage out of it.


Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.


Ron Thornton August 13th 03 07:40 PM

How many boaters does it take to change this
 
Mark,

I'm not suggesting we do nothing about sewage, just get the focus off us
and onto the real problems. I believe boaters are regulated on this
issue because we are an easy target and not because we have a big
impact on the environment.

Ron

Still in the Lazyboy.


RaBi August 13th 03 08:48 PM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
Mark Weaver wrote:

A) The LA basin isn't representative of the country as a whole, and


Agreed, but Fredricksburg, Va is now as crowded as Alexandria was just
20 years ago and the farms between Rockville and Fredrick Md have been
buried under houses and apartments, and ....


Maybe that is not caused by growth in terms of people but in terms of
comfort level? I guess many people now live in larger houses and nobody
wants to live in small flats anymore? Malls get bigger and bigger, airports
continue to grow, ...

If you don't want kids who the heck should pay your pension? If a country's
people start aging you will run into problems as only few young people work
and many older people need help / medical care.



Vito August 13th 03 11:31 PM

How many boats does it take - OT solution.
 
Mark Weaver wrote:

A) The LA basin isn't representative of the country as a whole, and


Agreed, but Fredricksburg, Va is now as crowded as Alexandria was just
20 years ago and the farms between Rockville and Fredrick Md have been
buried under houses and apartments, and ....

B) Nobody said there was no population growth going on 50 years ago -- 50
years ago the country was in the middle of the post WWII baby boom.


Thank you. I hear there's another boom starting.


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