I am not advocating any particular anchor, I thought the footage of
this test maybe of interest.

I do believe that any anchors performance can be enhanced with the use
of a kellet or Anchor Catenary.

Mic, please tell us something about you recent anchoring experiences,
e.g., type of boat you own, type of anchor/rode, bottom conditions,
weather, etc.

wrote:

I am not advocating any particular anchor, I thought the footage of
this test maybe of interest.


I do believe that any anchors performance can be enhanced with the use
of a kellet or Anchor Catenary.


Mic, please tell us something about you recent anchoring experiences,
e.g., type of boat you own, type of anchor/rode, bottom conditions,
weather, etc.

Knowledge is not made more true or false based upon the experience of
the person who holds it. For one thing, the person could have gotten the
knowledge from a very experienced person (as much of the links Mic posts
clearly are), for another, experience doesn't prevent anyone from being
wrong about anything, for another, theories should be judged upon their
adherence to the canons of rationality, not upon who they come from.


--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Knowledge is not made more true or false based upon the experience of
the person who holds it.

I respectfully disagree. Knowledge without experience is untested as
witnessed by the statement regarding kellets. Kellets can be useful
for reducing swing radius in a crowded anchorage under moderate
conditions, but do very little to enhance ultimate holding power of an
anchor, any anchor. The reason, as an experienced person would know,
is that the anchor rode, rope or chain, with or without kellet, will be
pulled nearly taut under heavy load.

wrote:
Knowledge is not made more true or false based upon the experience of
the person who holds it.


I respectfully disagree. Knowledge without experience is untested as
witnessed by the statement regarding kellets.

Can't an inexperienced person get knowledge from experienced people?

Kellets can be useful
for reducing swing radius in a crowded anchorage under moderate
conditions, but do very little to enhance ultimate holding power of an
anchor, any anchor. The reason, as an experienced person would know,
is that the anchor rode, rope or chain, with or without kellet, will be
pulled nearly taut under heavy load.

So if I believe this, don't I have the knowledge of an experienced
person about it?



--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

So if I believe this, don't I have the knowledge of an experienced
person about it?

Yes you have the knowledge but without experience to evaluate it, that
is the issue that I have with inexperienced people passing along second
hand "knowledge" as "fact".

I have the experience to know that a kellet will not increase ultimate
holding power of an anchor, nor will it significantly decrease shock
loads under the conditions where it is important. I know from
experience that even a 3/8 chain rode will be pulled bar taut with
approximately 1200 lbs of pull on it. Once the rode is bar taut, a
kellet is worthless. A kellet is useful for reducing swing radius in
light to moderate conditions. Period.

wrote:
So if I believe this, don't I have the knowledge of an experienced

person about it?

Yes you have the knowledge but without experience to evaluate it, that
is the issue that I have with inexperienced people passing along second
hand "knowledge" as "fact".

I have the experience to know that a kellet will not increase ultimate
holding power of an anchor, nor will it significantly decrease shock
loads under the conditions where it is important. I know from
experience that even a 3/8 chain rode will be pulled bar taut with
approximately 1200 lbs of pull on it. Once the rode is bar taut, a
kellet is worthless. A kellet is useful for reducing swing radius in
light to moderate conditions. Period.

In order for your experience to prove that, wouldn't you have had to use
all possible combinations of anchors, rodes and kellets? If you haven't
used all possible combinations, then you're not drawing the conclusion
about all kellets based upon experience, you are drawing the conclusion
the same way an inexperienced person draws conclusions: by evaluating
the facts and arguments involved.

For example, maybe you don't have the experience of actually using a
kellet with a danforth anchor, but you know that the danforth has almost
identical properties to an anchor you do know about, so you project your
conclusion to danforth anchors even though you don't have direct experience.

Using this same method, people without experience X can be as right and
knowledgeable as people with experience X. You see what I'm saying? I
don't disrespect your experience, surely experience helps people gain
vast amounts of knowledge, but it's not the only way to gain knowledge,
thank goodness, or none of us would know very much.

--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Stephen, the type of anchor has no impact on the effectiveness of a
fully loaded rode with a kellet. Why? Think about how a kellet works.
A kellet artificially increases the catenary of a partially loaded
rode. That can be useful to decrease swing radius in light to moderate
conditions. It may also assist with setting an anchor on scope too
short for conditions.
All well and good until the wind starts to blow, the rode loads up and
pulls taut, and now the low angle achieved by the initial use of the
kellet returns to the higher angle associated with short scope. At
exactly the time you need maximum effectiveness from your anchor, the
rode is puled bar taut, returning your swing radius to its normal
dimension, and decreasing the effective holding power of your anchor.
A kellet can be useful in certain specific circumstances but to claim
universal effectiveness is foolhardy. When the wind starts to blow I
like to know that my anchor was properly set on the correct scope for
conditions, not set in a way that partially compensates for short
scope. Here's the proof: Have you ever heard of a large commercial
ship or a naval ship relying on a kellet to anchor? Of course not.
How would you like to be in front of a board of inquiry or Court
Martial proceeding explaining why you entrusted your ship to short
scope because you used a kellet on Mic's recommendation.

On Sat, 27 May 2006 21:05:46 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

wrote:

I am not advocating any particular anchor, I thought the footage of
this test maybe of interest.


I do believe that any anchors performance can be enhanced with the use
of a kellet or Anchor Catenary.
A kellet serves more than one purpose:
#
Increase anchoring security and reduce the risk of the anchor dragging
by changing the angle of pull on the anchor to help it dig in
#
Reduce boat swing by up to 50%
They almost double the holding power of the anchor and reduce the
working load of the anchor by up to 50%.
"Having a lot of sag in the rode reduces shock loads and helps keep
the anchor dug in by reducing the angle between the rode and anchor.
The best you can do is an angle of "zero", which exists when the
anchor rode is flat on the bottom, and all the pulling forces are
horizontal. As tension increases, it reaches a point where the weight
of the rode is overcome, and the angle becomes positive. Positive
angles make the anchor work harder at keeping set, since the rode is
now pulling up on the anchor. If the tension continues to increase,
the catenary reduces to a straight line, and eventually the anchor
pulls out."

It is clear that some people respond to these informational posts from
links that havent read the material much less understood it.



Mic, please tell us something about you recent anchoring experiences,
e.g., type of boat you own, type of anchor/rode, bottom conditions,
weather, etc.

Knowledge is not made more true or false based upon the experience of
the person who holds it. For one thing, the person could have gotten the
knowledge from a very experienced person (as much of the links Mic posts
clearly are), for another, experience doesn't prevent anyone from being
wrong about anything, for another, theories should be judged upon their
adherence to the canons of rationality, not upon who they come from.

Well said and understood.

Heres and interesting thought.

2 lawyers in a civil matter both have the same number of years
experience, no agreement on the statue can be made. What percentage
does each lawyer have of being correct as decided by the court? 50-50
right? Or less than 50% chance of being right but still the same %
chance of being right accorded to each lawyer? If you have any
experience then you should have the answer;

I would say that for the most part I would concur with that which is
in many of the sailing informational links. Or provide the links as
something new or different, as it appears that these interests are in
common with others, with an exception it seems. Thats OK.



--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos