Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

I was at Dimillos Old Port Marina in Portland, Maine on the 13th, 14th and
15th of July on my way back to Baltimore, Maryland from Castine, Maine. The
FLORIDIAN was docked to the face pier while I was docked there. The boat is
actually 225 feet LOA and is owned by Wayne Huizenga, the owner of the Miami
Dolphins.

I know the Captain and I'm sure that he had someone at the helm during this
incident. I too have been the victim of large powerboats just missing me
when they have miles of open ocean to avoid me. I'm sure there are two
sides to this story.

Ric

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

There's always another side of the story. I'd love to know what it is
in this case. If I'd been a floating container or other obstruction
that could have damaged their vessel, I'm sure they would have
maneuvered effortlessly around. It strains my credulity that they
weren't keeping a good enough watch this close to shore not to have
seen a 32 foot sailboat. I would also be quite surprised if someone
got to be master of a vessel of this class without enough nautical
knowledge to understand that a sailing vessel with sails sheeted flat
is not going to alter course very much in the windward direction
which, in this case, was also the direction of a standard head to head
pass and away from the shore.

Perhaps I am deficient in imagination but this leaves in my mind only
the expectation that the size and impressiveness of the vessel would
intimidate me into altering course out of his path. The size and
paint job didn't but the fact that the vessel was acting like one on
autopilot did. That's not the way the right of way rules are supposed
to work.

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules. That's not the case in all meeting situations.

Since you know that captain, I'd love to hear the other side of the
story.

What I see overall, is an increasing expectation across the spectrum
of vessels that the rules of the road apply between vessels of roughly
the same size and smaller vessels always should give way to larger
ones. I've also detected an attitude in the responses here that the
rules are the basis for the negotiations to take place on the radio
and not a framework for steering your vessel in traffic. Neither of
these seem healthy to me.

I practice somewhat the first idea myself though. When operating as a
six knot powerboat, I don't attempt to alter course for fast outboards
that may be stand on vessels on converging courses. The great
disparity in speed and their nimbleness makes any attempt by me to
change course pointless and apt to confuse the situation more than
help it. If they have slowed down to displacement speed, as in the
harbor, it's different.

Possibly, vessels like the one in question view everything my size the
same way but it's a dangerous attitude when applied to closehauled
sailboats in strong winds as well as many other situations.


--

Roger Long



"Cap'n Ric" wrote in message
news:BpHyg.175$oz.89@trnddc07...
I was at Dimillos Old Port Marina in Portland, Maine on the 13th,
14th and 15th of July on my way back to Baltimore, Maryland from
Castine, Maine. The FLORIDIAN was docked to the face pier while I
was docked there. The boat is actually 225 feet LOA and is owned by
Wayne Huizenga, the owner of the Miami Dolphins.

I know the Captain and I'm sure that he had someone at the helm
during this incident. I too have been the victim of large
powerboats just missing me when they have miles of open ocean to
avoid me. I'm sure there are two sides to this story.

Ric

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air.

Actually that's not quite the case. The rules of the road
specifically mention horn signals to clear up cases of uncertain
intentions. You, like many other small pleasure craft, do not have a
horn powerful enough to be useful at a distance, and many skippers of
large boats are in an enclosed pilot house where horns can be
difficult to hear. For these and other reasons, almost all approach
situations between larger vessels are being negotiated on channel 13
these days.

You might call it yacking, I'd call it prudence. Be safe out there.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Wayne.B" wrote

difficult to hear. For these and other reasons, almost all approach
situations between larger vessels are being negotiated on channel 13
these days.

I've observed, listened to, and participated in many of those
exchanges over the last thirty years. They are almost always back up
and confirmation of actions already being taken on the basis of the
rules situation.

I've never heard a conversation along the lines of, "Big white yacht,
you aren't really going to just continue on that course like I wasn't
even here, are you?" I can't remember a radio exchange where someone
had to ask for the rules to be observed.

If I was in the pilothouse of a powerboat, tweaking the autopilot, and
holding my coffee mug in the other hand, I would make a lot of radio
calls. It looks different when you are alone in a boat in conditions
that make two hands on the wheel nice but one is on the main sheet
ready for instant easing.

--

Roger Long

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:58:06 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I've never heard a conversation along the lines of, "Big white yacht,
you aren't really going to just continue on that course like I wasn't
even here, are you?" I can't remember a radio exchange where someone
had to ask for the rules to be observed.

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation. My sense of the situation
is that you altered course before it became an issue, and quite
possibly that was a prudent decision on your part but we'll never know
for sure.

On the other hand, a nice polite radio conversation when you were
still a mile away could have gone like this:

You: "Large south bound motor yacht from Portland, this is Roger
Long's sailboat requesting a pass on two whistles."

He: "Roger Long's sailboat, this is the Floridania, roger that, two
whistle pass, have a nice day."

You: "Thanks, you have a nice day also."

On balance, it's a good way to lower your blood pressure and leads to
a better experience for all concerned. Try it some time.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need to
focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most up-to-date
official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Roger Long wrote:
There's always another side of the story. I'd love to know what it is
in this case. If I'd been a floating container or other obstruction
that could have damaged their vessel, I'm sure they would have
maneuvered effortlessly around. It strains my credulity that they
weren't keeping a good enough watch this close to shore not to have
seen a 32 foot sailboat.
I'm sure he saw you. Maybe his appreciation of the situation was not
the same as yours?
I would also be quite surprised if someone
got to be master of a vessel of this class without enough nautical
knowledge to understand that a sailing vessel with sails sheeted flat
is not going to alter course very much in the windward direction
which, in this case, was also the direction of a standard head to head
pass and away from the shore.
It is a mistake to assume that a ship's master knows anything about
sailing. I work with many ship's captains and not many understand
sailboats at all. (sorry to say)

Perhaps I am deficient in imagination but this leaves in my mind only
the expectation that the size and impressiveness of the vessel would
intimidate me into altering course out of his path. The size and
paint job didn't but the fact that the vessel was acting like one on
autopilot did. That's not the way the right of way rules are supposed
to work.
I think perhaps you are partially right here. You were intimidated to
alter while he thought that the two vessels would pass clear. It is
quite a different view from a sailboat, hands full than from a modern
bridge with ARPA and gyros providing the info.

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules. That's not the case in all meeting situations.

You should have called him. It is the right thing to do. A simple,
"Good morning Captain, I am XXXX on your XXXX bow under sail. What are
your intentions?" I do it all the time and I have it done to me
regularly as well. Once again, it is the right thing to do.

"Rule 5

Look-out

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and
hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the
situation and of the risk of collision."

Cockcroft, in "A Guide to the Collision Avoidance Rules"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075...lance&n=283155

Page 37 says:

"The term 'proper lookout' has always been interpreted by the courts as
including the effective use of available instruments and equipment, in
addition to the use of both sight and hearing. This applies
particularly to radar, but the use of binoculars and of information
received by VHF from a shore station or from other ships would be
included among 'all available means appropriate'.

Finally, how did you determine that risk of collision existed with this
yacht? What piece of information was key to causing you to maneouvre?
Did you take some bearings or was it just "gut feel"?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:58:06 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


I've never heard a conversation along the lines of, "Big white yacht,
you aren't really going to just continue on that course like I wasn't
even here, are you?" I can't remember a radio exchange where someone
had to ask for the rules to be observed.


Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation. My sense of the situation
is that you altered course before it became an issue, and quite
possibly that was a prudent decision on your part but we'll never know
for sure.

On the other hand, a nice polite radio conversation when you were
still a mile away could have gone like this:

You: "Large south bound motor yacht from Portland, this is Roger
Long's sailboat requesting a pass on two whistles."

He: "Roger Long's sailboat, this is the Floridania, roger that, two
whistle pass, have a nice day."

You: "Thanks, you have a nice day also."

On balance, it's a good way to lower your blood pressure and leads to
a better experience for all concerned. Try it some time.



I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gerald wrote:
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need to
focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most up-to-date
official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm

So, where is the demarcation line for where the "inland rules start and
the Colregs end?

Which rules did apply in this case and does it make a difference?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Good point Gary. The original post talks about "returning back in" and
"hopeing to clear" Ram Island and being in the Portland Main area. I see a
Ram Island just inside the COLREG line on the approach to Portland. It
seems likely that COLREGS probably applied to the situation.


"Gary" wrote in message
news:zpPyg.264958$Mn5.8889@pd7tw3no...
Gerald wrote:
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need
to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm

So, where is the demarcation line for where the "inland rules start and
the Colregs end?

Which rules did apply in this case and does it make a difference?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

I agree! I think you need to read them again.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need
to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

The demarcation line depends on where you sail.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gary" wrote in message
news:zpPyg.264958$Mn5.8889@pd7tw3no...
Gerald wrote:
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need
to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm

So, where is the demarcation line for where the "inland rules start and
the Colregs end?

Which rules did apply in this case and does it make a difference?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote

Finally, how did you determine that risk of collision existed with
this yacht? What piece of information was key to causing you to
maneouvre?

I had a very good sight of his stem head remaining exactly in line
with the masts for a long period of time in a steady wind during which
he remained in the same place behind my bow pulpit.

After I ran off about 100 yards, making a clear enough course change
demonstrate an intention for us to pass "one whistle", he passed
about 50 yards to windward. That means he might have cleared if no
action had been taken but it would have been equally close and it
would have put him close to leeward which is a bad place for a
closehauled sailboat because it can not change course to increase the
passing distance if a misjudgment has been made by either vessel.

I agree that Wayne is wrong about the "miss is as good as a mile".
Except in confined waters where it may be necessary, there should be
some margin for safety and wake. It's all well and good to say you
shouldn't be out there if you can't take it but the reality is that
sailboats sometimes have people below cooking or who can just fall.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be exposed to any wake but the still
breaking wake within a couple wave lengths of a large vessel passing
much closer than it should is something entirely different. The boat
and I can handle it but who knows who is down below.

Assessing how much "buffer" is appropriate to each crossing situation
is just a basic part of seamanship. Sailboats sometimes need to head
up or bear off quite suddenly to avoid excessive heel angle and
possible loss of control. A clean pass means leaving room for those
possibilities. I do the same for lobsterman who may need to suddenly
circle around as they pick up a buoy. If you "just miss" a trawler
yacht that is yawing and on the edge of a broach in steep quartering
seas, it's not a clean pass because you got inside his safety zone.

--

Roger Long

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

??? I am not sure what do you mean ???

As I mentioned prior ... I know the rules. This thread has evolved to be
somewhat fuzzy. At no point did the original poster state that the incident
took place outside the COLREG line (I am not personnaly familiar with the
Portland area). Several give-and-takes that have taken place here discussed
the use of sound signals to give passing intentions. This is a concept that
does not exist in normal passing situations in COLREG waters. In
INTERNATIONAL waters sound signals are generally (except for narrow
channels) used to announce steering actions taken, not proposed actions as
in INLAND. I incorrectly asssumed from the context of the discussion that
the discussion was about an event that took place under INLAND.

Having since checked a chart for the Portland area, it is now apparent that
the incident may have occured ouside the COLREGS line. While I certainly
didn't say that the INTERNATIONAL rules did not apply, nor that the INLAND
rules did apply, you could reasonable assume that thay may have been my
intention. If so, I stand corrected.


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I agree! I think you need to read them again.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need
to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
??? I am not sure what do you mean ???

As I mentioned prior ... I know the rules. This thread has evolved to be
somewhat fuzzy. At no point did the original poster state that the
incident took place outside the COLREG line (I am not personnaly familiar
with the Portland area). Several give-and-takes that have taken place
here discussed the use of sound signals to give passing intentions. This
is a concept that does not exist in normal passing situations in COLREG
waters. In INTERNATIONAL waters sound signals are generally (except for
narrow channels) used to announce steering actions taken, not proposed
actions as in INLAND. I incorrectly asssumed from the context of the
discussion that the discussion was about an event that took place under
INLAND.

Having since checked a chart for the Portland area, it is now apparent
that the incident may have occured ouside the COLREGS line. While I
certainly didn't say that the INTERNATIONAL rules did not apply, nor that
the INLAND rules did apply, you could reasonable assume that thay may have
been my intention. If so, I stand corrected.


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I agree! I think you need to read them again.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US) need
to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

I don't remember the context... I have always stood corrected from time to
time. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

OK, this is getting a little confusing ... did this event take place outside
the COLREG demarcation line I see just to the south of the island? Your
initial post has spun off some other discussions that could benefit from
this clarification.more below


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Gary" wrote

Finally, how did you determine that risk of collision existed with this
yacht? What piece of information was key to causing you to maneouvre?

I had a very good sight of his stem head remaining exactly in line with
the masts for a long period of time in a steady wind during which he
remained in the same place behind my bow pulpit.

After I ran off about 100 yards, making a clear enough course change
demonstrate an intention for us to pass "one whistle", he passed about 50
yards to windward.

If you were outside the COLREGS line, your "one whistle" signal told the
skipper of the other vessel that "I am altering my course to starboard".
This would require no response from the other vessel. Inside the COLREGS
line your "one whistle" signal would indicate your intention to pass on his
port side and that he should either agree with a similar response or
disagree with a 5 whistle.

I am not trying to justify the other vessels actions or criticize your...
just understand what happened.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Gerald" wrote in message
...
??? I am not sure what do you mean ???

As I mentioned prior ... I know the rules. This thread has evolved to be
somewhat fuzzy. At no point did the original poster state that the
incident took place outside the COLREG line (I am not personnaly familiar
with the Portland area). Several give-and-takes that have taken place
here discussed the use of sound signals to give passing intentions. This
is a concept that does not exist in normal passing situations in COLREG
waters. In INTERNATIONAL waters sound signals are generally (except for
narrow channels) used to announce steering actions taken, not proposed
actions as in INLAND. I incorrectly asssumed from the context of the
discussion that the discussion was about an event that took place under
INLAND.

Having since checked a chart for the Portland area, it is now apparent
that the incident may have occured ouside the COLREGS line. While I
certainly didn't say that the INTERNATIONAL rules did not apply, nor that
the INLAND rules did apply, you could reasonable assume that thay may
have been my intention. If so, I stand corrected.


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I agree! I think you need to read them again.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Nice link .... to the international rules. Most people (In the US)
need to focus on the Inland Rules first. You can always get the most
up-to-date official copy of the Nav Rules (International and Inland at)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/download.htm



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Totally wrong. I think a couple of people need to re-read the colregs.

Here's a link in bigger type for those of us with older eyes...

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...g/colregs.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Wayne.B" wrote

Roger forget the "rules being observed" for a minute. He
didn't hit
you did he? That's his only obligation.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

I don't remember the context...

Man, I hate it when that happens...


I have always stood corrected from time to time. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
??? I am not sure what do you mean ???

As I mentioned prior ... I know the rules. This thread
has evolved to be
somewhat fuzzy. At no point did the original poster state
that the incident
took place outside the COLREG line (I am not personnaly
familiar with the
Portland area). Several give-and-takes that have taken
place here discussed
the use of sound signals to give passing intentions. This
is a concept that
does not exist in normal passing situations in COLREG
waters. In
INTERNATIONAL waters sound signals are generally (except
for narrow
channels) used to announce steering actions taken, not
proposed actions as
in INLAND. I incorrectly asssumed from the context of the
discussion that
the discussion was about an event that took place under
INLAND.

Having since checked a chart for the Portland area, it is
now apparent that
the incident may have occured ouside the COLREGS line.
While I certainly
didn't say that the INTERNATIONAL rules did not apply, nor
that the INLAND
rules did apply, you could reasonable assume that thay may
have been my
intention. If so, I stand corrected.


that was a lot of words just to admit you were wrong.

SV

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:18:03 GMT, Gary wrote:


I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?


In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.

Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?

In my experience, we have always used colors. Like:

"I will meet you green to green." or

"I'll overtake you on your green side" (not used often, we would
normally say starboard side)

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 00:16:39 GMT, Gary wrote:

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

You will also hear things like "Let's meet on two whistles", meaning
starboard-to-starboard.

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Not sure but it is quite possible. I hear captains and harbor pilots
using similar terminology all up and down the east coast of the US.

I have also heard colors used as in "lets pass red-to-red meaning a
normal "one whistle" port-to-port" pass in an oncoming situation, or
something like "I'll pass on your red side", or, "I'll show you my
green light", that sort of thing. A lot of these guys in major
harbors seem to have known each other for years and probably develop a
common working vocabulary.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
??? I am not sure what do you mean ???

As I mentioned prior ... I know the rules. This thread
has evolved to be
somewhat fuzzy. At no point did the original poster state
that the incident
took place outside the COLREG line (I am not personnaly
familiar with the
Portland area). Several give-and-takes that have taken
place here discussed
the use of sound signals to give passing intentions. This
is a concept that
does not exist in normal passing situations in COLREG
waters. In
INTERNATIONAL waters sound signals are generally (except
for narrow
channels) used to announce steering actions taken, not
proposed actions as
in INLAND. I incorrectly asssumed from the context of the
discussion that
the discussion was about an event that took place under
INLAND.

Having since checked a chart for the Portland area, it is
now apparent that
the incident may have occured ouside the COLREGS line.
While I certainly
didn't say that the INTERNATIONAL rules did not apply, nor
that the INLAND
rules did apply, you could reasonable assume that thay may
have been my
intention. If so, I stand corrected.


that was a lot of words just to admit you were wrong.

A lot of words to explain that there was no clear way to tell which rules
applied. In fact much of the supporting discussions and information
provided by the original poster would lead one (not familiar with the actual
area in question) to assume it was under INLAND rules.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:HTSyg.269894$Mn5.193877@pd7tw3no...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:18:03 GMT, Gary wrote:


I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?


In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.

Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?

In my experience, we have always used colors. Like:

"I will meet you green to green." or

"I'll overtake you on your green side" (not used often, we would normally
say starboard side)

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Gary

Interesting Gary. Where do you boat out of? I have been traveling up and
down the US East Coast for years. "One / two whistle pass" is the normal
day agreement language I hear --- certainly when talking with commercial
boats. I occasionally hear green / red amongst recreational boaters ... but
not very often.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Just to be sure everyone is on the same page..... the term COLREGS applies
to the International Rules (though many will apply the term to both Inland
and International). When talking about the COLREGS demarcation lines, it's
probably best to use Inland or International to describe which side of the
line your are on.

otn

"Gerald" wrote in message
...
Good point Gary. The original post talks about "returning back in" and
"hopeing to clear" Ram Island and being in the Portland Main area. I see
a Ram Island just inside the COLREG line on the approach to Portland. It
seems likely that COLREGS probably applied to the situation.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to red" are
frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots, tugboat/workboat
operators and as they are self explanatory as to meaning, for a given
situation, it is unlikely that you will find them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling is the
tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US pilots come from
tugboats).

otn

"Gary" wrote in message
news:HTSyg.269894$Mn5.193877@pd7tw3no...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:18:03 GMT, Gary wrote:


I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?


In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.

Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?

In my experience, we have always used colors. Like:

"I will meet you green to green." or

"I'll overtake you on your green side" (not used often, we would normally
say starboard side)

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to red" are
frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots, tugboat/workboat
operators and as they are self explanatory as to meaning, for a given
situation, it is unlikely that you will find them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling is the
tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US pilots come from
tugboats).

otn

"Gary" wrote in message
news:HTSyg.269894$Mn5.193877@pd7tw3no...

Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:18:03 GMT, Gary wrote:



I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?


In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.


Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?

In my experience, we have always used colors. Like:

"I will meet you green to green." or

"I'll overtake you on your green side" (not used often, we would normally
say starboard side)

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Gary



I know we covered the various whistle signals in one of the early Power
& Sail Squadron courses. I'll have to dig my text books out and refresh
my memory.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules.

Let me get this straight, you didn't use the radio because you
shouldn't have to if some one is following the rules, but at the same
time you state they weren't following the rules and you still didn't
use the radio.

So at what point would you use your hand held radio? After they had
run you over to call for help?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:58:06 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I've never heard a conversation along the lines of, "Big white yacht,
you aren't really going to just continue on that course like I wasn't
even here, are you?" I can't remember a radio exchange where someone
had to ask for the rules to be observed.


Then you need to have your radio on more often. Those kind of calls
are not that uncommon.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gerald wrote:


Interesting Gary. Where do you boat out of? I have been traveling up and
down the US East Coast for years. "One / two whistle pass" is the normal
day agreement language I hear --- certainly when talking with commercial
boats. I occasionally hear green / red amongst recreational boaters ... but
not very often.



I sailed out of Halifax for 10 years ranging as far as the Baltic, the
north cape, the Med and the Caribbean with many months of sailing up and
down the east coast of the US. I currently sail out of Victoria BC
ranging as far as Central America, Korea and Hong Kong.

I am in the Navy, I have about 18 years of sea time, seven in Command.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to red" are
frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots, tugboat/workboat
operators and as they are self explanatory as to meaning, for a given
situation, it is unlikely that you will find them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling is the
tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US pilots come from
tugboats).

otn


So what you are saying is it's slang, local terminology?

I have visited many American Ports, most recently Seattle a couple weeks
ago where I took a 100 foot sailing ship up the Chittendam Locks talking
all the way with Seattle traffic and other ships and no-one said one or
two whistle anything.

I thing it must be a very local phrase, certainly not in common use out
here or in Canadian Ports.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

It was outside the COLREG line.

An aside on the radio aspect of this:

Whatever you think about my not making a radio call, the fact that I
was not calling or possibly responding to a call they might be making,
should have caused them to give me a little more room. The safety
margin for a vessel you are in communication with can be a smaller
because there is more certainty about their intentions.

Just last night in slightly less wind, I watched a Pearson lose rudder
control and shoot wildly up into the wind for a good distance. If he
had been the boat in this encounter and it had happened just before
the passing, he could have been struck. Whoever was driving the mega
yacht had no way of assessing the nature of my vessel's underbody
configuration or my helmsmanship abilities. Just think of the cost of
repairing the hull scratches on something that large and highly
polished to say nothing of the paperwork, bad press, and lawsuits.

Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient
distance to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat,
it isn't wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting
something like a floating log might force them to hit either it or
you.

--

Roger Long

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to red"
are frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots, tugboat/workboat
operators and as they are self explanatory as to meaning, for a given
situation, it is unlikely that you will find them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling
is the tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US pilots
come from tugboats).

otn


So what you are saying is it's slang, local terminology?

I have visited many American Ports, most recently Seattle a couple weeks
ago where I took a 100 foot sailing ship up the Chittendam Locks talking
all the way with Seattle traffic and other ships and no-one said one or
two whistle anything.

I thing it must be a very local phrase, certainly not in common use out
here or in Canadian Ports.

Gary


The ships whistle you hear most often in Halifax is when they are
casting off to leave their dock.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

If by "local" you mean the US, then yes.
Generally, you are more apt to hear these terms on the Gulf coast and East
coast, but you may still hear them out on the West coast.
Keep in mind that pilots tend to work on channels you are not normally
monitoring so that much of their normal "passing" traffic may not be heard
by you and it is not uncommon for tugs and other workboats to know these
channels (except when pilots use UHF) so they switch and make passing
arrangements on those channels.
You would need to frequent a particular area for awhile to know for sure
whether these terms were being used there, but it's probably more important
to know that you MAY hear them.
Where I work, I normally use "port to port", etc., but I frequently will
hear "red to red" and occasionally "one whistle"...... no big deal, one way
or the other.

otn

"Gary" wrote in message
news:JaXyg.278951$IK3.238705@pd7tw1no...

So what you are saying is it's slang, local terminology?

I have visited many American Ports, most recently Seattle a couple weeks
ago where I took a 100 foot sailing ship up the Chittendam Locks talking
all the way with Seattle traffic and other ships and no-one said one or
two whistle anything.

I thing it must be a very local phrase, certainly not in common use out
here or in Canadian Ports.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

otnmbrd wrote:
If by "local" you mean the US, then yes.
Generally, you are more apt to hear these terms on the Gulf coast and East
coast, but you may still hear them out on the West coast.
Keep in mind that pilots tend to work on channels you are not normally
monitoring so that much of their normal "passing" traffic may not be heard
by you and it is not uncommon for tugs and other workboats to know these
channels (except when pilots use UHF) so they switch and make passing
arrangements on those channels.
You would need to frequent a particular area for awhile to know for sure
whether these terms were being used there, but it's probably more important
to know that you MAY hear them.
Where I work, I normally use "port to port", etc., but I frequently will
hear "red to red" and occasionally "one whistle"...... no big deal, one way
or the other.

otn

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to indicate
intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It wouldn't work
here in the Pacific Northwest.

As far as channels monitored for intership and passing arrangements, I
monitor the correct ones as dictated by the local the Vessel Traffic
Management System (VTMS), where ever I am. It is the law. If the
pilots and tugs are on a separate working channel using their own
version of slang, then it just doesn't matter to those of us driving
ships. Presumably, if they were making arrangements with me, they would
be on the proper designated channel, using the proper terminology and
monitored by the local VTMS.


Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Roger Long wrote:
It was outside the COLREG line.

An aside on the radio aspect of this:

Whatever you think about my not making a radio call, the fact that I
was not calling or possibly responding to a call they might be making,
should have caused them to give me a little more room. The safety
margin for a vessel you are in communication with can be a smaller
because there is more certainty about their intentions.

Just last night in slightly less wind, I watched a Pearson lose rudder
control and shoot wildly up into the wind for a good distance. If he
had been the boat in this encounter and it had happened just before
the passing, he could have been struck. Whoever was driving the mega
yacht had no way of assessing the nature of my vessel's underbody
configuration or my helmsmanship abilities. Just think of the cost of
repairing the hull scratches on something that large and highly
polished to say nothing of the paperwork, bad press, and lawsuits.

Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient
distance to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat,
it isn't wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting
something like a floating log might force them to hit either it or
you.

Good points. Of course one does not normally make passing arrangements
based on the likelihood that the opposing ship will lose control. Good
seamanship, however, does demand a certain degree of prudence.

Prudence should also dictate reducing sail when there is a risk of
rounding up and loosing control in narrow channels. It is also easier
on gear.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Don White wrote:
Gary wrote:

otnmbrd wrote:

Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to
red" are frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots, tugboat/workboat
operators and as they are self explanatory as to meaning, for a given
situation, it is unlikely that you will find them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling
is the tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US
pilots come from tugboats).

otn


So what you are saying is it's slang, local terminology?

I have visited many American Ports, most recently Seattle a couple
weeks ago where I took a 100 foot sailing ship up the Chittendam Locks
talking all the way with Seattle traffic and other ships and no-one
said one or two whistle anything.

I thing it must be a very local phrase, certainly not in common use
out here or in Canadian Ports.

Gary



The ships whistle you hear most often in Halifax is when they are
casting off to leave their dock.

From what I understand, we are not talking about actual whistle
signals, but radiotelephone communications.

You won't hear a ship leaving the dock in Halifax getting on the radio
and saying. "I intend one prolonged whistle and three short departure."

Certainly, when I leave my berth (every working day) I sound the signals
and indicate my intentions to the Harbour Authority, as does everyone
else, but I never hear whistles talked about on the radio, by the tugs,
pilots or anyone else.

Gary
PS At home, with my scanner going on all channels, I don't hear that
terminology either. The Straits of Juan de Fuca, right outside my
window is a very busy chunk of water with compulsory pilotage, much tug
traffic and everything else. I would guess 30 freighters/cruise
ships/warships etc a day go by and many more pleasure craft and work boats.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary wrote:
Don White wrote:

Gary wrote:

otnmbrd wrote:

Gary,
G Obviously you haven't visited too many US ports.
The terms "one whistle", "two whistle", "green to green", "red to
red" are frequently used, as are "stbd to stbd", "port to port".
You will mainly find the terms being used by Pilots,
tugboat/workboat operators and as they are self explanatory as to
meaning, for a given situation, it is unlikely that you will find
them written down anywhere.
As to who started the usage, it's anyone's guess, but my own feeling
is the tugboats and it progressed from there to Pilots (Many US
pilots come from tugboats).

otn


So what you are saying is it's slang, local terminology?

I have visited many American Ports, most recently Seattle a couple
weeks ago where I took a 100 foot sailing ship up the Chittendam
Locks talking all the way with Seattle traffic and other ships and
no-one said one or two whistle anything.

I thing it must be a very local phrase, certainly not in common use
out here or in Canadian Ports.

Gary




The ships whistle you hear most often in Halifax is when they are
casting off to leave their dock.


From what I understand, we are not talking about actual whistle
signals, but radiotelephone communications.

You won't hear a ship leaving the dock in Halifax getting on the radio
and saying. "I intend one prolonged whistle and three short departure."

Certainly, when I leave my berth (every working day) I sound the signals
and indicate my intentions to the Harbour Authority, as does everyone
else, but I never hear whistles talked about on the radio, by the tugs,
pilots or anyone else.

Gary
PS At home, with my scanner going on all channels, I don't hear that
terminology either. The Straits of Juan de Fuca, right outside my
window is a very busy chunk of water with compulsory pilotage, much tug
traffic and everything else. I would guess 30 freighters/cruise
ships/warships etc a day go by and many more pleasure craft and work boats.

You're right.
When I'm bored..usually in the winter..I someties monitor channels 12,
14 16, 68 etc and never hear anyone actually talking about whistles.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:ya4zg.277406$Mn5.147616@pd7tw3no...
Roger Long wrote:
It was outside the COLREG line.

An aside on the radio aspect of this:

Whatever you think about my not making a radio call, the fact that I was
not calling or possibly responding to a call they might be making, should
have caused them to give me a little more room. The safety margin for a
vessel you are in communication with can be a smaller because there is
more certainty about their intentions.

Just last night in slightly less wind, I watched a Pearson lose rudder
control and shoot wildly up into the wind for a good distance. If he had
been the boat in this encounter and it had happened just before the
passing, he could have been struck. Whoever was driving the mega yacht
had no way of assessing the nature of my vessel's underbody configuration
or my helmsmanship abilities. Just think of the cost of repairing the
hull scratches on something that large and highly polished to say nothing
of the paperwork, bad press, and lawsuits.

Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient distance
to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat, it isn't
wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting something
like a floating log might force them to hit either it or you.

Good points. Of course one does not normally make passing arrangements
based on the likelihood that the opposing ship will lose control. Good
seamanship, however, does demand a certain degree of prudence.

Prudence should also dictate reducing sail when there is a risk of
rounding up and loosing control in narrow channels. It is also easier on
gear.

Gary

And, you should see some of the turkeys on the SF bay when the wind is the
normal 20kts with gusts to 30. An amazing number of expensive boats rounding
up over and over and over. You'd think they'd get it, but they don't.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:l54zg.277400$Mn5.102305@pd7tw3no...
otnmbrd wrote:

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to indicate
intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It wouldn't work
here in the Pacific Northwest.

As far as channels monitored for intership and passing arrangements, I
monitor the correct ones as dictated by the local the Vessel Traffic
Management System (VTMS), where ever I am. It is the law. If the pilots
and tugs are on a separate working channel using their own version of
slang, then it just doesn't matter to those of us driving ships.
Presumably, if they were making arrangements with me, they would be on the
proper designated channel, using the proper terminology and monitored by
the local VTMS.


Gary

It occurs to me that the two skippers are discussing how they will pass each
other via VHF, they could even perform a "Yankee Doodle Whistle," if they so
decided.