Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 03:31:52 GMT, Gary wrote:

I was taught, and always use north up. All of my peers also use north
up. That way the picture doesn't change every time you alter course or
make a small correction.

Are you talking about radar or charting ?

Both.

The vast majority of small boat radars display only in "heading up"
mode.
I don't know about the "vast majority" but my entry level Raymarine
SL70 installed in 1999 has North-Up, so I assume all Ray's sold in
this century have it.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 03:31:52 GMT, Gary wrote:

I was taught, and always use north up. All of my peers also use north
up. That way the picture doesn't change every time you alter course
or make a small correction.

Are you talking about radar or charting ?
Both.

The vast majority of small boat radars display only in "heading up"
mode.
I don't know about the "vast majority" but my entry level Raymarine SL70
installed in 1999 has North-Up, so I assume all Ray's sold in this century
have it.

FWIT: Current RayMarine C and E series can run either North or Course up

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:45:00 -0400, Gerald wrote:

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
news

I haven't tried Fugawi, but I'd like to. I'm convinced vector charts
are the way to go.

And I am convinced that raster charts are the way to go and that,
perhaps, I am not in the mainstream and have made it to the position of
'old-fart'. I am in the process of looking at some current generation
chart plotters to go on a new boat. I haven't paid much attention to
marine electronics in the past 6 or 7 years since I outfitted my last
boat. It has surprised my that every non-pc based chart plotter out
there is vector based --- no one has done one to support raster.

This is because raster charts take too much processing power and memory
for simple, low-power devices like handheld plotters. Vector charts also
render much faster on all devices, for instant loading, zooming and
panning.

I have been using paper charts for nearly 55 years. My last 2 boats had
PC based systems (Maptech and/or Cap'n). I found that having chart
images on my screen that looked exactly like the charts on my nav table
was a BIG plus.

There's nothing wrong with a personal preference. A lot of people
prefer traditional charts.

One thing I like about paper/raster charts is that you know when you've
reached their limit of resolution, because the picture gets grainy.
Vector charts can be too smooth at their limit. They're supposed to have
a warning label to tell you when you've zoomed in too far, but I think the
grainy picture is more intuitive.

BTW, I usually have a paper chart open too, along with my electronic one.

It has been my experience that vector charts have less information on
them than raster charts. While some see this as an advantage I do not:
one mans clutter is another mans important data. Most of the vector
charts that I have looked at do not show light characteristics: you
need to point to it to get a pop up. That makes absolutely no sense to
me. Having to manage my vessel and putz around with a pointing device
trying to find the light with a 6 second flash is somewhere between dumb
and dangerous. Raster charts have all the information right there with
no screwing around. Vector technology salesmen take great pride in
their products' ability to remove layers of information to 'unclutter'
the screen. When they demo this feature, all I see being removed is
information I deem important.

This is all a function of the plotter software, not vector charts
themselves. Vector charts are basically a database, which can hold many
more layers of information than raster charts. Which information gets
shown is decided by the software designer, and then the user. But as
you've found, software designers often make poor choices!

My understanding of the vector chart
manufacturing process is that they all start out with the raster charts.
So they do not have any more accurate or timely information. In fact
the process of going from one format to the other has been known to
introduce errors.

Actually it's the other way around. The new master format is a database,
which can be updated in whole or in part, have layers added, etc. -- like
GIS for the sea. Charts can be rendered from this in vector or raster
formats.

Let me say at this point that I am a retired geek. I have spent most of
my life playing around with the then current technologies. I still
consider my self to be pretty much of a geek. So I am not afraid of
something new. I had great hope for vector charting. but IMHO, that
promise has yet to be fulfilled. The biggest failure of this technology
is in not being able to provide timely updates. With digital, it should
be a simple matter to push out weekly (daily ??) NTM updates via the
internet. This is something I had been able to do with the MapTech Pro
service . Each week I would get NTM updates to 100% of my charts. Now,
you can download them yourself for free. Not with vector charts.

Actually the technology allows much easier updating. Whether they're
doing it or not is another story, but apparently they are. Some info:

http://www.nauticalcharts.com/fugawi-c.htm

So, less information, less accurate information, less usable
information, what am I missing? Am I really getting that far out of
touch?

Not really. I don't think the promise has been realized either, but
that's the fault of the software marketers, not vector charting itself.

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:45:00 -0400, Gerald wrote:

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
news

I haven't tried Fugawi, but I'd like to. I'm convinced vector charts
are the way to go.

And I am convinced that raster charts are the way to go and that,
perhaps, I am not in the mainstream and have made it to the position of
'old-fart'. I am in the process of looking at some current generation
chart plotters to go on a new boat. I haven't paid much attention to
marine electronics in the past 6 or 7 years since I outfitted my last
boat. It has surprised my that every non-pc based chart plotter out
there is vector based --- no one has done one to support raster.

This is because raster charts take too much processing power and memory
for simple, low-power devices like handheld plotters. Vector charts also
render much faster on all devices, for instant loading, zooming and
panning.

True but - I have used both Cap'n and the Maptech Offshore Navigator
programs on mid range Dell Tower machines. I have never had a load, zoom or
pan action that was not totally satisfactory. I buy the argument, but am not
sure I see the value. I accept that all of the marketing hype is true:
faster loading, panning, quilting, better resolution, ability to surpress
layers, etc. My issue with all this is that I have no problems that these
features fix.

I have been using paper charts for nearly 55 years. My last 2 boats had
PC based systems (Maptech and/or Cap'n). I found that having chart
images on my screen that looked exactly like the charts on my nav table
was a BIG plus.

There's nothing wrong with a personal preference. A lot of people
prefer traditional charts.

Along with a mild case of "I have always done it that way..."


One thing I like about paper/raster charts is that you know when you've
reached their limit of resolution, because the picture gets grainy.
Vector charts can be too smooth at their limit. They're supposed to have
a warning label to tell you when you've zoomed in too far, but I think the
grainy picture is more intuitive.

True but -- In my experience, I cannot remember having to zoom in on any
chart so far that the picture became too grainy. At some point in the
zooming process, long before grain becomes an issue, you can see all the
detail there is to see. While the vector chart can theoretically zoom down
to feet with out showing grain, there will be nothing of interest at that
level of zoom that is of interest. This is one of those feature that the
demo guys like to show at boat shows: nice to demo - yes --- something I
have ever needed to do in the real world - no. Most charts are not that
accurate to begin with. Somewhere the line between precision and accuracy
becomes an issue. If the issue is being able to scale down from a very large
scale map down to a buoy on a harbor sacale chart, the major raster chart
programs will do that automatically for you at satisfactory speeds. Again,
I do buy the argument, but I am not sure I see the value on a PC based
system. On a less powerfull dedicated chartplotter, this is clearly an
issue.


BTW, I usually have a paper chart open too, along with my electronic one.

Good man! Me to - always. Belts and suspenders.


It has been my experience that vector charts have less information on
them than raster charts. While some see this as an advantage I do not:
one mans clutter is another mans important data. Most of the vector
charts that I have looked at do not show light characteristics: you
need to point to it to get a pop up. That makes absolutely no sense to
me. Having to manage my vessel and putz around with a pointing device
trying to find the light with a 6 second flash is somewhere between dumb
and dangerous. Raster charts have all the information right there with
no screwing around. Vector technology salesmen take great pride in
their products' ability to remove layers of information to 'unclutter'
the screen. When they demo this feature, all I see being removed is
information I deem important.

This is all a function of the plotter software, not vector charts
themselves. Vector charts are basically a database, which can hold many
more layers of information than raster charts. Which information gets
shown is decided by the software designer, and then the user. But as
you've found, software designers often make poor choices!

My understanding of the vector chart
manufacturing process is that they all start out with the raster charts.
So they do not have any more accurate or timely information. In fact
the process of going from one format to the other has been known to
introduce errors.

Actually it's the other way around. The new master format is a database,
which can be updated in whole or in part, have layers added, etc. -- like
GIS for the sea. Charts can be rendered from this in vector or raster
formats.

Let me say at this point that I am a retired geek. I have spent most of
my life playing around with the then current technologies. I still
consider my self to be pretty much of a geek. So I am not afraid of
something new. I had great hope for vector charting. but IMHO, that
promise has yet to be fulfilled. The biggest failure of this technology
is in not being able to provide timely updates. With digital, it should
be a simple matter to push out weekly (daily ??) NTM updates via the
internet. This is something I had been able to do with the MapTech Pro
service . Each week I would get NTM updates to 100% of my charts. Now,
you can download them yourself for free. Not with vector charts.

Actually the technology allows much easier updating. Whether they're
doing it or not is another story, but apparently they are. Some info:

http://www.nauticalcharts.com/fugawi-c.htm

I didn't see any details on updating. With the Maptech Pro service, I would
get a weekly download for an entire region, run an update program and 100 or
so charts would be brought up to date. I subscribed to 3 regions, so I had
three buttons to push. It doesn't get significantly easier than that.

But, that is not my point. That should have been available for digital
formats all along. It should be available for digital formats now. The ENC
charts the web reference point to are new and, as of now, incomplete. I
doubt that any of the update facilities will be available to anyone using
chartplotters for quite awhile. In time I am confident that this promise
will be met.


So, less information, less accurate information, less usable
information, what am I missing? Am I really getting that far out of
touch?

Not really. I don't think the promise has been realized either, but
that's the fault of the software marketers, not vector charting itself.


Fault is not relevant. The promise hasn't been met --- yet. It will be.

In any event, ready for prime time or not, vector charts are clearly here to
stay. Since my next boat will have a dedicated chartplotter on it, I will
be using vector charts. Hopefully the adaptation process will not be to
long or painful.

I think the real promise of the next generation will be when the
manufacturers (software / firmware) open their systems up to allow the user
to merge third party files. How cool would it be if you could buy a fishing
layer that held good fishing locations? Or a SCUBA overlay for dive sites?
Or if you could purchase very up to date soundings for an inlet or area of
the ICW prone to shifting and shoaling? A third party marina and facilities
database would probably sell well. Restaurants. West Marine would
certainly offer a layer with all their stores located. I could send you my
favorite anchorage locations if you send me yours --- AS a user defined
overlay layer. And so on.....


Matt O.