Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:l54zg.277400$Mn5.102305@pd7tw3no...
otnmbrd wrote:

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to indicate
intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It wouldn't work
here in the Pacific Northwest.

As far as channels monitored for intership and passing arrangements, I
monitor the correct ones as dictated by the local the Vessel Traffic
Management System (VTMS), where ever I am. It is the law. If the pilots
and tugs are on a separate working channel using their own version of
slang, then it just doesn't matter to those of us driving ships.
Presumably, if they were making arrangements with me, they would be on the
proper designated channel, using the proper terminology and monitored by
the local VTMS.


Gary

It occurs to me that the two skippers are discussing how they will pass each
other via VHF, they could even perform a "Yankee Doodle Whistle Pass," if
they so
decided.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:l54zg.277400$Mn5.102305@pd7tw3no...

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to indicate
intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It wouldn't work
here in the Pacific Northwest.

I'm not disagreeing with your point about "around the world" rather
explaining that you do hear it frequently in US waters.
The main reason it works and is used here is the Inland Rules and how
passing situation signals are set up. What is important, is not the fact
that you don't hear it used in your area, but that if you are travelling to
other areas of the States, you may well hear the terms being used and if you
know that you are not as apt to wonder what's going on.


As far as channels monitored for intership and passing arrangements, I
monitor the correct ones as dictated by the local the Vessel Traffic
Management System (VTMS), where ever I am. It is the law. If the pilots
and tugs are on a separate working channel using their own version of
slang, then it just doesn't matter to those of us driving ships.
Presumably, if they were making arrangements with me, they would be on the
proper designated channel, using the proper terminology and monitored by
the local VTMS.

Not all Ports/harbors have VTS. Whenever you are in an unfamiliar area VTS
will be a great first choice but you need to be aware that it may not be
available and some local slang/channels may be in effect especially if you
are "driving ships". Although proper terminology is great, it's not always
used.

otn

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Roger Long wrote:
Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient
distance to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat,
it isn't wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting
something like a floating log might force them to hit either it or you.

Gary wrote:
Good points. Of course one does not normally make passing
arrangements based on the likelihood that the opposing ship will lose
control. Good seamanship, however, does demand a certain degree of
prudence.

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to
indicate intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It
wouldn't work here in the Pacific Northwest.

In the early sixties when I began boating there seemed to be a boating
etiquette that was generally followed. The boaters I met or even read
about all seemed to be the type of people who would be appalled to be
exposed to boaters who didn't practice good seamanship *and* polite
boating etiquette, and would have been certainly mortified to be caught
practicing either poor seamanship or bad etiquette. I have a copy of
Chapmans from the sixties and quite a bit of the book was dedicated to
those two things.

Now while I certainly haven't spent my life at sea, I have some pretty
varied sea time on power vessels, sailboats, and ships. And what I have
been observing over the last few years seems to be an increase in poor
seamanship being practiced in both large and small vessels, and
especially a general decrease in boating etiquette. I believe some of
this is related to a sense of arrogance that some captains and other
boaters seem to display just like more seem to do in cars and trucks
these days.

Either(and both) of these changes, I believe, are going to lead to more
danger on the water.

I have only recently started to study for the OUPV license so I will
certainly not claim to be any kind of expert, and I welcome all
*constructive* criticism. That said, I have already seen enough on the
water to be wary, and read enough of the Reg's to be almost frightened
by what some on this NG and others have said over time. Even this
present thread shows so many opinions rather than a thorough knowledge
of the rules. One of the reason for rules (other than the obvious) is
for conformity - everyone is on the same page so to speak, which leads
to safer boating.

In reference to the above thread, for example, 35 or so years ago when I
took up motorcycle riding I had an accident. I just couldn't believe at
that time that someone who was looking straight at my face as I came
down the road would still just pull out in front of me when I got close.
I have never made that mistake again. When I am at the helm of a boat
(or airplane, bike, car, etc.) I assume that all others out there can
have a brain-fart or a mechanical failure that may put me in danger. I
am not paranoid, but I am always prudent, and therefore safer. I ALWAYS
take the responsibility for my vessel's safety, no-matter-what. And that
includes clear, timely, responsible communication and action, in the
appropriate manner. Oh and remember the guy with that twisted sense of
humor - Mr. Murphy seems to enjoy showing up at those times when you
have the least time to react.

And that brings up the above discussion on "whistle" passes. Please go
back and read the Rules on signals. Whistle (or horn) signals (although,
sadly, not as commonly used by small craft as before) are required under
certain conditions. If a radio request includes discussion of sound
signals you shouldn't have any problem figuring out the meaning if you
are familiar with the signals and their meanings. And unless I am not
fully understanding the above discussions, it is truly frightening to
read of a Navy Captain who doesn't understand sound signals that are
very clearly spelled out in both the COLREGs and the Inland Rules.

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

What part of Roger's explanation did you miss?

The strong winds?

The fact that he was operating single handed?

The fact that he had the right of way but was bullied into giving it
up?

Just exactly when is a singlehanded sailor in a strong wind expected to
drop the sheet or the steering apparatus to pick up, turn on, tune in
the correct channel, and broadcast a radio call on a handheld radio?
When some rich asshole in a big yacht is about to run him over, I
guess.

That is totally ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why don't you do a google search and look up some of Roger's previous
postings? He isn't exactly a rookie...


Capt. Bill wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules.

Let me get this straight, you didn't use the radio because you
shouldn't have to if some one is following the rules, but at the same
time you state they weren't following the rules and you still didn't
use the radio.

So at what point would you use your hand held radio? After they had
run you over to call for help?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

If there is any doubt concerning the actions of the other yacht, you should
definitely call them on the radio.

wrote in message
oups.com...
What part of Roger's explanation did you miss?

The strong winds?

The fact that he was operating single handed?

The fact that he had the right of way but was bullied into giving it
up?

Just exactly when is a singlehanded sailor in a strong wind expected to
drop the sheet or the steering apparatus to pick up, turn on, tune in
the correct channel, and broadcast a radio call on a handheld radio?
When some rich asshole in a big yacht is about to run him over, I
guess.

That is totally ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why don't you do a google search and look up some of Roger's previous
postings? He isn't exactly a rookie...


Capt. Bill wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules.

Let me get this straight, you didn't use the radio because you
shouldn't have to if some one is following the rules, but at the same
time you state they weren't following the rules and you still didn't
use the radio.

So at what point would you use your hand held radio? After they had
run you over to call for help?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Sailaway wrote:
Roger Long wrote:
Good seamanship dictates passing, when possible, by a sufficient
distance to accommodate the unexpected. Even powerboat to powerboat,
it isn't wise to put the stand on vessel in a position where spotting
something like a floating log might force them to hit either it or you.

Gary wrote:
Good points. Of course one does not normally make passing
arrangements based on the likelihood that the opposing ship will lose
control. Good seamanship, however, does demand a certain degree of
prudence.

My original point was that the terms "one or two whistle pass" is not
commonly used by mariners around the world. It might not be clearly
understood. It may work when dealing with tug boats and pilots in a
particular area of the US but it is not a good way to learn to
indicate intentions if you venture a little farther from home. It
wouldn't work here in the Pacific Northwest.


And that brings up the above discussion on "whistle" passes. Please go
back and read the Rules on signals. Whistle (or horn) signals (although,
sadly, not as commonly used by small craft as before) are required under
certain conditions. If a radio request includes discussion of sound
signals you shouldn't have any problem figuring out the meaning if you
are familiar with the signals and their meanings. And unless I am not
fully understanding the above discussions, it is truly frightening to
read of a Navy Captain who doesn't understand sound signals that are
very clearly spelled out in both the COLREGs and the Inland Rules.

I enjoyed your well written thoughts right up to the paragraph above. I
would like to point out that nowhere in any of the Colregs does it talk
about using slang like "two whistle pass" on the radio. You had me
thinking though and I did have to go back and read "Part D - Sound and
Light Signals" again. In there, when ships are in sight of one another,
two blasts on the whistle indicates a vessel altering to port. (I'm sure
you knew that) So does a "Two whistle pass" mean that both vessels
alter to port (and leave each other to starboard) or leave each other to
their port side. Do you see my point? It is confusing.

I do understand sound signals, what we are talking about here is voice
communications with slang terms. It would be clear to me what two short
blasts on an opposing vessels whistle meant. It still would not be
clear to me what he means if he calls me up and says; "How about a two
whistle pass?"

Please go back and read the rules on signals. Maybe you didn't
understand the discussion.

Gary

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

BZZZZZTT - Wrong Answer!!!!

The number one concern is to safely operate the boat and not get run
over by an idiot operating a much bigger boat. Singlehanding in a
strong wind near shore doesn't allow the luxury of screwing around with
a handheld radio and trying to chat up the the yacht operator.

Do any of you "Should'a called him on the radio" folks have ANY
experience singlehanding a 32' sailboat? It seems really obvious to me
that the answer is NO. Give it a try sometime and you might start
posting from a position of experience.

If Roger had not had a handheld radio, would he still be "wrong" to
expect a professional yacht captain to know and obey the rules of the
road? Or do you think that since he didn't have a fixed VHF radio, a
Bluetooth headset/microphone for it, a VOX mike, and an autopilot, he
clearly is under equipped? Give me a break. The yacht operator needs
to have a unpleasant chat with the Coast Guard and some remedial
training.

Roger didn't get run over and lived to post about it. We should all be
thankful that the event turned out as well as it did.

What happened to the guy that says he knows the yacht captain? What did
the yacht captain say?

I pulled this passage from rec.aviation.homebuilt. There was a
fatality at Oshkosh this year. A Grumman TBM Avenger ran over an RV6
and killed the person in the right seat.

Begin quoted text

I'm prejudiced. Of course I'm prejudiced. In 5000+ flight hours, I've
never come as close to a midair as I did at Oshkosh 1999. Oshkosh
Tower: "BlueOnBlue Cessna, number three for runway 27. Ercoupe put it
on the numbers. Flight of three T6s, cross over runway 27, right
downwind for runway 27, caution the Cessna at the gravel pit."

(Warbird flight leader) "OK fellers, let's show them what a warbird
arrival is like."

The Cessna is looking, looking, and turns downwind. The copilot
screams, "Oh, my God " and the pilot turns hard left, only to see two
wings perhaps fifty feet below. Tower tells warbirds that they nearly
had a midair with a Cessna. Warbird flight leader, "Then tell tell the
little b@$+@rd to get out of our way."

end quoted text

In my opinion, the attitude of the the warbird flight leader mirrors
the attitude of the yacht operator.

YMMV


Richard wrote:
If there is any doubt concerning the actions of the other yacht, you should
definitely call them on the radio.

wrote in message
oups.com...
What part of Roger's explanation did you miss?

The strong winds?

The fact that he was operating single handed?

The fact that he had the right of way but was bullied into giving it
up?

Just exactly when is a singlehanded sailor in a strong wind expected to
drop the sheet or the steering apparatus to pick up, turn on, tune in
the correct channel, and broadcast a radio call on a handheld radio?
When some rich asshole in a big yacht is about to run him over, I
guess.

That is totally ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why don't you do a google search and look up some of Roger's previous
postings? He isn't exactly a rookie...


Capt. Bill wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules.

Let me get this straight, you didn't use the radio because you
shouldn't have to if some one is following the rules, but at the same
time you state they weren't following the rules and you still didn't
use the radio.

So at what point would you use your hand held radio? After they had
run you over to call for help?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

Dig a little deeper into Roger's web site. I can't say the site design
is spectacular. If you think that Roger is just a marine architect, you
would be wrong. I recommend the "Roger Long" link.

Gary wrote:
wrote:
What part of Roger's explanation did you miss?

The strong winds?
Not an excuse.

The fact that he was operating single handed?
Not an excuse.

The fact that he had the right of way but was bullied into giving it
up?
Not certain.

Just exactly when is a singlehanded sailor in a strong wind expected to
drop the sheet or the steering apparatus to pick up, turn on, tune in
the correct channel, and broadcast a radio call on a handheld radio?
When some rich asshole in a big yacht is about to run him over, I
guess.
No one on a 30 foot keel boat has the sheets in hand. The point of a
handheld radio is you can use it at the helm. If you can't, don't sail
single handed! There is also the "staying ahead of the boat" business.
This didn't happen at closing speeds of 100 mph. Roger was probably
doing all of 5 knots (500 yards every 6 minutes) and the other
boat.....who knows. Pick a max closing speed of 20 knots that is still
only 2 miles every 6 minutes. Lots of time to make a quick call on a
handy radio.

That is totally ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why don't you do a google search and look up some of Roger's previous
postings? He isn't exactly a rookie...
Designing boats doesn't necessarily mean a great shiphandler.
People who design airplanes aren't necessarily good pilots.


Capt. Bill wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 14:59:32 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Yeah, I could have called him on the radio but the rules of the road
were written to make it possible to deal with something this simple
without having to yack and negotiate on the air. Having to make a
radio call in a case like this means someone already isn't observing
the rules.

Let me get this straight, you didn't use the radio because you
shouldn't have to if some one is following the rules, but at the same
time you state they weren't following the rules and you still didn't
use the radio.

So at what point would you use your hand held radio? After they had
run you over to call for help?

Dangerous Maga-yacht in Maine
 

If you know the captain, what was his side of the story?

Cap'n Ric wrote:
I was at Dimillos Old Port Marina in Portland, Maine on the 13th, 14th and
15th of July on my way back to Baltimore, Maryland from Castine, Maine. The
FLORIDIAN was docked to the face pier while I was docked there. The boat is
actually 225 feet LOA and is owned by Wayne Huizenga, the owner of the Miami
Dolphins.

I know the Captain and I'm sure that he had someone at the helm during this
incident. I too have been the victim of large powerboats just missing me
when they have miles of open ocean to avoid me. I'm sure there are two
sides to this story.

Ric