90% of it is no more than 4 layers but it still needs the ability to handle
the corners of box cushions and things that need to be faced with a finished
seam on both sides like awning rails, heavy vinyl window material and some
zippers.

I have no plan to build a full set of sails but may tackle a riding sail and
maybe a storm jib. Also the machine should be able to handle a few repairs
in a pinch.

Mostly though I figure that if it can handle 6 or 7 layers of material with
ease it will hold together longer doing 4 layers on a regular basis.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Keith" wrote in message
ps.com...
What in the world are you guys making that requires sewing through six
layers of Sunbrella??? I think the max I've ever done was three.

In article qG1yg.975$ok5.848@dukeread01, says...


90% of it is no more than 4 layers but it still needs the ability to handle
the corners of box cushions and things that need to be faced with a finished
seam on both sides like awning rails, heavy vinyl window material and some
zippers.

I have no plan to build a full set of sails but may tackle a riding sail and
maybe a storm jib. Also the machine should be able to handle a few repairs
in a pinch.

Mostly though I figure that if it can handle 6 or 7 layers of material with
ease it will hold together longer doing 4 layers on a regular basis.


Good points. Our domestic machine succumbed to a sail cover.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
SWMBO will not let me close to her sewing machine so I am pretty
ignorant on the subject. I need a machine for making cockpit
cushions, canvas items around the boat and minor sail repairs. I
know I need zigzag, enough power to make it through 5 or 6 layers of
Sunbrella and maybe a walking foot but that's about it. Looked at
the Sailrite zigzag machines but they start at $600.

Packed up some Sunbrella scraps and stopped by the Singer store today
and pleaded ignorance. Asked about used machines but they didn't
have any that would do what I wanted but showed me a new CG-550. It
is an all metal "commercial" model which means they sell them to
schools and dry cleaners. It is not glamorous or fancy but it is
pretty heavily made. The lady put in a #18 needle (what ever that
is) loaded it with #92 thread and let me run 8 layers of Sunbrella
through it. Worked great. I could even get it slow enough for a
first timer to keep up with it pretty accurately. It also does 2
point and 4 point zigzag. (See I did learn something!)

I know this thing doesn't have that big honkin' power wheel like the
$800 Sailrite but it did what it was supposed to do, has a 25 year
warranty and only costs $250 plus another $30 for a walking foot .
Am I missing something?

Spent my whole working life in the rag trade. You need an industrial
machine. Heavy, built like a battleship, and usually with 3-phase motor.
Surely some manufacturer who is going bust must advertise in the trade press
as they usually auction off all the equipment. If you're in the States, New
York City is the place to look, the garment jungle area. Best zig-zags are
by Pfaff. Don't buy it unless a hefty supply of needles comes with it.
Ball-point for knitted fabric, diamond-point for wovens. Size 18 or 20 to do
really heavy work, 12-14 for spinnaker repairs. The people who make webbing
articles will have the right machine. Parachute factories, seatbelt
manufacturers, even sailmakers!


Dennis.

Unfortunately here in Georgia all the rag shops packed up and moved to
Central America or China years ago. Virtually no surplus industrial
machines left around here.

The Singer shop let me bring a demo 550 and a few #18 needles home for the
weekend to try out. Last night I made, or more correctly, butchered, a
small box cushion out of some Sunbrella and V-92 thread. To tell the truth,
anything more powerful would scare the hell out of me! :-)

The hardest part was closing up the last seam where it had to go through 5
layers of Sunbrella and some Velcro and it didn't seem to notice. I do see
that at very low speeds it has trouble starting through more than 5 layers.

I will still keep looking but this machine gives me an idea what is
available for little money that will do the job.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Dennis Pogson" wrote in message
...
Glenn Ashmore wrote:
SWMBO will not let me close to her sewing machine so I am pretty
ignorant on the subject. I need a machine for making cockpit
cushions, canvas items around the boat and minor sail repairs. I
know I need zigzag, enough power to make it through 5 or 6 layers of
Sunbrella and maybe a walking foot but that's about it. Looked at
the Sailrite zigzag machines but they start at $600.

Packed up some Sunbrella scraps and stopped by the Singer store today
and pleaded ignorance. Asked about used machines but they didn't
have any that would do what I wanted but showed me a new CG-550. It
is an all metal "commercial" model which means they sell them to
schools and dry cleaners. It is not glamorous or fancy but it is
pretty heavily made. The lady put in a #18 needle (what ever that
is) loaded it with #92 thread and let me run 8 layers of Sunbrella
through it. Worked great. I could even get it slow enough for a
first timer to keep up with it pretty accurately. It also does 2
point and 4 point zigzag. (See I did learn something!)

I know this thing doesn't have that big honkin' power wheel like the
$800 Sailrite but it did what it was supposed to do, has a 25 year
warranty and only costs $250 plus another $30 for a walking foot .
Am I missing something?

Spent my whole working life in the rag trade. You need an industrial
machine. Heavy, built like a battleship, and usually with 3-phase motor.
Surely some manufacturer who is going bust must advertise in the trade
press
as they usually auction off all the equipment. If you're in the States,
New
York City is the place to look, the garment jungle area. Best zig-zags are
by Pfaff. Don't buy it unless a hefty supply of needles comes with it.
Ball-point for knitted fabric, diamond-point for wovens. Size 18 or 20 to
do
really heavy work, 12-14 for spinnaker repairs. The people who make
webbing
articles will have the right machine. Parachute factories, seatbelt
manufacturers, even sailmakers!


Dennis.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Unfortunately here in Georgia all the rag shops packed up and moved to
Central America or China years ago. Virtually no surplus industrial
machines left around here.

The Singer shop let me bring a demo 550 and a few #18 needles home
for the weekend to try out. Last night I made, or more correctly,
butchered, a small box cushion out of some Sunbrella and V-92 thread.
To tell the truth, anything more powerful would scare the hell out of
me! :-)

The hardest part was closing up the last seam where it had to go
through 5 layers of Sunbrella and some Velcro and it didn't seem to
notice. I do see that at very low speeds it has trouble starting
through more than 5 layers.

Snip

The difference with industrial motors is that they are powerful enough not
to stall when using them to punch thru many plies of heavy fabric at slow
speeds, but such a motor would cost the earth and would be very heavy.

If the machine you are trying has a handwheel, (don't they all?), just help
the motor's torque by using your right hand. I know, you need 2 hands to
guide the fabric, but your left hand will soon get used to holding the stuff
under the needle, and always stop with the needle right thru the fabric so
that when you take away your right hand to turn the wheel the fabric plies
don't slip apart.

Industrial machines usually have Stopright motors which stop in the
needle-down position automatically to enable the operator to turn the fabric
with both hands.

Sounds like the 550 is your best bet, but how long will it take to recover
the cost, or does that not really matter?


Dennis.

Sounds like the 550 is your best bet, but how long will it take to recover
the cost, or does that not really matter?

Based on the quotes I have gotten from some canvas shops the payback is
about one cockpit cushion. :-) It appears that they make a good percentage
of their revenue from the fabric sale and I already have a 30 yard bolt of
Sunbrella. If this machine survives 6 cushions, the Bimini and a few hatch
and Dorade covers I will be in good shape.

The best news of the weekend however is that SHMBO after inspecting my
handiwork on the sample cushion cover took pity on me and volunteered to do
the sewing as long as it wasn't on her machine. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Sounds like the 550 is your best bet, but how long will it take to
recover the cost, or does that not really matter?

Based on the quotes I have gotten from some canvas shops the payback
is about one cockpit cushion. :-) It appears that they make a good
percentage of their revenue from the fabric sale and I already have a
30 yard bolt of Sunbrella. If this machine survives 6 cushions, the
Bimini and a few hatch and Dorade covers I will be in good shape.

The best news of the weekend however is that SHMBO after inspecting my
handiwork on the sample cushion cover took pity on me and volunteered
to do the sewing as long as it wasn't on her machine. :-)

You can't get a better deal than that!

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I need a machine for making cockpit cushions, canvas items
around the boat and minor sail repairs. I know I need zigzag, enough power
to make it through 5 or 6 layers of Sunbrella and maybe a walking foot but
that's about it.

Might be worth looking into an ancient home machine. I bought a used
all metal 1950-60s ziz-zag two speed no walking foot Viking-Husqvarna
21E home machine for $80 15 years ago for a cabin cushion project,
figuring if it blows up I'm still ahead of the game. It was over $1000
new in 1960 dollars. Many sail repair, canvas, flagmaking, camping gear
and clothing repair projects later the thing is still chugging along,
needing only light bulbs (hard to find) every five years or so.

Five or six layers of Sunbrella in low gear is doable, multiple cloth +
leather-foam-adhesive-plastic window type sewing requires "helping"
with the hand wheel, broken needles, swearing and lots of time but is
also doable. The key is the right "denim" or "ball point" type needle,
swedish are best, Singers suck.

The downsides:
- It's slow
- The stitch length and zig-zag width aren't as large as commercial
sail machine
- The small bobbin means you're endlessly refilling the bobbin on 30+
foot seams
- No walking foot means you're "helping" the cloth through on thick
stuff
- Thread tension controls weren't meant for big thread-thick cloth
jobs, touchy
- Small work surface means keeping things organized requires lots of
pins
- Small throat means creative stuffing on large things, middle of sails
being near impossible

Upsides:
- It's an $80 throw away
- Only 30 pounds or so
- Compact, easy to store
- Fairly low wattage, works fine on a 1000 watt inverter, because of
intermittant load
- No computerized crap or plastic, all mechanical, screwed together
fixable
- Has attachments that will do lots of non-manly sewing, double needle,
rolled, edge, flat felled seams, darning, buttons, fancy zig-zagging,
and I lot of stuff I don't understand. The ladies love it; I've had
SailRite equipped boats borrow mine so the better half can make, repair
and enhance delicate things.

Bought mine at a sewing machine repair store; Ebay might not be such a
good idea as you may get a clunker. Probably more than $80 now, but
the codger told me women turn in their 60's machines for the latest
feature laden Singer, even though the old machine still has a lot of
life in it and is a hell of a lot tougher.

P.S., sewing is a skill and there's a learning curve involved; I'm just
marginally competent and have a lot of respect for the experts. Some
things to key on a finished outside surface vs. inside surface,
lay, seam allowance, thread tension control and shrink. I still rip
out about 10% of my seams and redo because of goofups. Worst stab is
when you make a mirror image of the item you wanted to make, you know,
seams on the outside and such.

Mark wrote:
Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I need a machine for making cockpit cushions, canvas items
around the boat and minor sail repairs. I know I need zigzag,
enough power to make it through 5 or 6 layers of Sunbrella and maybe
a walking foot but that's about it.

Might be worth looking into an ancient home machine. I bought a used
all metal 1950-60s ziz-zag two speed no walking foot Viking-Husqvarna
21E home machine for $80 15 years ago for a cabin cushion project,
figuring if it blows up I'm still ahead of the game. It was over
$1000 new in 1960 dollars. Many sail repair, canvas, flagmaking,
camping gear and clothing repair projects later the thing is still
chugging along, needing only light bulbs (hard to find) every five
years or so.

Five or six layers of Sunbrella in low gear is doable, multiple cloth
+ leather-foam-adhesive-plastic window type sewing requires "helping"
with the hand wheel, broken needles, swearing and lots of time but is
also doable. The key is the right "denim" or "ball point" type
needle, swedish are best, Singers suck.

The downsides:
- It's slow
- The stitch length and zig-zag width aren't as large as commercial
sail machine
- The small bobbin means you're endlessly refilling the bobbin on 30+
foot seams
- No walking foot means you're "helping" the cloth through on thick
stuff
- Thread tension controls weren't meant for big thread-thick cloth
jobs, touchy
- Small work surface means keeping things organized requires lots of
pins
- Small throat means creative stuffing on large things, middle of
sails being near impossible

Upsides:
- It's an $80 throw away
- Only 30 pounds or so
- Compact, easy to store
- Fairly low wattage, works fine on a 1000 watt inverter, because of
intermittant load
- No computerized crap or plastic, all mechanical, screwed together
fixable
- Has attachments that will do lots of non-manly sewing, double
needle, rolled, edge, flat felled seams, darning, buttons, fancy
zig-zagging, and I lot of stuff I don't understand. The ladies love
it; I've had SailRite equipped boats borrow mine so the better half
can make, repair and enhance delicate things.

Bought mine at a sewing machine repair store; Ebay might not be such a
good idea as you may get a clunker. Probably more than $80 now, but
the codger told me women turn in their 60's machines for the latest
feature laden Singer, even though the old machine still has a lot of
life in it and is a hell of a lot tougher.

P.S., sewing is a skill and there's a learning curve involved; I'm
just marginally competent and have a lot of respect for the experts.
Some things to key on a finished outside surface vs. inside
surface, lay, seam allowance, thread tension control and shrink. I
still rip out about 10% of my seams and redo because of goofups.
Worst stab is when you make a mirror image of the item you wanted to
make, you know, seams on the outside and such.

Automobile factories use lots of sewing machines, and replace them
regularly, long before they are worn out.

You need to find somone who knows someone who knows someone
else.......................

Dennis.

Dennis Pogson wrote:
Mark wrote:

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

I need a machine for making cockpit cushions, canvas items
around the boat and minor sail repairs. I know I need zigzag,
enough power to make it through 5 or 6 layers of Sunbrella and maybe
a walking foot but that's about it.

Might be worth looking into an ancient home machine. I bought a used
all metal 1950-60s ziz-zag two speed no walking foot Viking-Husqvarna
21E home machine for $80 15 years ago for a cabin cushion project,
figuring if it blows up I'm still ahead of the game. It was over
$1000 new in 1960 dollars. Many sail repair, canvas, flagmaking,
camping gear and clothing repair projects later the thing is still
chugging along, needing only light bulbs (hard to find) every five
years or so.

Five or six layers of Sunbrella in low gear is doable, multiple cloth
+ leather-foam-adhesive-plastic window type sewing requires "helping"
with the hand wheel, broken needles, swearing and lots of time but is
also doable. The key is the right "denim" or "ball point" type
needle, swedish are best, Singers suck.

The downsides:
- It's slow
- The stitch length and zig-zag width aren't as large as commercial
sail machine
- The small bobbin means you're endlessly refilling the bobbin on 30+
foot seams
- No walking foot means you're "helping" the cloth through on thick
stuff
- Thread tension controls weren't meant for big thread-thick cloth
jobs, touchy
- Small work surface means keeping things organized requires lots of
pins
- Small throat means creative stuffing on large things, middle of
sails being near impossible

Upsides:
- It's an $80 throw away
- Only 30 pounds or so
- Compact, easy to store
- Fairly low wattage, works fine on a 1000 watt inverter, because of
intermittant load
- No computerized crap or plastic, all mechanical, screwed together
fixable
- Has attachments that will do lots of non-manly sewing, double
needle, rolled, edge, flat felled seams, darning, buttons, fancy
zig-zagging, and I lot of stuff I don't understand. The ladies love
it; I've had SailRite equipped boats borrow mine so the better half
can make, repair and enhance delicate things.

Bought mine at a sewing machine repair store; Ebay might not be such a
good idea as you may get a clunker. Probably more than $80 now, but
the codger told me women turn in their 60's machines for the latest
feature laden Singer, even though the old machine still has a lot of
life in it and is a hell of a lot tougher.

P.S., sewing is a skill and there's a learning curve involved; I'm
just marginally competent and have a lot of respect for the experts.
Some things to key on a finished outside surface vs. inside
surface, lay, seam allowance, thread tension control and shrink. I
still rip out about 10% of my seams and redo because of goofups.
Worst stab is when you make a mirror image of the item you wanted to
make, you know, seams on the outside and such.


Automobile factories use lots of sewing machines, and replace them
regularly, long before they are worn out.

You need to find somone who knows someone who knows someone
else.......................

Dennis.



If you could work your way through the 'six degrees of separation' that
supposedly link everyone.. you'd find your connection.