wrote:
Hi, a few questions for those of you In The Know,

1971 Ranger 26 (Gary Mull). Cockpit drains forward to two drain hoses
that go straight
to through-hulls.


IMHO that's a rather poor design. Would it be feasible to
replace the hoses & valves with fiberglass tubes?


Required: install ball valves or seacocks (as there are none now, and
insurance blah blah
blah) and replace hose.

Can anyone walk me through the process? I'm assuming the through
hulls are bronze and threaded internally, looks to be about 1 1/2" hose
with double hose clamps at the hull connection. (I'll be verifying the
through hull threading this weekend).


Assume nothing until you disassmble what's in place now, and
see. Usually thru-hulls like this have what paradoxically
called Straight Pipe Thread, which is a parallel thread
intended to mate to tapered pipe thread. A poor compromise,
it's not as strong as either and it's relatively hard to get
a good seal.


So -

- new clamps - 304 enough, or 316 SS? freshwater use exclusively.


Use 316

- what kind of hose is recommended? clear plastic w/ reinforce
mesh?


No, use the reinforced hose rated for engine intake. It's
below the waterline, right?


- ball valve or seacock? everyone's using ball valves these days
but West
Marine says no no use seacock


A "seacock" is not really a good descriptor of a specific
type of valve. I tend to think of a flanged plug-cock valve
as a seacock, but these are rather old-fashioned (although
still great for this service, but they're expensive to make
and thus hard to find in today's bubble-pak world).

Anyway, ball valves are workable if they're the right
material, they're cheap & readily available.


- what kind of valve? bronze ok assuming through hull is bronze?
straight
threading or just match the through hull threading?


The best thing to do would be to get a flange fitting that
is matched to the thru-hull threads, and screw it down all
the way against the hull, and then mount the seacock valve
on that flange.

But that's a lot of trouble & expense, it's very rarely
done, and *if* the threads are matched & put together well,
then they seem to be strong enough for most service.



(is there any chance it's brass? i'm guessing no but not sure..
probably
would have corroded by now?)


Brass doesn't corrode, it turn lighter color & gets very
brittle. Try scraping it hard with something made of tool steel.

- teflon tape sealant on the threading? or something else?


I use teflon tape, myself, but takes scrupulous attention to
detail. I've rarely seen anybody else do it right except
field technicians (and they mess up sometimes). The average
person should not monkey with teflon tape, there's too much
that can go wrong (perhaps I should seek sponsorship from a
thread-dope company).



Anything else I'm missing here (yeah I have some spruce plugs
standing by)?


This will be considered heresy by some, but duct tape & a
garbage bag will seal up holes & leaks quicker & better than
any wood plug. What if the hole is jagged, or a piece of
valve is protruding?

This is why I said to think about putting in fiberglass.
It's strong. It will never leak or need maintenance. It is
proof against corrosion, abrasion, fire. It's more work, but
you'll never have to fool with it again (are you planning to
own this boat for a long time?)

After all, the only reason you need the valve is in case the
hose breaks somehow.

But then what do I know, I prefer open transoms

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug,
I agree about the design, but would it be easier to fill the existing holes
and install thru hulls above the waterline? this would also negate another
post about freezing water causing problems.
MMC

"DSK" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi, a few questions for those of you In The Know,

1971 Ranger 26 (Gary Mull). Cockpit drains forward to two drain hoses
that go straight
to through-hulls.


IMHO that's a rather poor design. Would it be feasible to
replace the hoses & valves with fiberglass tubes?


Required: install ball valves or seacocks (as there are none now, and
insurance blah blah
blah) and replace hose.

Can anyone walk me through the process? I'm assuming the through
hulls are bronze and threaded internally, looks to be about 1 1/2" hose
with double hose clamps at the hull connection. (I'll be verifying the
through hull threading this weekend).


Assume nothing until you disassmble what's in place now, and
see. Usually thru-hulls like this have what paradoxically
called Straight Pipe Thread, which is a parallel thread
intended to mate to tapered pipe thread. A poor compromise,
it's not as strong as either and it's relatively hard to get
a good seal.


So -

- new clamps - 304 enough, or 316 SS? freshwater use exclusively.


Use 316

- what kind of hose is recommended? clear plastic w/ reinforce
mesh?


No, use the reinforced hose rated for engine intake. It's
below the waterline, right?


- ball valve or seacock? everyone's using ball valves these days
but West
Marine says no no use seacock


A "seacock" is not really a good descriptor of a specific
type of valve. I tend to think of a flanged plug-cock valve
as a seacock, but these are rather old-fashioned (although
still great for this service, but they're expensive to make
and thus hard to find in today's bubble-pak world).

Anyway, ball valves are workable if they're the right
material, they're cheap & readily available.


- what kind of valve? bronze ok assuming through hull is bronze?
straight
threading or just match the through hull threading?


The best thing to do would be to get a flange fitting that
is matched to the thru-hull threads, and screw it down all
the way against the hull, and then mount the seacock valve
on that flange.

But that's a lot of trouble & expense, it's very rarely
done, and *if* the threads are matched & put together well,
then they seem to be strong enough for most service.



(is there any chance it's brass? i'm guessing no but not sure..
probably
would have corroded by now?)


Brass doesn't corrode, it turn lighter color & gets very
brittle. Try scraping it hard with something made of tool steel.

- teflon tape sealant on the threading? or something else?


I use teflon tape, myself, but takes scrupulous attention to
detail. I've rarely seen anybody else do it right except
field technicians (and they mess up sometimes). The average
person should not monkey with teflon tape, there's too much
that can go wrong (perhaps I should seek sponsorship from a
thread-dope company).



Anything else I'm missing here (yeah I have some spruce plugs
standing by)?


This will be considered heresy by some, but duct tape & a
garbage bag will seal up holes & leaks quicker & better than
any wood plug. What if the hole is jagged, or a piece of
valve is protruding?

This is why I said to think about putting in fiberglass.
It's strong. It will never leak or need maintenance. It is
proof against corrosion, abrasion, fire. It's more work, but
you'll never have to fool with it again (are you planning to
own this boat for a long time?)

After all, the only reason you need the valve is in case the
hose breaks somehow.

But then what do I know, I prefer open transoms

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

MMC wrote:
I agree about the design, but would it be easier to fill the existing holes
and install thru hulls above the waterline? this would also negate another
post about freezing water causing problems.
MMC


That's a good idea too, if you can design it so the drain
tubes don't block the quarter berths.

Freezing water can break fiberglass, though. It's tougher
than hoses but nothing's perfect

DSK

Drains above the waterline are also much less prone to clogging. The
floating stuff goes right through instead of building up into a mat at
the water level.

You should close the seacocks on below water hoses when leaving the
boat so that means coming back to water (and slime if its been a long
time) in the cockpit.

Are you sure your cockpit really drains forward? Sometimes builders
just put the drains there because it is easier. A good arrangement is
drains straight back through the transom. You can get through hulls
with flappers to prevent back surge and there are special drains to
install low for complete drainage.

--

Roger Long



"MMC" wrote in message
m...
Doug,
I agree about the design, but would it be easier to fill the
existing holes
and install thru hulls above the waterline? this would also negate
another
post about freezing water causing problems.
MMC

"DSK" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi, a few questions for those of you In The Know,

1971 Ranger 26 (Gary Mull). Cockpit drains forward to two drain
hoses
that go straight
to through-hulls.


IMHO that's a rather poor design. Would it be feasible to
replace the hoses & valves with fiberglass tubes?


Required: install ball valves or seacocks (as there are none
now, and
insurance blah blah
blah) and replace hose.

Can anyone walk me through the process? I'm assuming the
through
hulls are bronze and threaded internally, looks to be about 1
1/2" hose
with double hose clamps at the hull connection. (I'll be
verifying the
through hull threading this weekend).


Assume nothing until you disassmble what's in place now, and
see. Usually thru-hulls like this have what paradoxically
called Straight Pipe Thread, which is a parallel thread
intended to mate to tapered pipe thread. A poor compromise,
it's not as strong as either and it's relatively hard to get
a good seal.


So -

- new clamps - 304 enough, or 316 SS? freshwater use
exclusively.


Use 316

- what kind of hose is recommended? clear plastic w/
reinforce
mesh?


No, use the reinforced hose rated for engine intake. It's
below the waterline, right?


- ball valve or seacock? everyone's using ball valves these
days
but West
Marine says no no use seacock


A "seacock" is not really a good descriptor of a specific
type of valve. I tend to think of a flanged plug-cock valve
as a seacock, but these are rather old-fashioned (although
still great for this service, but they're expensive to make
and thus hard to find in today's bubble-pak world).

Anyway, ball valves are workable if they're the right
material, they're cheap & readily available.


- what kind of valve? bronze ok assuming through hull is
bronze?
straight
threading or just match the through hull threading?


The best thing to do would be to get a flange fitting that
is matched to the thru-hull threads, and screw it down all
the way against the hull, and then mount the seacock valve
on that flange.

But that's a lot of trouble & expense, it's very rarely
done, and *if* the threads are matched & put together well,
then they seem to be strong enough for most service.



(is there any chance it's brass? i'm guessing no but not
sure..
probably
would have corroded by now?)


Brass doesn't corrode, it turn lighter color & gets very
brittle. Try scraping it hard with something made of tool steel.

- teflon tape sealant on the threading? or something else?


I use teflon tape, myself, but takes scrupulous attention to
detail. I've rarely seen anybody else do it right except
field technicians (and they mess up sometimes). The average
person should not monkey with teflon tape, there's too much
that can go wrong (perhaps I should seek sponsorship from a
thread-dope company).



Anything else I'm missing here (yeah I have some spruce plugs
standing by)?


This will be considered heresy by some, but duct tape & a
garbage bag will seal up holes & leaks quicker & better than
any wood plug. What if the hole is jagged, or a piece of
valve is protruding?

This is why I said to think about putting in fiberglass.
It's strong. It will never leak or need maintenance. It is
proof against corrosion, abrasion, fire. It's more work, but
you'll never have to fool with it again (are you planning to
own this boat for a long time?)

After all, the only reason you need the valve is in case the
hose breaks somehow.

But then what do I know, I prefer open transoms

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Roger Long wrote:
Drains above the waterline are also much less prone to clogging. The
floating stuff goes right through instead of building up into a mat at
the water level.

That's a nice feature of a catamaran! The cockpit is several feet
above the water.


You should close the seacocks on below water hoses when leaving the
boat so that means coming back to water (and slime if its been a long
time) in the cockpit.

That sounds like prudent advice, but I seem to remember that the
largest single cause of boats sinking is clogged cockpit drains.

Hi:
Everyone is right on with their advice. The problem with teh Ranger is
that there is scant freeboard to put an above the waterline cockpit
discharge plus if above the water line minimal if any head for
drainage. Rangers are great boats, but.......................

So Colin, have you got your tape measure out and looked closley if the
measrment between the waterline and cockpit drains alow an above the
waterline through hull for cockpit discharge?
Bob

Tape measure standing by. Heading out to the yard tomorrow. Thanks very
much for everyone's comments. I think in general redoing the through
hulls above is a good idea and in fact one that occurred to me earlier,
but may be out of scope at least for this season.

I don't want to screw with the existing through hulls (hell the boat's
been floating for 35 years now) so I'm thinking get the proper valves
and get the nice new hose that Will Not Break. I will of course
endeavour to not have another connection point in the hose below
the waterline, which is basically the way it is now.

Bob yeah there is going to be *very scant* freeboard I bet. Closing the
seacocks? I don't know, I get out there once/twice a week and if it
rains a lot cockpit will flood and possibly forward into the cabin.
Transom drainage came about 2 years later as a standard design AFAIK
and in this cockpit the traveller is supported by a little wall on the
back there that closes off the rest.. The (outboard) engine well itself
drains back but everything else is to the front (Roger).

What's the complexity with the teflon tape? I've used this before on
conventional plumbing but I suppose it's not as critical there - what
is the right and wrong way to apply it?

Is there a reasonable way I can confirm that the through hull is
bronze?

I will pull the old hose off there in the morning and look at the
threading. Maybe I can paste a photo in here at that point.

Again thanks for everyone's comments. I may have more info to follow up
on tomorrow. Cheers,

-Colin

wrote:
I don't want to screw with the existing through hulls (hell the boat's
been floating for 35 years now)

'K... it does work, but some of us are paranoid and just
*have* to tell you about all possible failure modes


Bob yeah there is going to be *very scant* freeboard I bet. Closing the
seacocks? I don't know, I get out there once/twice a week and if it
rains a lot cockpit will flood and possibly forward into the cabin.
Transom drainage came about 2 years later as a standard design AFAIK
and in this cockpit the traveller is supported by a little wall on the
back there that closes off the rest.. The (outboard) engine well itself
drains back but everything else is to the front (Roger).


I think closing off the cockpit drain valves while you're
away from the boat is a bad idea. That's one of the things
that make solid fiberglass tubes a good idea IMHO. But
you're right, it's worked all this time and will continue.

It would be less trouble than putting in solid tube fwd
drains and may help if you add a drain tube thru the back
wall under the traveler. Cockpit drainage capacity is one of
those things where more is definitely better!



What's the complexity with the teflon tape? I've used this before on
conventional plumbing but I suppose it's not as critical there - what
is the right and wrong way to apply it?


The basics of the right way:

Always start with clean thread.

Always double check that you're using the right tape for the
service.

Start one thread back from the end of the nipple. The
initial thread contact must be metal to metal.

Wrap the tape the same direction as the threads, so that as
you screw in the fitting, the tape wraps tighter.

Never more than three wraps.

Never put teflon tape on any non-tapered fitting, and never
use teflon tape as a substitute for the right size & pitch
of thread.





Again thanks for everyone's comments. I may have more info to follow up
on tomorrow. Cheers,


You're welcome and I'll be looking out for your results. I'm
going down to the boat this weekend myself, epoxy kit in hand!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote:

Tape measure standing by. Heading out to the yard tomorrow. Thanks very
much for everyone's comments.

I don't want to screw with the existing through hulls (hell the boat's
been floating for 35 years now)
Colin

Hi Again:
My Ranger friend and I stood there staring at his two 1 1/2" valves
scratching our head for a long time. We both agreed that freezing and
sinking or filling the cockpit with water that spills into the cabin
and then sinking were real possibilities. After lots of staring and
talking, and a couple beers, we came to the same conclusion that you
did. Heck, the boat has been sitting at the same slip for 8 winters and
did sink yet. And three of the winters were ugly.... 0 degrees F for a
week., 3" thick ice covering the marina.
Go figure.?!

I was talking to an RN with 25 years experience as an operating room
nurse. She said there is a motto in the OR, "better is the enemy of
good."

NOw evertime I start another project on my boat I mumble repeatedly,
better is the enemy of good...

Bob
Bob

Roger Long wrote:
Drains above the waterline are also much less prone to clogging. The
floating stuff goes right through instead of building up into a mat at
the water level.

You should close the seacocks on below water hoses when leaving the
boat so that means coming back to water (and slime if its been a long
time) in the cockpit.

Are you sure your cockpit really drains forward? Sometimes builders
just put the drains there because it is easier. A good arrangement is
drains straight back through the transom. You can get through hulls
with flappers to prevent back surge and there are special drains to
install low for complete drainage.

With a Ranger 26 it only has to rain about three inches and the cockpit
would drain down into the boat. I wouldn't leave my boat with the
drains closed.