On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 22:11:56 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

The next morning it was checked on an airline to
St. Thomas where it was lost for 3 days somewhere between Atlanta and Ft.
Lauderdale. The cooler was delivered to West End, Tortola and unpacked on
June 3 about 1 PM and everything was still frozen solid.

===========

That 's impressive.

Where do you get the Technice?

I found the best price on ebay. There is a guy on there that sells it.
Apparently pretty reliable because I have suggested him to several people,
all of whom have been very happy with his shipping. The proper term is
"Techni Ice" . In my testing the Techni ice only lasted about 30% longer
than water ice but the temperature averaged about 15F lower. Frozen to 0F
it absorbs about 152 BTU's per pound compared to 176 BTU per pound of water
ice but water ice only absorbs 1 BTU per pound until it gets to 32F and
starts to melt. The gel in Techni Ice starts melting at a lot lower
temperature and is pretty well all melted by the time it reaches 32F.
Apparently it also will absorb more than 1BTU/pound when it is frozen to
very low temperatures although I don't fully understand the physics yet.

The other part of the performance is the Coleman Ultimate Extreme cooler.
It is exactly 1" under the maximum size you can check on an airline and is
about the best insulated mass produced cooler on the market. The "marine"
version cost about $10 more than the regular model but the only real
difference is that it is all white and has an extra set of rope handles
which can handle the rough treatment of baggage handlers. The 50 quart
wheeled model that Wal-Mart carries is nothing like as good.


I keep 5 or 6 sheets in the freezer and just turn the freezer side down to
the lowest setting about 4 days before a trip. All the food goes in Ziploc
bags in the freezer for 3 or 4 days to get it as cold as possible and I pack
the cooler completely full. A towel on the bottom adds a little insulation
to the coldest area and any voids are filled with towels, extra bathing
suits, etc.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 22:11:56 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

The next morning it was checked on an airline to
St. Thomas where it was lost for 3 days somewhere between Atlanta and Ft.
Lauderdale. The cooler was delivered to West End, Tortola and unpacked on
June 3 about 1 PM and everything was still frozen solid.

===========

That 's impressive.

Where do you get the Technice?

Glenn - Water ice only holds .5 (or less) BTU/lb-degree, so cooling it
down to zero is only adding another 15 BTU per pound for a total of
159 BTU.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I found the best price on ebay. There is a guy on there that sells it.
Apparently pretty reliable because I have suggested him to several people,
all of whom have been very happy with his shipping. The proper term is
"Techni Ice" . In my testing the Techni ice only lasted about 30% longer
than water ice but the temperature averaged about 15F lower. Frozen to 0F
it absorbs about 152 BTU's per pound compared to 176 BTU per pound of water
ice but water ice only absorbs 1 BTU per pound until it gets to 32F and
starts to melt. The gel in Techni Ice starts melting at a lot lower
temperature and is pretty well all melted by the time it reaches 32F.
Apparently it also will absorb more than 1BTU/pound when it is frozen to
very low temperatures although I don't fully understand the physics yet.

The other part of the performance is the Coleman Ultimate Extreme cooler.
It is exactly 1" under the maximum size you can check on an airline and is
about the best insulated mass produced cooler on the market. The "marine"
version cost about $10 more than the regular model but the only real
difference is that it is all white and has an extra set of rope handles
which can handle the rough treatment of baggage handlers. The 50 quart
wheeled model that Wal-Mart carries is nothing like as good.


I keep 5 or 6 sheets in the freezer and just turn the freezer side down to
the lowest setting about 4 days before a trip. All the food goes in Ziploc
bags in the freezer for 3 or 4 days to get it as cold as possible and I pack
the cooler completely full. A towel on the bottom adds a little insulation
to the coldest area and any voids are filled with towels, extra bathing
suits, etc.

Lets look at the safety of both suggestions.

1) Nitrogen liquid will boil to gas. The gas is an asphyxiate. Many people
have died from nitrogen. Air contains 21.5% O2 mostly the rest is N2. If
you breath pure N2 the first breath you pass out and the second breath brain
damage and the third death. Think about passing out when reaching for
something in the ice chest. If you fall in your dead; if you fall out you
will probably be ok. The next day you will be ripping out your N2 system.
A closed boat can accumulate N2 which will displace air. Maybe get you in
your sleep or when you go down for a cold one.

2) CO2 is heaver then air and would accumulate in the low parts of the boat.
Same issue as with N2 but it would at least give you some warning signs.

Whats wrong with a little water from melting ice. You are on a boat
right???





"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Glenn - Water ice only holds .5 (or less) BTU/lb-degree, so cooling it
down to zero is only adding another 15 BTU per pound for a total of 159
BTU.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I found the best price on ebay. There is a guy on there that sells it.
Apparently pretty reliable because I have suggested him to several
people, all of whom have been very happy with his shipping. The proper
term is "Techni Ice" . In my testing the Techni ice only lasted about
30% longer than water ice but the temperature averaged about 15F lower.
Frozen to 0F it absorbs about 152 BTU's per pound compared to 176 BTU per
pound of water ice but water ice only absorbs 1 BTU per pound until it
gets to 32F and starts to melt. The gel in Techni Ice starts melting at
a lot lower temperature and is pretty well all melted by the time it
reaches 32F. Apparently it also will absorb more than 1BTU/pound when it
is frozen to very low temperatures although I don't fully understand the
physics yet.

The other part of the performance is the Coleman Ultimate Extreme cooler.
It is exactly 1" under the maximum size you can check on an airline and
is about the best insulated mass produced cooler on the market. The
"marine" version cost about $10 more than the regular model but the only
real difference is that it is all white and has an extra set of rope
handles which can handle the rough treatment of baggage handlers. The 50
quart wheeled model that Wal-Mart carries is nothing like as good.


I keep 5 or 6 sheets in the freezer and just turn the freezer side down
to the lowest setting about 4 days before a trip. All the food goes in
Ziploc bags in the freezer for 3 or 4 days to get it as cold as possible
and I pack the cooler completely full. A towel on the bottom adds a
little insulation to the coldest area and any voids are filled with
towels, extra bathing suits, etc.

OK, let's look at the fallacies of both your scenarios:

Rick wrote:
Lets look at the safety of both suggestions.

1) Nitrogen liquid will boil to gas. The gas is an asphyxiate. Many people
have died from nitrogen. Air contains 21.5% O2 mostly the rest is N2. If
you breath pure N2 the first breath you pass out and the second breath brain
damage and the third death.

GROSS exaggeration. This assumes you purge *all* the lung volume with
each breath (when it's typically only about 30% or less) and that there
are no O2 reserves in circulating hemoglobin or stored myoglobin.
Neither is the case. It also assumes (at 12-15 breaths per minute) that
brain damage occurs in 10-15 seconds. Right.

Think about passing out when reaching for
something in the ice chest. If you fall in your dead; if you fall out you
will probably be ok. The next day you will be ripping out your N2 system.
A closed boat can accumulate N2 which will displace air.

N2 evaporation does not *displace* air, it dilutes the O2 concentration.
For a sleeping individual, oxygen concentration does not become
dangerous until it reaches about 10%. That means you'd need to
evaporate sufficient N2 to equal the volume inside the boat, and you'd
have to do it without ventilation. Not very likely. My boat doesn't
hold 30 PSIA, does yours?

Maybe get you in
your sleep or when you go down for a cold one.

2) CO2 is heaver then air and would accumulate in the low parts of the boat.
Same issue as with N2 but it would at least give you some warning signs.

It gives exactly the same warning signs as N2. No more, no less. You'd
require the same volume of subliming CO2 as evaporating N2 to cause O2
deprivation issues.

Bottom line, you must have ventilation in any sleeping environment. You
exhale CO2, you'll recall, so you'll die in a sealed box or without
subliming CO2 or evaporating N2. That's just common sense.

Whats wrong with a little water from melting ice. You are on a boat
right???

I don't use CO2 in my boat, but I've been using it for years in my
Vanagons' Dometic NH3 "refrigerator", and it's posed no problems. I put
in about 2 lbs which lasts about 3 days. 2 lbs sublimes to about 510
liters, in a van with an interior volume of approx. 6800L. When you do
the math, that results in a total O2 dilution of 7.5%, or a final O2
concentration of 19.9% which is well above OSHA's TEEL limit of 19.5%
for a confined space entry. This again assumes that no ventilation
occurred over the 3 days.

When you do the math, it just isn't a problem when using any reasonable
amounts, and with only normal ventilation (which should *always* be
ensured under *any* use conditions).

Keith Hughes

Hey it sounds like we got a volunteer.

I personally know of 2 deaths due to folks breathing N2. Thats pure N2.

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...
OK, let's look at the fallacies of both your scenarios:

Rick wrote:
Lets look at the safety of both suggestions.

1) Nitrogen liquid will boil to gas. The gas is an asphyxiate. Many
people have died from nitrogen. Air contains 21.5% O2 mostly the rest is
N2. If you breath pure N2 the first breath you pass out and the second
breath brain damage and the third death.

GROSS exaggeration. This assumes you purge *all* the lung volume with
each breath (when it's typically only about 30% or less) and that there
are no O2 reserves in circulating hemoglobin or stored myoglobin. Neither
is the case. It also assumes (at 12-15 breaths per minute) that brain
damage occurs in 10-15 seconds. Right.

Think about passing out when reaching for something in the ice chest. If
you fall in your dead; if you fall out you will probably be ok. The next
day you will be ripping out your N2 system. A closed boat can accumulate
N2 which will displace air.

N2 evaporation does not *displace* air, it dilutes the O2 concentration.
For a sleeping individual, oxygen concentration does not become dangerous
until it reaches about 10%. That means you'd need to evaporate sufficient
N2 to equal the volume inside the boat, and you'd have to do it without
ventilation. Not very likely. My boat doesn't hold 30 PSIA, does yours?

Maybe get you in your sleep or when you go down for a cold one.

2) CO2 is heaver then air and would accumulate in the low parts of the
boat. Same issue as with N2 but it would at least give you some warning
signs.

It gives exactly the same warning signs as N2. No more, no less. You'd
require the same volume of subliming CO2 as evaporating N2 to cause O2
deprivation issues.

Bottom line, you must have ventilation in any sleeping environment. You
exhale CO2, you'll recall, so you'll die in a sealed box or without
subliming CO2 or evaporating N2. That's just common sense.

Whats wrong with a little water from melting ice. You are on a boat
right???

I don't use CO2 in my boat, but I've been using it for years in my
Vanagons' Dometic NH3 "refrigerator", and it's posed no problems. I put
in about 2 lbs which lasts about 3 days. 2 lbs sublimes to about 510
liters, in a van with an interior volume of approx. 6800L. When you do
the math, that results in a total O2 dilution of 7.5%, or a final O2
concentration of 19.9% which is well above OSHA's TEEL limit of 19.5% for
a confined space entry. This again assumes that no ventilation occurred
over the 3 days.

When you do the math, it just isn't a problem when using any reasonable
amounts, and with only normal ventilation (which should *always* be
ensured under *any* use conditions).

Keith Hughes

So where did these folks find that pure N2? Sure not
in the bilge of a boat, because it mixes into the air
readily. It does not 'displace air'.
And yes, any gas mix without oxygen will kill you
if breathed from a bottle for a few minutes. That
doesn't have to do anything with fridges.


Rick wrote:
Hey it sounds like we got a volunteer.

I personally know of 2 deaths due to folks breathing N2. Thats pure N2.

As I said, I do it in my Vanagon all the time and, last I checked, I'm
not dead. Anyone who will travel, sleep, or play bingo in a sealed
container is just a contaminant in the gene pool.

Rick wrote:
Hey it sounds like we got a volunteer.

I personally know of 2 deaths due to folks breathing N2. Thats pure N2.

And what, pray tell, were these geniuses doing breathing pure N2? I
personally know of 4 individuals who died breathing N2O. They
were...uhm...what was that word? Stupid. Pressurized gas, sealed
environment, stupid. You'll note that in none of the scenarios
presented was anyone exposed to any prolonged exposure to "pure N2". Do
the math, it's not rocket science.

Please, feel free to demonstrate how any reasonable amount of CO2 or N2
can sublime or evaporate into an average size boat, **in the typical
amount of time required**, to result in a dangerous environment. Note
we are *not* talking about something like CO, which preferentially binds
with hemoglobin relative to O2, and thus presents a very real hazard.

Keith Hughes

Keith Hughes writes:

When you do the math, it just isn't a problem when using any reasonable
amounts, and with only normal ventilation (which should *always* be
ensured under *any* use conditions).

Quite so.

A restaurant soda fountain typically has multiple 20 lb CO2 tanks sitting
around. If these were to leak out rapidly from a burst hose, which happens
frequently, there is no hazard to personnel.

A 20 lb CO2 fire extinguisher discharged indoors does not present an
asphyxiation hazard.

On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:12:44 -0500, "Rick"
wrote:

Lets look at the safety of both suggestions.

1) Nitrogen liquid will boil to gas. The gas is an asphyxiate. Many people
have died from nitrogen. Air contains 21.5% O2 mostly the rest is N2. If
you breath pure N2 the first breath you pass out and the second breath brain
damage and the third death. Think about passing out when reaching for
something in the ice chest. If you fall in your dead; if you fall out you
will probably be ok. The next day you will be ripping out your N2 system.
A closed boat can accumulate N2 which will displace air. Maybe get you in
your sleep or when you go down for a cold one.

2) CO2 is heaver then air and would accumulate in the low parts of the boat.
Same issue as with N2 but it would at least give you some warning signs.

Whats wrong with a little water from melting ice. You are on a boat
right???


Nitrogen displaces oxygen, so you pass out without warning. It is not
otherwise toxic. So figure being underwater for a few seconds. That's
as much time as you have with N2. With CO2 you pant.
Both gases diffuse of course.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK