Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Nikita" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.

PS: For the record, I traded the Catalina for a Hobie Cat, and sailed
just fine in the thing, so I can't be THAT rusty...

We have a fleet of the Capri 16.5s. Your answer is b. I'm betting it was in
fairly high wind. Those are our conditions.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

The average sloop sailboat does sails well with either the main or jib
alone.
The better one do go upwind with the main alone or jib.
The trick is practice and more practice. When I had knee surgery I sailed
with the main alone for a while. Then with the jib alone. After a while I
used both sails.
The best way is to start practicing on a calm day. You have to master the
art of filling your sails and emptying them. There are no book or video
that will trained you properly. Like a toddler you have to do it again and
again until you become confident and assert yourself. Sometime taking a in
the water sailing course coupled with classroom teaching is better than
renting a boat that you are not familiar with.

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On 6 May 2006 20:16:28 -0700, "Nikita" wrote:

This is not directly related to cruising, but I hope you guys can help
me out on this one...

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time. Luckily the boat had a small
trolling motor on it, so I was able to motor-sail it back to the rental
office and return it without incident. But for the motor, I would have
been stuck on the downwind side of the lake.

Now, I realize that sloops are designed for two sails, but the boats I
learned to sail on (Club 420, if you are interested) handle just fine
under main alone. So why was I having so much trouble? Is it because

a) I haven't sailed over the winter and I'm rusty
b) Catalina 16.5s handle much worse without a jib than an average boat
c) Something else I'm not aware about.

Input appreciated!

Nikita.


The Club 420 mast is much further forward than the Catalina 16.5, and the
main
is relatively much larger. Without a jib, those differences could be very
significant.

It's also possible that the mast on the particular Catalina you rented was
rigged with too much rake. That would tend to increase weather helm.

When you realized you couldn't sail well on the main alone, why didn't you
just
raise the jib? If you "learned" on a 420, this should have been no big
deal.


Terry & Skipper, Clearlake Texas

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up
the jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered
though that this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib
and roll up the jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving
fast. The main is sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay
in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also
lose enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get
the boat sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it
up to enough speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll
up the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then
find your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters
and counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer
itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
There are not a lot of simple answers.

Our Endeavor 32 steers itself very well too windward if you roll up the
jib in a strong wind. It will also tack, once. I discovered though that
this is only true when you have been sailing with the jib and roll up the
jib without losing much speed while the boat is moving fast. The main is
sufficient to keep the boat moving enough to stay in balance.

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone to
reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself. You will also lose
enough speed in the first tack that you can't tack again or get the boat
sailing itself. Even bearing off and heading up won't get it up to enough
speed.

This is why it's important to really know your boat. You could roll up
the jib, have the boat sailing fine although slowly, tack, and then find
your self in an awkward situation if you were in tight quarters and
counting on being able to tack again or have the boat steer itself.

This is a peculiarity of our boat. You mileage will certainly vary.

--

Roger Long

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of experience
with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib. Your mileage will
certainly vary on other boats, however.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Capt. JG" wrote

There is a simple answer for this boat actually. We have lots of
experience with the 16.5s. If the wind pipes up, you need the jib.
Your mileage will certainly vary on other boats, however.

I'm not sure which boat you are referring to here but you certainly do
need the jib in the E 32 if you want to get anywhere before you grow
old. Being able to just roll up the jib and have the boat keep
jogging along slowly while you duck below for something is a great
feature however when you are single handed. It really helps to know
though that you mustn't let the speed fall off too much while you roll
the jib or the boat isn't going to maintain a course.

This is a perfect example of the common situation where a boat has two
potential speeds in the same wind velocity, one that it can speed up
to and a slightly faster one that it will slow down to.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

I wished I could! The jib was not on the boat. That was certainly a
mistake on my part; I should have rigged it and just left it down. The
guys at the rental office didn't come out with any warnings when I told
them I wanted to sail the Catalina with the main alone, so I assumed I
would be fine.

Live and learn, I guess...

Nikita.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Sun, 07 May 2006 12:48:35 +0000, Mys Terry wrote:

On 6 May 2006 20:16:28 -0700, "Nikita" wrote:

I rented a Catalina 16.5 today, and being somewhat rusty and in an
unfamiliar boat, decided to sail it with only the main, figuring I'd
have less to worry about. Result: near disaster.

I couldn't tack the thing at all. It would come up into the wind just
fine, and then it would sit there, effectively stopping me. When
sailing even marginally upwind, it had horrible weather helm, trying to
come up into the wind all the time.

The Club 420 mast is much further forward than the Catalina 16.5, and the main
is relatively much larger. Without a jib, those differences could be very
significant.

This is the key. Boats with a larger main and smaller jib may
sail upwind fine with just the main, and vice versa -- masthead sloops
usually sail better with just the jib than just the main.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

Excellent generalities and useful to a newbie sailor but they don't
have anything to do with what was talking about.

I was actually focusing on the idea of knowing your boat and how it
will behave in different conditions. I used to amuse people by close
reaching Solings backwards in Boston Harbor so I know there are a lot
of ways to skin a cat when it comes to making a boat do what you want.
It was a surprise to me though how differently my boat behaves under
main alone when slowing down from the speed of the full sail plan or
motor sailing with the main only and when working up to speed from a
near stop. It's not something I would have wanted to discover in a
narrow channel with the engine out. In open water, I just would have
worn around and jibed to the new course. It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:39:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main
alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.

Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or
close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind. When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the
wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed
on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough
momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Mon, 08 May 2006 10:33:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

It's good to go out and
experiment a lot with your boat before you get it into tight spots.
==========================

Good advice, better yet to recognize and avoid "tight spots" whenever
possible.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Roger Long"
wrote:
If you let the boat stop, or try to get it going from a stop such as
casting off a mooring, it can't get going fast enough under main alone
to reach the equilibrium where it will sail itself.


I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go
fast enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed,
it's how you try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.


Wayne.B wrote:
Almost any sloop will sail under main alone if beam reaching or close
reaching. The trick is to not over trim the sails, and get the boat
to the right angle with the wind.

Bingo!
And also to not fight the main with the rudder. When the
mainsail fills, of course it tries to 'weathervane' the boat
head-to-wind, which most people then slam the helm over to
prevent. Result: boat doesn't steer & doesn't accelerate to
sailing speed.


.... When leaving a mooring, or any
other time when stopped head to wind, it is useful to back the
mainsail to windward by pushing on the boom. With proper rudder
control this will cause the boat to back up and fall off to the wind.
At that point you should be able to sheet in just to the point where
the sail is full and begin moving forward. If you can build speed on
a beam reach or close reach, a keel boat should carry enough momentum
to allow a tack. Don't over trim or try to point too high. Timing
and rudder control are critical.


Excellent and very much to the point IMHO. It's an unusual
sailing skill, and somewhat contrary to regular practice;
but the way to do it is to ease out large amounts of
mainsheet and let the sail luff freely until the boat is
pointed to a beam reach. I often ease the main out and pump
the helm to windward to kick the stern up, very counter
intuitive to most sailors but it works well.

Our pudgy little trailerable Hunter 19 would not only sail
pretty well under main alone, but could be coaxed into
making pretty good ground to windward *if* you started out
by building up speed on a beam reach (which means not
fighting the helm) and then slowly pointed up. If you tried
to accelerate on a close reach you just end up in irons.

Some catamarans, and Sunfish, have this problem too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"DSK" wrote in

I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go fast
enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed, it's how you
try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.

That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.
I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something. My
specific, individual, boat does that when sailing at the speed that it
can maintain under main when slowing down from a full sail plan or
motor sailing. It won't do it at the speed it can reach with its
relatively small main alone, even working up from a broad reach.

Even under a full sail plan, most boats will slow down to a higher
speed in many conditions than they can be accelerated to. On my boat,
in strong winds, that speed difference just brackets the conditions of
equilibrium for self steering to windward which is always a bit
elusive in fin keel boats.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Wed, 17 May 2006 23:00:04 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.
I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.

All of my sailboats had tiller pilots from the mid 70s onward. We
regarded them as essential for shorthanded sailing or extended
cruising. It's like always having an extra person aboard who does not
sleep, eat, drink your beer or complain. What is that worth? :-)

When we did the first shakedown cruise on our trawler 2 years ago the
autopilot was not working. It went to the top of our "must fix" list
after 2 days.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:20:41 -0400, Wayne.B
said:


does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.


Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.
Mine too!

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

I disagree. I've never ever sailed one that wouldn't "go fast
enough" under main alone. The problem is not top speed, it's how you
try to get the boat to accelerate from stopped.


Roger Long wrote:
That's a pretty silly disagreement since you haven't sailed my boat.

How do you know? ;)

Actually I have sailed one enough like it that there should
be any big differences.

I wasn't talking about the fuzzy concept of "fast enough", my boat
does that.

Well, I was. And it's not a "fuzzy concept" at all. Making a
positive VMG to windward with a handicap like a compromised
rig, or under other adverse circumstances, is both very
quantifiable and very important.


... I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

Two words.... auto pilot.

.... My
specific, individual, boat does that when sailing at the speed that it
can maintain under main when slowing down from a full sail plan or
motor sailing. It won't do it at the speed it can reach with its
relatively small main alone, even working up from a broad reach.

Even under a full sail plan, most boats will slow down to a higher
speed in many conditions than they can be accelerated to. On my boat,
in strong winds, that speed difference just brackets the conditions of
equilibrium for self steering to windward which is always a bit
elusive in fin keel boats.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

As for getting a fin keel boat... or a centerboard dinghy,
for that matter.... to steer itself while close-hauled or
close reaching, that's easy. I've never sailed a boat that I
couldn't get to do that, either, including a Laser. In fact,
it should be easier under main alone since a stronger
weather helm will give more feedback for the boat to correct
itself.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:04:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:20:41 -0400, Wayne.B
said:

does that. I was talking about the more quantifiable ability to
continue steering itself with the helm locked long enough to go down
below and get more clothes, check a chart without getting spray on it,
grab something to eat, or walk up to the bow to tend to something.

I've never seen a sailboat that will do that without some sort of
positive feedback system, i.e., autopilot or windvane.

Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"Matt O'Toole" wrote

Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate
winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best
candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.

Most of the fin keel boats I've sailed had spade rudders and you
couldn't let go of them for a second; especially if they had tillers.

To be a little more precise about my boat (which has a modified rudder
and may not be typical of all E 32's):

Going fast under main alone, as in right after rolling up the headsail
or turning off the engine, self steering close hauled is effortless.
As long as the boat isn't yawing when you do it, just turning the helm
brake starts her jogging along to windward.

Going slowly, at the speed the boat can reach under main alone from a
standing start or after losing speed in a tack, the five minutes or so
of tweaking I tried before giving up wouldn't get her to settle down.
More experimentation, wearing around instead of tacking, etc. may
still do it so I shouldn't say she doesn't self steer.

At the higher speed it's easy, at the lower speed it's hard and maybe
impossible.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best
candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.



Roger Long wrote:
Most of the fin keel boats I've sailed had spade rudders and you
couldn't let go of them for a second; especially if they had tillers.


But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your
own boat?

DSK

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

"DSK" wrote

But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your own
boat?

Never tried it but it's had to imagine the Pearson 26 which I sailed a
lot would do it. I'm thinking back 20 years though.

If anyone knows of a spade rudder boat (except maybe for a long,
skinny, atypical, type) steering itself to windward, I'd be curious to
hear. Some skeg ahead of the rudder seems to help a lot.

--

Roger Long

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

yep, ya need the two sails to creat the "slot" and lift to
get the boat to move fwd...unless you are going down wind,
or "off" the wind.....then a main will just push you along,
downwind...happy sailing!!....

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

" To be a little more precise about my boat (which
has a modified rudder and may not be typical of
all E 32's):"


roger that e32 looks like a great boat...how do ya
like it? what year do you have? on avg, how many
folks do you cruise with?...thanx....

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

Read my assessment of the boat, especially as a single hander, he

Http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat22.htm#Single

There are four of us and it's a great four person boat but will sleep
six for shorter cruises if the double extendable settee is used.
Unlike many boats that sleep six, it will also sail six and even eight
comfortably and six people can sit comfortably at the cabin table for
dinner.

A lot of ganja got smoked while these boat were being built so there
are a lot of funny angles in the interior joinerwork which gives them
a kind of hobbit like charm. It's all real wood however and one of
the pleasantest interiors I've seen in this price and size range.

The hulls and decks are solid and thick so there are no core problems
to worry about. These boats will be around long after most of their
contemporaries are gone.

The handling qualities are what I like best about the boat.

Ours is a 1980, the next to the last year and the first with the teak
cabin sole that adds a lot to the boat.

There's more than any rational and sane person would ever want to know
about the boat on my web site at:

Http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

--

Roger Long



"~^ beancounter ~^" wrote in message
ups.com...
" To be a little more precise about my boat (which
has a modified rudder and may not be typical of
all E 32's):"


roger that e32 looks like a great boat...how do ya
like it? what year do you have? on avg, how many
folks do you cruise with?...thanx....

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:

yep, ya need the two sails to creat the "slot" and lift to
get the boat to move fwd...unless you are going down wind,
or "off" the wind.....then a main will just push you along,
downwind...happy sailing!!....


Is that why Lasers and other cat rigs can't go to windward?

;)

DSK

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your own
boat?


Roger Long wrote:
Never tried it but it's had to imagine the Pearson 26 which I sailed a
lot would do it. I'm thinking back 20 years though.

If anyone knows of a spade rudder boat (except maybe for a long,
skinny, atypical, type) steering itself to windward, I'd be curious to
hear. Some skeg ahead of the rudder seems to help a lot.


I know of many... am pretty sure to have done it on a
Pearson 26, one of which I made a delivery trip many years ago.

All you need to do is get the helm set just enough to
weather that the boat will sail straight ahead when heeled a
bit, bear away when the wind slacks up or heads, and rounds
up slightly when heeled too far. I've done it on many fin
keelers including quite a few with no skeg. The best way
IMHO is to use a piece of very strong shock cord across the
cockpit & clove-hitched to the tiller, so that you can make
a fine adjustment by slipping the hitch a few twists to one
side or the other... and you can also grab the helm and
steer by hand if you have some urgent reason to do so quickly.

You're right that an underwater shape with more longitudinal
stability helps a lot. But it's not necessary to get the
boat to "sail itself" to windward or close reaching. On a
beam reach or off the wind, no dice!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

roger...i will cruise the web site....thanx....

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

yea, good point...i guess i would say
they can't sail near as close to the wind...
as a sloop can......

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

Actually, one sail is inherently more close winded and efficient than
two or more. Catboats can sail quite close to the wind. The rub is
having to have a mast which is not as good a leading edge.

When throwing around these broad generalizations, you have to keep
mind that it isn't fair to compare a sloop with a very efficient hull
and keels, good sails, and all sorts of sail controls, with a
traditional catboat with a gaff, centerboard, etc. There's much more
to it than just the sail plan. Even the hulls of the modern catboats
such as the Nonsuch boats are not the same hulls found under many
sloop rigs.

--

Roger Long



"~^ beancounter ~^" wrote in message
oups.com...
yea, good point...i guess i would say
they can't sail near as close to the wind...
as a sloop can......

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

yea, i was also thinking of the laser and sabot...location fore and aft
of the mast plays a role as well...as the laser and sabot have the mast
way foward...while sloopd have the mast closer to the center of the
vessel...that is ...more over the keel vs. way foward....

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Fri, 19 May 2006 18:38:12 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

"Matt O'Toole" wrote

Gee, my old Islander 24 would do that most of the time in moderate
winds. In
fact often it would do it without the helm locked.

A lot of boats balance well enough for this. In fact the best
candidates
for vane steering are the boats that almost don't need it.

Most of the fin keel boats I've sailed had spade rudders and you
couldn't let go of them for a second; especially if they had tillers.

This certainly isn't always true, though it's more common than not.
And many full keeled boats balance terribly too.

To be a little more precise about my boat (which has a modified rudder
and may not be typical of all E 32's):

Going fast under main alone, as in right after rolling up the headsail
or turning off the engine, self steering close hauled is effortless. As
long as the boat isn't yawing when you do it, just turning the helm
brake starts her jogging along to windward.

Going slowly, at the speed the boat can reach under main alone from a
standing start or after losing speed in a tack, the five minutes or so
of tweaking I tried before giving up wouldn't get her to settle down.
More experimentation, wearing around instead of tacking, etc. may still
do it so I shouldn't say she doesn't self steer.

At the higher speed it's easy, at the lower speed it's hard and maybe
impossible.

This is key, or one of the keys. The more speed you have, the more lift
the foils have, and the less they're overwhelmed by the sails.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Fri, 19 May 2006 20:14:52 +0000, Roger Long wrote:

There's more than any rational and sane person would ever want to know
about the boat on my web site at:

Http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

Roger, I saw your website and it looks like a pretty nice boat -- maybe
underrated and therefore a really good buy right now. Of course we're all
always thinking about our next boat!

Websites like yours are a great resource, and hopefully an archive.
Sadly, despite the amount of techie brainpower in the sailing community,
most mainstream boating sites are terrible. Thankfully folks like
yourself are carrying the torch. If you ever have to let the site go, I
hope you'll put out an appeal for someone to continue hosting it.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

so, question...what sailboat is most
effecient (overall) for sailing upwind?

i guess measured by ground track, or
a gps benchmark?

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

DSK wrote:
But if OTOH you locked the helm, like you have to do on your own boat?



Roger Long wrote:

Never tried it but it's had to imagine the Pearson 26 which I sailed a
lot would do it. I'm thinking back 20 years though.

If anyone knows of a spade rudder boat (except maybe for a long,
skinny, atypical, type) steering itself to windward, I'd be curious to
hear. Some skeg ahead of the rudder seems to help a lot.


I know of many... am pretty sure to have done it on a Pearson 26, one of
which I made a delivery trip many years ago.

All you need to do is get the helm set just enough to weather that the
boat will sail straight ahead when heeled a bit, bear away when the wind
slacks up or heads, and rounds up slightly when heeled too far. I've
done it on many fin keelers including quite a few with no skeg. The best
way IMHO is to use a piece of very strong shock cord across the cockpit
& clove-hitched to the tiller, so that you can make a fine adjustment by
slipping the hitch a few twists to one side or the other... and you can
also grab the helm and steer by hand if you have some urgent reason to
do so quickly.

You're right that an underwater shape with more longitudinal stability
helps a lot. But it's not necessary to get the boat to "sail itself" to
windward or close reaching. On a beam reach or off the wind, no dice!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Longitudinal stability?

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

You're right that an underwater shape with more longitudinal stability
helps a lot. But it's not necessary to get the boat to "sail itself"
to windward or close reaching. On a beam reach or off the wind, no dice!


Gary wrote:
Longitudinal stability?

Perhaps I should have said "directional stability" sorry,
I'm not good at explaining things.

The tendency of a boat to go straight rather than spin like
a top (or vice versa). Some high performance boats will
literally sling the crew out of the boat if allowed to turn
as fast as they want to. Personally, I don't think that's
necessarily a bad thing, but the skipper has to know the
boat's characterisitcs and how to successfuly use them to
advantage... or at least cope...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

On Sat, 20 May 2006 13:22:40 -0700, ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:

so, question...what sailboat is most
effecient (overall) for sailing upwind?

i guess measured by ground track, or
a gps benchmark?

Among monohulls, undoubtedly an America's Cup boat, but fast multis may do
better.

Matt O.

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
so, question...what sailboat is most
effecient (overall) for sailing upwind?

i guess measured by ground track, or
a gps benchmark?


By racing them, of course ;)

Matt O'Toole wrote:
Among monohulls, undoubtedly an America's Cup boat, but fast multis may do
better.


It takes a pretty fast multi to better an America's Cup
Class boat's VMG upwind, they get about 80% true wind speed.
I dunno if one of the new canting-keel superboats would do
it. But it depends on conditions, too. Light air and
relatively flat water? No question an IACC boat would romp
away from anything else. That's what they're bred for, and
they are very very highly bred. But once things get exciting
it's more an open debate. A lot depends on the sailor(s)
too... beasts of this nature tend to be fragile (actually
they're not at all fragile, it's just the massive amounts of
horsepower they generate make them easy to break) and any
boat with a broken mast or foil will be slower than one intact.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sailing a sloop with main alone...
 

DSK wrote:


You're right that an underwater shape with more longitudinal
stability helps a lot. But it's not necessary to get the boat to
"sail itself" to windward or close reaching. On a beam reach or off
the wind, no dice!



Gary wrote:

Longitudinal stability?


Perhaps I should have said "directional stability" sorry, I'm not good
at explaining things.

The tendency of a boat to go straight rather than spin like a top (or
vice versa). Some high performance boats will literally sling the crew
out of the boat if allowed to turn as fast as they want to. Personally,
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but the skipper has to
know the boat's characterisitcs and how to successfuly use them to
advantage... or at least cope...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Got it! Thanks.