Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Mon, 08 May 2006 10:33:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.
==========================

Good advice, better yet to recognize and avoid "tight spots" whenever
possible.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Roger Long"
wrote:
If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.


I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go
fast enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed,
it's how you try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.


Wayne.B wrote:
Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind.

Bingo!
And also to not fight the main with the rudder. When the
mainsail fills, of course it tries to 'weathervane' the boat
head-to-wind, which most people then slam the helm over to
prevent. Result: boat doesn't steer & doesn't accelerate to
sailing speed.


.... When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.


Excellent and very much to the point IMHO. It's an unusual
sailing skill, and somewhat contrary to regular practice;
but the way to do it is to ease out large amounts of
mainsheet and let the sail luff freely until the boat is
pointed to a beam reach. I often ease the main out and pump
the helm to windward to kick the stern up, very counter
intuitive to most sailors but it works well.

Our pudgy little trailerable Hunter 19 would not only sail
pretty well under main alone, but could be coaxed into
making pretty good ground to windward *if* you started out
by building up speed on a beam reach (which means not
fighting the helm) and then slowly pointed up. If you tried
to accelerate on a close reach you just end up in irons.

Some catamarans, and Sunfish, have this problem too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"DSK" wrote in

I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go fast
enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed, it's how you
try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.

That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.
I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something. My
specific, individual, boat does that when sailing at the speed that it
can maintain under main when slowing down from a full sail plan or
motor sailing. It won't do it at the speed it can reach with its
relatively small main alone, even working up from a broad reach.

Even under a full sail plan, most boats will slow down to a higher
speed in many conditions than they can be accelerated to. On my boat,
in strong winds, that speed difference just brackets the conditions of
equilibrium for self steering to windward which is always a bit
elusive in fin keel boats.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Wed, 17 May 2006 23:00:04 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.
I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.

All of my sailboats had tiller pilots from the mid 70s onward. We
regarded them as essential for shorthanded sailing or extended
cruising. It's like always having an extra person aboard who does not
sleep, eat, drink your beer or complain. What is that worth? :-)

When we did the first shakedown cruise on our trawler 2 years ago the
autopilot was not working. It went to the top of our "must fix" list
after 2 days.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:20:41 -0400, Wayne.B
said:


does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.


Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.
Mine too!

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go fast
enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed, it's how you
try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.


Roger Long wrote:
That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.

How do you know? ;)

Actually I have sailed one enough like it that there should
be any big differences.

I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that.

Well, I was. And it's not a "fuzzy concept" at all. Making a
positive VMG to windward with a handicap like a compromised
rig, or under other adverse circumstances, is both very
quantifiable and very important.


... I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

Two words.... auto pilot.

.... My
specific, individual, boat does that when sailing at the speed that it
can maintain under main when slowing down from a full sail plan or
motor sailing. It won't do it at the speed it can reach with its
relatively small main alone, even working up from a broad reach.

Even under a full sail plan, most boats will slow down to a higher
speed in many conditions than they can be accelerated to. On my boat,
in strong winds, that speed difference just brackets the conditions of
equilibrium for self steering to windward which is always a bit
elusive in fin keel boats.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

As for getting a fin keel boat... or a centerboard dinghy,
for that matter.... to steer itself while close-hauled or
close reaching, that's easy. I've never sailed a boat that I
couldn't get to do that, either, including a Laser. In fact,
it should be easier under main alone since a stronger
weather helm will give more feedback for the boat to correct
itself.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:04:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:20:41 -0400, Wayne.B
said:

does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.

Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Matt O'Toole" wrote

Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate
winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best
candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.

Most of the fin keel boats I've sailed had spade rudders and you
couldn't let go of them for a second; especially if they had tillers.

To be a little more precise about my boat (which has a modified rudder
and may not be typical of all E 32's):

Going fast under main alone, as in right after rolling up the headsail
or turning off the engine, self steering close hauled is effortless.
As long as the boat isn't yawing when you do it, just turning the helm
brake starts her jogging along to windward.

Going slowly, at the speed the boat can reach under main alone from a
standing start or after losing speed in a tack, the five minutes or so
of tweaking I tried before giving up wouldn't get her to settle down.
More experimentation, wearing around instead of tacking, etc. may
still do it so I shouldn't say she doesn't self steer.

At the higher speed it's easy, at the lower speed it's hard and maybe
impossible.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best
candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.



Roger Long wrote:
Most of the fin keel boats I've sailed had spade rudders and you
couldn't let go of them for a second; especially if they had tillers.


But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your
own boat?

DSK

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"DSK" wrote

But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your own
boat?

Never tried it but it's had to imagine the Pearson 26 which I sailed a
lot would do it. I'm thinking back 20 years though.

If anyone knows of a spade rudder boat (except maybe for a long,
skinny, atypical, type) steering itself to windward, I'd be curious to
hear. Some skeg ahead of the rudder seems to help a lot.

--

Roger Long