Well, as another thread has reflected, I finally finished my PVC
outflow installation on the forward head.

This is a Raritan PHII, recently rebuilt and, just before installation,
regreased with teflon grease, so I have excellent confidence in the
pump.

It also has a recently serviced air intake valve, which I tested in the
course of the test below. It performs properly.

Because I haven't yet obtained (later today) the intake hoses, I just
filled the bowl from the shower hose. Moving the selector to "dry" I
pumped it out.

Everything went just fine. Until, after I quit more than a dozen
strokes after the noise indicated the last of the water had been
removed from the pipe under the stool (the flapper opening on intake,
then closing on pump), I heard the water cascade back down into the
area of the joker.

Based on several threads, both recent and long ago, I had *thought*
(after an annoyingly high number of confirmation questions in a
long-ago thread, because my [limited] physics understanding refused to
believe it) that you could dry pump all the liquid out of the standing
part of the vented loop. That thrilled my engineer-ish nature because I
could leave everything except the waterline level of seawater dry each
time, if I just took the time to dry pump each flush. Despite my
having, now, PVC, which should never smell, I like the thought that my
lines would remain dry and un-encumbered by scale. Back to the dry-out
process...

Evidently I'm doing something wrong, because it doesn't. Trying it
"wet" (not wet because I don't have the lines, and I'm not in the water
if I had) didn't make any difference. Pumping wildlly (perhaps 2-300
strokes per minute rate) didn't change matters.

I still assume I'll be able to push everything out of the pipe below,
as, once the fall has occurred, and the anti-syphon has let in the air
to take up the space, the next stroke should pressurize it, leading to
the air bubble going all the way to the through hull. Our marker for
success will be to have the t/h bubble (I'm sure there is a quantified
number of strokes that this will take, and we'll have to wait until
we're in the water to determine that number), and will become our
standard for final flushes.

However, I can't get rid of the standing water. What am I doing wrong
(or, is there an equipment problem?) such that I can't pump the
standing water out?


L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,
messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Because I haven't yet obtained (later today) the intake hoses, I just
filled the bowl from the shower hose. Moving the selector to "dry" I
pumped it out.

Everything went just fine. Until, after I quit more than a dozen
strokes after the noise indicated the last of the water had been
removed from the pipe under the stool (the flapper opening on intake,
then closing on pump), I heard the water cascade back down into the
area of the joker.

Based on several threads, both recent and long ago, I had *thought*
(after an annoyingly high number of confirmation questions in a
long-ago thread, because my [limited] physics understanding refused to
believe it) that you could dry pump all the liquid out of the standing
part of the vented loop.

Yes...you should be able to, provided the toilet is working anywhere
near spec and the lift doesn't exceed about 4' (6' horizontal). So one
or more of 3 reasons isn't letting you do it.

1. Your vented loop is higher than the toilet can lift it.

2. The lift is marginal, a dozen pumps aren't enough.

3. You tried to save money by buying a used PH II on eBay that's turned
out to be so old and worn--or the inside of the pump cylinder is so
scratched and scored by grit and salt--that new seals and o-rings can't
bring it back to specs.

Evidently I'm doing something wrong, because it doesn't. Trying it
"wet" (not wet because I don't have the lines, and I'm not in the water
if I had) didn't make any difference.

It wouldn't...the only thing that "wet" does is allow flush water
IN...it has nothing to do with discharge.

Pumping wildlly (perhaps 2-300
strokes per minute rate) didn't change matters.

That actually defeated what you were trying to accomplish 'cuz flailing
only "aerates" the discharge. Slow deliberate pumping is FAR more
efficient.

I still assume I'll be able to push everything out of the pipe below,
as, once the fall has occurred, and the anti-syphon has let in the air
to take up the space, the next stroke should pressurize it, leading to
the air bubble going all the way to the through hull.

What air bubble??? The air valve in the vented loop only brings air
into a line through which liquid is being PULLED...it doesn't do a thing
in a line through which anything is being pushed. So there is no "air
bubble" in the dishcarge line. The vented loop is only there to prevent
the SEA from starting a siphon back into your toilet...it doesn't have
anything whatever to do with flushing a toilet.

I'm beginning to wonder if ANYone knows how a vented loop works!

Our marker for
success will be to have the t/h bubble (I'm sure there is a quantified
number of strokes that this will take, and we'll have to wait until
we're in the water to determine that number), and will become our
standard for final flushes.

No...your "standard for final flushes" will be the number it takes to
move bowl contents from the bowl to their final destination...or at
least over the top of a vented loop if it's all downhill the rest of the
way.

However, I can't get rid of the standing water. What am I doing wrong
(or, is there an equipment problem?) such that I can't pump the
standing water out?

You're always gonna have a little left in the line to run back downhill.
The joker valve should reduce it to slow seepage, but it won't keep it
out of the bowl entirely.

I suggest you give Vic Willman at Raritan a call: 800-352-5630 x 6.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

On 17 May 2006 17:25:16 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

2. The lift is marginal, a dozen pumps aren't enough.

50 measured @ ~ 1/second (1/2 second lift, 1/2 second push) strokes
isn't enough - I just tested...

Skip, the problem is that you are pumping by hand. Everyone that I
know who has tried an electric head has never gone back, and you won't
either. If you don't believe me, try converting one of your two heads
to electric and let me know which one you like better after 6 months
of cruising.

Wayne.B wrote:
Skip, the problem is that you are pumping by hand. Everyone that I
know who has tried an electric head has never gone back, and you won't
either. If you don't believe me, try converting one of your two heads
to electric and let me know which one you like better after 6 months
of cruising.

Replace maybe, but converting any manual toilet to electric is a very
bad idea, 'cuz all the motor does is replace the pump handle...it's
still a manual toilet, but with a whole new set of problems. Almost
everyone I know who's put a motor on a manual toilet has gotten so fed
up that they took the motor off and reverted to manual again.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

On Thu, 18 May 2006 01:23:48 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Almost
everyone I know who's put a motor on a manual toilet has gotten so fed
up that they took the motor off and reverted to manual again.

Good point but I wasn't suggesting a conversion.

As I understand this, no bubble stream from a poo pump sucking an empty
bowl is ever gonna percolate much watery waste up a 3 foot loop
discharge, vented or no. Well, mabey no, since syphon action would
pull the poo up the unvented loop, but not efficiently, especially once
the donating vessel empties and the syphon is sucking air from the
source instead of from an air valve designed to short circuit the
phenomenon.

With all the frantic bubble pumping concluded, there is going to be a
significant amount of water that never makes it over the top of the
loop and tumbles back to the bottom, to rest against the duck bill and
foot valve, which might very well leak back into the bowl. My duck bill
leaks not at all, even (especially?) when tested with the holding tank
air pressure I use to purge the tank and test for withered wrinkled
duck lips and fawltey towers foot valves. Drink decent beer, it doesn't
rot the rubbers, Billy.

Tough titty. Get used to it. The only way to prevent scaling in the
discharge is to rinse copiously, every time, leaving only clean rinse
water in the tubes. Eliminate it with vinegar.

For arguement's sake, I value my time at one decabuck per hour. At 10
bucks per hour, how much air must a poo pumper pump to achieve the cost
effectiveness of replacing the bottom end of the poo out pipe once
every two years or so, or if it ever scales itself shut? Factor in a
cheap and easy quick fitting arrangement, so pipes are easy to inspect
and quick and easy to change using MJ couplings and even rigid pipe
where possible. Rigid pipe is safe, my house hasn't sunk yet, and the
pipes ( I really do go around snorfling pipes!) don't stink.

I am confident in my recipie, and am prepared to plunge the plumbing
whilst standing on my head in a puddle of poo in the bilge, again. I
have done it before and frankly, it didn't bother me much, really.
Youse are all a bunch of wussies. You survived a messy childbirth, so a
little internal goo applied externally ain't gonna hurt you, unless
someone in the crew brings cholera aboard in his gut sack. Where was
he eating?

I would not consider spending a thousand bucks to avoid smelling a fart
every few years. Mind, my system has required no maintenance since I
cobbled it up three years ago, though I did change the old bellowed car
radiator hose connecting the head to the port / sea "tee" just out of a
sense of unease. An engine oil change regimen is more trouble,
messier, and more environmentally challenging. A purgeable poo tank
enables supervised purging, only opening the sea discharge on occasion,
as required to maintain vessel ballasting trim.

Point for discussion:

-Keeping the sea valve thru hull open unattended is more dangerous than
not having an anti syphon vented loop.

Terry K

As always, Terry, your post is informative and entertaining.

I'm not the least bit concerned about disassembly, and have made it
pretty easy should it be needed.

I've also got PVC for all but the first 16" (AVS96) and the last 4",
amply secured - though I believe this space has seen some discussion
about the difficulty of destruction of PVC if properly glued up. I
realistically expect this to be the last time I have to deal with the
system for a very long time.

My quest for a dry pipe was entirely based on Peggie's assertions that
that's how it worked. I'd not expected it, and in fact refused (how
can 1.5" of water not go down the side of a bubble??) to believe it.
Whether or not it can or can't is now moot, as mine doesn't, at least
completely. However, before I "learned" that fact, I'd expected to
properly care for the system by appropriate-interval disassembly and
regreasing along with periodic applications of vinagar, accompanied by
a copious fresh (well, salt, but unencumbered) water rinse before the
dry flush, as much as it may or may not put out.

I still hold that it might be possible to get all the liquid out the
bottom, and have a somewhat pressurized air column until more water is
introduced, or the joker allows bleedback into the bowl, following a
sufficient air/dry pump. It's the diving bell concept in miniature -
and, I suppose, to a certain degree, your (I love it!) pressurized
holding tank emptying modus as well. Doesn't yours bubble after all
the liquid's out?

One question, not being familiar with them - what's a MJ coupling? If
you look at the pix of my termination, you'll see I used a rubber
coupling to go from the PVC to the Y, with a butt joint in between. The
coupling is held on to both the Y and the PVC with two clamptites each,
and the butt is covered with a standard clamp (one of the ones which
came with the coupling).

Should I have to get into that, snipping the clamptites, unscrewing the
strap clamp, and sliding the coupling back on the PVC will allow me to
remove the Y (the reverse of my installation). On the other end, the
joker comes out easily, and will be a 10-minute change as needed.
Should I have to get into the PVC section, it's a
screwed-on-with-Teflon-tape nipple. And, of course,as previously
mentioned, in the unthinkable (inconceivable) possibility of a clog
downstream of the loop, I can snake it (from either end, but with no
in-the-bilge residue if done from the cleanout).

As our use will be offshore nearly always (in sanitation terms,
anyway), we'll rarely use the holding tank. Otherwise, your solution
just tickles me to death, and if we were in a place to use it, I'd want
to give it a try.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we
bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,
messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."