Ferry encounter
 

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 23:37:16 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels
change when they became official terrorist targets under the
protection of homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty
and increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is
a large anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to
guide the largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It
isn't a channel in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the
center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below
cleaning and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was
proceeding down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The
ferry was going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change.
There was plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them
astern and I really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head
in the pilot house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up
which took some finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down
and began to lose rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a
lot like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us
intently without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on
the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and
unobstructed water, I found myself wondering if she could really think
that the rule about vessels in a channel and constrained by their
draft really applied to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some
more dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just
coming up to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would
have avoided any possibility of contact. This was quite out of
character for the outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?

I can only think of three possibilities:

1) the ferry was using rule 9 of colregs.

2) a traffic seprartion zone is in effect (a chart would show that)

3) harbour regulations (would need to see them)

On the first and last one cited, I agree. On the traffic separation zone, I
don't think it would make a difference. Just because someone is using the
correct lane for their course, doesn't give them license to ignore the other
rules.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Ferry encounter
 

Roger Long wrote:
Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels
change when they became official terrorist targets under the
protection of homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty
and increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is
a large anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to
guide the largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It
isn't a channel in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the
center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below
cleaning and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was
proceeding down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The
ferry was going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change.
There was plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them
astern and I really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head
in the pilot house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up
which took some finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down
and began to lose rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a
lot like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us
intently without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on
the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and
unobstructed water, I found myself wondering if she could really think
that the rule about vessels in a channel and constrained by their
draft really applied to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some
more dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just
coming up to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would
have avoided any possibility of contact. This was quite out of
character for the outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?

At least it was a lesser encounter than that which we experienced in May of
this year, with one of Her Majesty's Trident submarines, which despatched an
MOD outrider, an insolent bugger who lost no time in telling us to get out
of the sub's way, despite the fact that we had already tacked and were
heading directly away from said sub!

My post on this matter to uk.rec.sailing invoked a huge response, most of
which was directed at the Royal Navy's submarine service for their insolence
and intransigence, although a few ex-submariners did side with the sub's
captain.

I should add that we were in open water, with lots of room to manouever, no
"constrained by draft" channels, and took avoiding action almost as soon as
the sub hove into sight.

It would seem that might is right!

Dennis.

Ferry encounter
 

I pretty much agree with you and Tom in the other reply when it comes
to the large ferries on shuttle routes. I generally give a them a
clear and obvious course change well in advance even when they are the
stand on vessel. If they altered course for every sailboat in the
harbor, it would be chaos.

However, not the 65 feet in the original post. This is one of the
little boats that does excursions and services the outer islands.
Despite being nearly as wide as it is long and two decks high, it is
just a little and very maneuverable boat. There were no other boats
nearby, she was at half speed so schedule was clearly not an issue,
and two spokes of the wheel would have avoided a lot of work and
disruption below for me. No way she could have known the later part
but she could see that I was alone on deck and it was blowing hard.

By the time it was clear that she wasn't giving an inch, the rule for
the stand on vessel to maintain a predictable course was also coming
into play. If I'd tried to bear off under her just as she decided to
go behind me, I wouldn't have been able to avoid her. Even a tack
could have been dicey if she had made a last minute correction. She
proceeded exactly as if she had the right of way.

The best possibility I can think of, other than sheer arrogance or
total ignorance of the surrounding water depths, is that she thought I
had my engine running and was therefore a powerboat which would have
made us burdened. A lot of people start running their engines around
here when it starts to get as gnarly as it was working up to at the
time.

--

Roger Long

Ferry encounter
 

"Jack Dale" wrote

I can only think of three possibilities:

1) the ferry was using rule 9 of colregs.

Here is the chart with the ferry (excursion boat would be a more
accurate description in this case although it is operated by a ferry
line) shown in red and our course in black. I just read rule 9 and I
would be curious if anyone would think that it applies to a 6 foot
draft vessel near high tide in this case.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Encounter.jpg


2) a traffic seprartion zone is in effect (a chart would show that)

Not applicable.

3) harbour regulations (would need to see them)

We were outside the harbor.

--

Roger Long

Ferry encounter
 

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

There was a German warship coming in the river, and we could hear the
very southern pilot on the radio warning sailboats in the ICW. I saw
the superstructure of the ship (mostly the mast part) through the
trees, but did not immediately recognize it as a ship - I thought it
was just some funny kind of tree. There was another sailboat ahead of
us, and I thought the pilot was talking to them. He could only see
our mast, so he couldn't tell that the boat ahead of us was a
catamaran. [When I called Bob's attention to the funny 'tree', he did
recognize it as a ship.]

But when we came out into the river, we saw the warship a very short
distance away, and consequently we put on the power to get out of his
way and onto the other side of the channel.



What a fantastic example for the use of AIS if both boat and ship were so
equipped. You and he would have been plotting each other for 10 miles so
better synchronization between you would have avoided any conflict. He
would have been able to call you BY YOUR NAME AND CALL, not just "sailboat
with a mast sticking up". You would have known, not only something was
there long before you could see it but WHAT is was and WHO it was and his
speed and course for planning purposes.....

The sooner every boat is on AIS, the better for everyone.....

Ferry encounter
 

On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 00:23:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



On the first and last one cited, I agree. On the traffic separation zone, I
don't think it would make a difference. Just because someone is using the
correct lane for their course, doesn't give them license to ignore the other
rules.


That could depend on the application of Rule 10 (j)

(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a
traffic lane.

This would not apply as Roger's chart does not show a TSZ.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

Ferry encounter
 

Having sailed the Great Lakes for some 60 years I have had ample
experience with the solid stream of freighters... They don't turn,
period... Usually there is not even anyone visible in the bridge
windows...
I long ago developed the attitude that I will immediately turn away as
soon as I see a converging track developing... I am not burning
hundreds of dollars an hour of fuel... I can turn on a dime... I like
tacking... I am sailing for pleasure... Being ground up underneath a
400 foot cement hauler is not my idea of pleasure...
And, likely the person on the bridge (if any) does not speak english
and doesn't particularily like 'rich', 'ugly americans'... Just a fact
of life for a yachtsman... Just because you think the Colregs say you
don't have to turn, doesn't mean you shouldn't...
If I were pulling a fish net or dredging, I would ignore the big guy
and let him make the quivering explanations in the Admiralty Court as
to why he ran someone down... I'm not, so I give way...

denny

Ferry encounter
 

That's pretty much my attitude but this "ferry" was smaller and as
maneuverable as a lot of the power yachts in the marinas. Just
having the paint and logo of the larger boats in the fleet doesn't
change the physics. Having just tacked a 32 foot boat alone few
minutes earlier and gotten settled down at the end of a long day with
the weather going downhill fast, I was sort of in the net towing
category you describe.

--

Roger Long



"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Having sailed the Great Lakes for some 60 years I have had ample
experience with the solid stream of freighters... They don't turn,
period... Usually there is not even anyone visible in the bridge
windows...
I long ago developed the attitude that I will immediately turn away
as
soon as I see a converging track developing... I am not burning
hundreds of dollars an hour of fuel... I can turn on a dime... I
like
tacking... I am sailing for pleasure... Being ground up underneath a
400 foot cement hauler is not my idea of pleasure...
And, likely the person on the bridge (if any) does not speak english
and doesn't particularily like 'rich', 'ugly americans'... Just a
fact
of life for a yachtsman... Just because you think the Colregs say
you
don't have to turn, doesn't mean you shouldn't...
If I were pulling a fish net or dredging, I would ignore the big guy
and let him make the quivering explanations in the Admiralty Court
as
to why he ran someone down... I'm not, so I give way...

denny

Ferry encounter
 

For the conditions you are discussing, there have been no changes (BTW
"commercial vessels" is not a class of vessel under the Rules).
The reasons for the ferry's actions could involve a number of possibilities
but none would hold up in court, so I think I'd just put it down to one of
those meeting situations we all come across that confirm the need to be
ready to act on our own, be we "give way" or "standon".
One point....... not being able to see someone in a wheelhouse from your
perspective, does not necessarily mean they are not there.
Much depends on the layout, location of the helmstation, etc. . Personally,
I treat all vessels as if no one is in control.

otn

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Say, did the right of way rules for commercial passenger vessels change
when they became official terrorist targets under the protection of
homeland security?

The ferry crews in this part of the world have always seemed very
competent and courteous to me and I've had a number of professional
dealings with them. We were finishing up a day sail today in shifty and
increasing winds that shortly after turned into a squall. There is a large
anchorage that has a pair of red and greens in it that used to guide the
largest vessels up to a long abandoned navy oil depot. It isn't a channel
in the normal sense but marks the deepest area in the center.

We were close hauled and I was alone on deck with everyone below cleaning
and straightening up. One of the little 65 foot ferries was proceeding
down the bay through the buoys as if it were a channel. The ferry was
going slowly, we were converging, the bearing didn't change. There was
plenty of room for a minor correction that would take them astern and I
really didn't want to tack. I started looking for a head in the pilot
house and couldn't see any faces so I finally luffed up which took some
finessing in the shifty conditions as we slowed down and began to lose
rudder authority.

The ferry passed about 50 feet in front of us and a lady who looked a lot
like she might be the captain stuck her head out and studied us intently
without waving as if she was trying to read the numbers on the bow.

As I sailed on over the next half mile of 20 + foot deep and unobstructed
water, I found myself wondering if she could really think that the rule
about vessels in a channel and constrained by their draft really applied
to her.

No question that we would have hit if I hadn't luffed or taken some more
dramatic action. She proceeded like she was on autopilot. Just coming up
to normal speed or a 10 degree course change early on would have avoided
any possibility of contact. This was quite out of character for the
outfit. I wonder what she was thinking?


--

Roger Long

Ferry encounter
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message news:

Here is the chart with the ferry (excursion boat would be a more
accurate description in this case although it is operated by a ferry
line) shown in red and our course in black. I just read rule 9 and I
would be curious if anyone would think that it applies to a 6 foot
draft vessel near high tide in this case.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Encounter.jpg


Roger,

From your chart, he/she was definitely following a marked channel. However,
with that draft they were in no way restricted to the channel.
1. Some boaters and especially ferry operators following a normal route,
tend to be "anal" about staying in the channel or along their prescribed
route.

2. Looking at your arrows for your and the other vessels headings, I can see
a possible view that could lead to a misread of your intentions from the
ferry's view..... i.e. that you would soon come left to continue down the
channel.

3. Once again, there are so many possibilities for their
action...............

otn