Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:14:44 -0400, "Sal's Dad"
wrote:

What am I missing?

What you are missing is the "prudent man" thing. If it looks like you
may be on a collision course with another vessel, and if you have time
to do so, it is prudent to attempt communication of some sort to clear
things up. VHF is the communications medium of choice in most coastal
areas, even with smaller boats.

While you're right, it is also not *required* equipment on a small
boat.




--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

VHF Radios onboard was Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

In article ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no,
Gary wrote:
I think we can sum this up by saying that:

Roger was probably in the right as far as Colregs and right of way was
concerned.

Single handing demands some effort to think ahead and does not grant you
any special status.

The discussion that has evolved is the requirement to have/use VHF.
That is a good topic.

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?

Furthermore, if one is onboard why wouldn't you make best use of it as
required by the Colregs?

(I interpret the rules to say that if you have one you must use it.
Just like radar etc. "all available means")

Reminds me of a night sail many years ago... we're off the SF city
fron in the bay heading down to pier 40 to call it a night. We're
under sail, starboard broad reach. Beautiful conditions. Another
sailboat comes up on our port side, engine on, sails down, and pretty
darn close. We don't have much room to go to starboard, and I'm trying
to think of what the hell to do if he turns into us.

Finally, he's getting pretty close, so I try calling over to
him. Stupid move, he comes even closer, apparently so he can hear
me. Finally, he can hear me (we're talking 10 feet away now), and I
ask him what the hell he wants. His reply was do you have any gas? I
say, no, and I'm not even going to try (we're diesel anyway). He asks
if I know of a fuel dock in the area. I say sure, but I think they're
all closed at this hour. I ask, why don't you raise your sails if
you're low on "gas"? He says, oh, yeah.... clearly, this guy doesn't
have a clue. I say, if you're really concerned why don't you hail
Vessel Assist on 16, and they'll come get you? He says, I don't have a
radio. Grrr... so I say, do you want me to call for you? He says, no
and motors away, across toward Oakland.

I tried to yell to him to turn on his running, steaming, stern lights,
but he didn't hear me. Shhheeeeeeez...

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

VHF Radios onboard was Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Nice summary Gary.

Its interesting that so far on this thread there's an assumption
that having a VHF to hand means that you'll be able to communicate
with a potential collision risk vessel.

First, he's got to have a VHF too.
Then it's got to be switched on.
Listening out on the right channel.
Then he's got to identify that he's being called -
"Vessel at 33deg 23min N, 120deg 45min E, . . .

While all these assumptions might be valid on an inland waterway
where there's a designated VHF channel, they certainly wouldn't
apply in most European seas, and certainly not in Greek waters!
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas



"Gary" wrote in message
news:ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no...
I think we can sum this up by saying that:

Roger was probably in the right as far as Colregs and right of
way was concerned.

Single handing demands some effort to think ahead and does not
grant you any special status.

The discussion that has evolved is the requirement to have/use
VHF. That is a good topic.

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure
craft but I wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic
safety onboard safety item?

Furthermore, if one is onboard why wouldn't you make best use of
it as required by the Colregs?

(I interpret the rules to say that if you have one you must use
it. Just like radar etc. "all available means")

Gary

VHF Radios onboard was Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"News f2s" wrote:

Nice summary Gary.

Its interesting that so far on this thread there's an assumption
that having a VHF to hand means that you'll be able to communicate
with a potential collision risk vessel.

First, he's got to have a VHF too.

I would think that a vessel that large would have to, although I know
of some sailboats that do not.

Then it's got to be switched on.

I know people who sail (and single hand) who have a radio and do not
switch it on because there's too much traffic, and it is too noisy.
This is another issue like the radar one - in the US at least, if you
have a radio it should be on and monitoring channel 16.

Listening out on the right channel.
Then he's got to identify that he's being called -
"Vessel at 33deg 23min N, 120deg 45min E, . . .

I don't know that I would be able to identify myself if someone was
calling me with that designation. The name of the boat is the best
way to hail, and alternatively a description of the boat and place.
"Sailboat by Hooper's Island Light" for instance.

We have our name in big letters on both the bow and stern, so someone
should be able to make at attempt at the name if they can see us, but
not everyone does. I've seen trawlers with their dinghy stowed
against the transom completely hiding the name there.

While all these assumptions might be valid on an inland waterway
where there's a designated VHF channel, they certainly wouldn't
apply in most European seas, and certainly not in Greek waters!

It isn't just the ICW where there is a designated channel. It is the
whole of the US and I think also Canada and much of the Caribbean.

VHF Radios onboard was Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary wrote:

I think we can sum this up by saying that:

Roger was probably in the right as far as Colregs and right of way was
concerned.

Single handing demands some effort to think ahead and does not grant you
any special status.

The discussion that has evolved is the requirement to have/use VHF.
That is a good topic.

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?

Because they are too noisy, and too much chatter. I am nosy, so I
want to know what is going on. In the Chesapeake it is like listening
in on a party line, especially if you have a scanner. And we do. Bob
doesn't like to use it and would prefer just to listen to channel 16.

In addition, he's a little deaf and he doesn't really listen to what's
going on anyway, whether it is the radio or me. (The most common word
in our conversation is "What?") So if there is a call that we need to
pay attention to, it is up to me to tell him about it.

Furthermore, if one is onboard why wouldn't you make best use of it as
required by the Colregs?

We have the radio mike available in the cockpit, and the speaker is
also in the cockpit. Not everyone does.

(I interpret the rules to say that if you have one you must use it.
Just like radar etc. "all available means")

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:18:03 GMT, Gary wrote:

I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?

In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.

Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_f...Rules32-38.pdf

This is a link that explains both rules. - international and national
rules. Both of them have whistle signals.

I do agree however as someone who is left and right challenged that it
would be more understandable to me if one used colors.


In my experience, we have always used colors. Like:

"I will meet you green to green." or

"I'll overtake you on your green side" (not used often, we would
normally say starboard side)

We do use whistle signals but they don't agree with your "pass on two
whistles".

Is that an inland US rules thing?

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Gary wrote:

Sailaway wrote:
Roger Long wrote:
Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient
distance to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat,
it isn't wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting
something like a floating log might force them to hit either it or you.

Gary wrote:
Good points. Of course one does not normally make passing
arrangements based on the likelihood that the opposing ship will lose
control. Good seamanship, however, does demand a certain degree of
prudence.

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to
indicate intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It
wouldn't work here in the Pacific Northwest.


And that brings up the above discussion on "whistle" passes. Please go
back and read the Rules on signals. Whistle (or horn) signals (although,
sadly, not as commonly used by small craft as before) are required under
certain conditions. If a radio request includes discussion of sound
signals you shouldn't have any problem figuring out the meaning if you
are familiar with the signals and their meanings. And unless I am not
fully understanding the above discussions, it is truly frightening to
read of a Navy Captain who doesn't understand sound signals that are
very clearly spelled out in both the COLREGs and the Inland Rules.

I enjoyed your well written thoughts right up to the paragraph above. I
would like to point out that nowhere in any of the Colregs does it talk
about using slang like "two whistle pass" on the radio. You had me
thinking though and I did have to go back and read "Part D - Sound and
Light Signals" again. In there, when ships are in sight of one another,
two blasts on the whistle indicates a vessel altering to port. (I'm sure
you knew that) So does a "Two whistle pass" mean that both vessels
alter to port (and leave each other to starboard) or leave each other to
their port side. Do you see my point? It is confusing.

Yes but then it is the original signal rules that are confusing, not
the radio communication. If a boat was approaching you and sounded
two whistles, what would that mean to you?

I do understand sound signals, what we are talking about here is voice
communications with slang terms. It would be clear to me what two short
blasts on an opposing vessels whistle meant. It still would not be
clear to me what he means if he calls me up and says; "How about a two
whistle pass?"

It should be understandable (IMHO) if you know what the whistles mean.
I understood what it meant even though I would have to look up what
one or two whistle was.

The only thing the radio communications does is keep the
'conversation' between the two parties that need to understand each
other's intentions. How often do you hear an automobile honk the horn
and have to look around to see whether they were honking at you? In a
busy harbor, if everyone was whistling away, it would be chaos. And
even in the ICW it would be an unwarranted amount of noise to do it
with whistles rather than with the radio.


Please go back and read the rules on signals. Maybe you didn't
understand the discussion.


In the ICW there are whistle signals for bridges, but many bridges
won't respond to them anymore. They require that you hail them on the
radio, or in some cases on a cell phone.

VHF Radios onboard was Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no,
Gary wrote:

I think we can sum this up by saying that:

Roger was probably in the right as far as Colregs and right of way was
concerned.

Single handing demands some effort to think ahead and does not grant you
any special status.

The discussion that has evolved is the requirement to have/use VHF.
That is a good topic.

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?

Furthermore, if one is onboard why wouldn't you make best use of it as
required by the Colregs?

(I interpret the rules to say that if you have one you must use it.
Just like radar etc. "all available means")


Reminds me of a night sail many years ago... we're off the SF city
fron in the bay heading down to pier 40 to call it a night. We're
under sail, starboard broad reach. Beautiful conditions. Another
sailboat comes up on our port side, engine on, sails down, and pretty
darn close. We don't have much room to go to starboard, and I'm trying
to think of what the hell to do if he turns into us.

Finally, he's getting pretty close, so I try calling over to
him. Stupid move, he comes even closer, apparently so he can hear
me. Finally, he can hear me (we're talking 10 feet away now), and I
ask him what the hell he wants. His reply was do you have any gas? I
say, no, and I'm not even going to try (we're diesel anyway). He asks
if I know of a fuel dock in the area. I say sure, but I think they're
all closed at this hour. I ask, why don't you raise your sails if
you're low on "gas"? He says, oh, yeah.... clearly, this guy doesn't
have a clue. I say, if you're really concerned why don't you hail
Vessel Assist on 16, and they'll come get you? He says, I don't have a
radio. Grrr... so I say, do you want me to call for you? He says, no
and motors away, across toward Oakland.

I tried to yell to him to turn on his running, steaming, stern lights,
but he didn't hear me. Shhheeeeeeez...


Now that sounds like a power boater impersonating a sailor.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Rosalie B. wrote:
Gary wrote:

I wouldn't clearly understand what a "pass on two whistles" is. I am a
ships captain. What does it mean?

In an meeting situation it means you intend to pass the vessel on your
(and his) starboard side, the reverse of the normal port-to-port
oncoming pass.

I thought this was more or less universally understood, perhaps not,
but then again I am not a ships captain...

In an overtaking situation it also means you intend to leave the other
vessel on your starboard side, their port side.


Interesting, is that written down in some book I could refer to? I have
never encountered this way of speaking on the radio. It sounds archaic
but I would like to read about it somewhere.

Do you have a reference?


http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_f...Rules32-38.pdf

This is a link that explains both rules. - international and national
rules. Both of them have whistle signals.

I do agree however as someone who is left and right challenged that it
would be more understandable to me if one used colors.


Thanks for the reference. That does clear things up for US Inland
rules. I like the way they are presented contrasting with the Colregs.

Note that the same signals do not apply outside the demarcation line and
Roger was outside.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote

Sailing single handed in a strong breeze does not excuse anyone from
seamanlike obligations or responsibilities

Why is there no comment about being 228 feet long and owned by someone
richer than God not excusing an operator from seamanlike obligations
or responsibilities?

(the radio) could/should have been readily at hand and turned on

The radio is a back up. Contact is not necessary for the rules of the
road to be in force. Radio break, not all boats have radios,
operating a vessel in this situation with the expectation that you
don't have to observe the rules of the road unless you get a radio
call is neither seamanlike nor responsible.

, sail could/should have been shortened to a more managable level,
an
autopilot could/should be available when single or short handing.

Come on, that's like saying all powerboats should be operated slower
because it will give everyone more time to react to crossing
situations. My vessel was quite managable. It's not that I couldn't
get the radio but that it was easier to simply run off. I ended up
closer to Ram Island than I would have liked but I still cleared it.


You have some dangerous preconceptions.

Look, this is not about me. I handled it smoothly and easily. I
expect this kind of "blind on autopilot" behavior from fishing
vessels. Their crews are dead tired and their world is crumbling
around them as they try to keep up with mortgages. I also expect it
from large vessels that I selfishly don't want dodging every small
yacht among the obstructions of Maine, even if they aren't in the
channel.

My post was about the fact that a no expense spared vessel, presumably
with crew of similar caliber to the paint job, whose Captain and crew
had just spent two weeks tied to the dock in Portland's most luxurious
spot, could behave this way with no way of assessing skill level,
radio functioning (or even existence), etc. aboard my vessel. The
rules of the road don't require them to think about these things, they
simply require them to punch 2 -3 degrees into the autopilot for five
minutes at the appropriate time and then back. There is nothing in
the rules of the road that says they don't have to do this unless
there is radio contact.

If I had been closely obstructed by the shore or had a sheet jammed in
a winch, I certainly would have made a radio call. I could have done
it but it was easier to just divert it a way that made it obvious I
was going to keep clear. I handled it properly and differently than
you might have but THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT!