Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:09:06 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

I was interested in the options for water storage on yachts. Some
have intergral to the hull storage, but in many of those discussions
there is no direct reference to lining materials.

High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or
fuel.

Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite
high quality.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:26:02 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or
fuel.

Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite
high quality.

And no doubt it is. I think my my statement about "almost never" is
still true however, even though the reasons are not necessarily clear.

There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to
fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been
many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of
fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline. There's no
reason to think that those same interactions wouldn't take place place
with the resin in a hull, with even more serious consequences.

My first cruising sailboat was a Westerly 28 which was reasonably well
built in most respects. It did have an integral water tank however
built in underneath the V berths. The tank eventually began leaking,
probably from being repeatedly being stressed at its aft bulkhead. We
never did find a totally satisfactory cure and would probably have
needed to rip out the V berths, reinforce/rebuild the tank, and put
the whole thing back together.

Here's another data point. In the process of switching from sail to
power several years ago we spent quite a bit of time looking at
offshore sport fishing boats made by Bertram, Hatteras and Viking. We
already had some experience with our old Bertram 33 and had come to
appreciate just how well it had been built. All three of these
builders have (or had) a reputation for building tough high quality
boats that could go offshore and take a pounding. Not a single one
that we looked at had integral fuel or water tanks. They were all
fiberglass hulls of course and that may be part of the reason but I'm
not sure. It is true that many steel hulled boats, and some with
aluminum hulls have integral tanks but it is not clear if that is
coincidental or structural.

Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question?

High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or
fuel.


Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite
high quality.


Wayne.B wrote:
And no doubt it is. I think my my statement about "almost never" is
still true however, even though the reasons are not necessarily clear.


From what I've seen, CSY's are pretty good boats.

I'd agree that... all else being equal... integral tanks are
not as good...

Of course, all else is very rarely equal. Integral do have
one strong point in their favor, that is their effect on the
center of gravity can be better if they are integrally
located down low in the hull's structure. And as Wayne B
mentions in his post this is commonly done in metal boats.


There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to
fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been
many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of
fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline. There's no
reason to think that those same interactions wouldn't take place place
with the resin in a hull, with even more serious consequences.


It's a big deal to have the tank surfaced properly for
whatever is stored in it, and to have proper access, proper
plumbing connections, level indicators, vents, etc etc. It's
more difficult to provide these with an integral tank so
good builders prefer not to invest the additional labor for
a small benefit, and so they make the tanks seperately...
cheapo builders aren't concerned about that (they aren't
going to do it all properly anyway) and don't want to spend
the extra money for the tank itself.

And of course, it's far more difficult to remove & re-plumb
an integral tank. Been some big improvements in bladder
tanks recently, this is the way I'd go if I were looking at
replacing any tankage on board (except holding tanks).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Wayne.B" wrote
Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question?

I struggled with this question a lot when international standards and
the Coast Guard's starting to enforce Public Health Department rules
made potable water skin tanks illegal in vessels. Watermakers have
eased the situation somewhat but I was designing sailing school
vessels before they were at the state of the art they are today.

Imagine putting enough water for a highly populated, slow, vessel that
makes long voyages into separate tanks with enough space to get around
the outsides for inspection and the bottoms two feet above any
possible bilge water level. You could use up 10% - 15% of the
vessel's usable accommodations capacity pretty easily.

The solution was to have a small potable water tank that went to the
galley and the drinking fountains and big skin tanks that went
everywhere else. All the other water outlets, such as in the heads,
would have a little sign that said, "Not suitable for drinking."
Everyone would brush their teeth or drink it anyway.

It's more of an issue on steel vessels where damage or a corrosion pin
hole wouldn't be discovered in the fresh water tanks. People might
get an unhealthy dose of salt without noticing it. Worse, they might
get some really nasty cholera bug in some port.

This isn't much different from our sailboat where the water in the big
tank tastes bad. Potable water is a bunch of plastic bottles under a
bunk. It's actually a lot easier to hand a new one up to the thirsty
helmsman than keep refilling a glass. Before any long voyages away
from reliable water supply though, I've got to tackle cleaning out
that tank and piping system.

When was the last time you found water seeping through a pin hole or
other damage in the skin of your fiberglass boat? That's about the
risk level of an integral tank. Without the Coast Guard looking over
my plans, I'd put an integral tank in any boat and just keep an eye on
the hull and the taste of the water.

Another reason though for using bottled water, despite confidence in
your tanks, is all the funky stuff that can get into marina hoses and
piping. It doesn't take much getting in when the pipes and hoses sit
out there warm in the sun. Even though we don't drink the water from
our tank, I like to fill it on a weekend when lots of people have been
hosing off their boats and filling their tanks just in case a guest
pours themselves a glass.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote
Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question?


Another reason though for using bottled water, despite confidence in
your tanks, is all the funky stuff that can get into marina hoses and
piping. It doesn't take much getting in when the pipes and hoses sit
out there warm in the sun. Even though we don't drink the water from
our tank, I like to fill it on a weekend when lots of people have been
hosing off their boats and filling their tanks just in case a guest
pours themselves a glass.

We do both. We carry 400 gallons of water in two tanks. We wash our
boat before we fill the tanks. I have no hesitation about drinking
water from the tanks.

We also freeze water in bottles at home and put the frozen bottles in
the frig and freezer on the boat to help it keep cold. The ones in
the refrigerator we periodically put in the head for drinking or
taking pills. We also use those bottles to make sunshine tea. But
when we are living aboard, we keep the water fresh enough to drink
provided we don't fill the tanks with bad water to begin with.

grandma Rosalie

I used to love sunshine tea and never had a problem drinking it but
someone (can't remember who but I do remember that they were credible
on such subjects) told me that you can get very, very sick from it.
The tea leaves grow in far a way places, often are spread out on tarps
in the sun to dry, birds fly over, etc. You put this highly organic
stuff in a bottle and let it heat up to just about the optimum
temperature range for bacterial growth and then drink it.

I'd like to know just how much of a concern this really is. The
person who told me explained it as one of those things you'll get away
with for years but can get life threateningly sick.

BTW I'd have no hesitation about drinking the water out of our tank
either except that it tastes like essence of old boat.

--

Roger Long

I just remembered that my sunshine tea paranoia predates Google where
you can get an answer to anything. (I once typed in "What is the
meaning of life?" and got an answer.)

A search for sunshine tea turns up no hint of a reported problem even
when the words "sick" and "danger" are added in. Given how the world
loves problems, I'm sure someone out there would have heard about it.

Enjoy

(But keep that teapot on board in case I ever visit

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
I just remembered that my sunshine tea paranoia predates Google where
you can get an answer to anything. (I once typed in "What is the
meaning of life?" and got an answer.)


C'mon, don't keep us in suspense.

A search for sunshine tea turns up no hint of a reported problem even
when the words "sick" and "danger" are added in. Given how the world
loves problems, I'm sure someone out there would have heard about it.


Microbiology isn't my strong suit, but I think the tannic
acid kills most of the harmful bugs. That's one reason why
people got in the habit of drinking tea all those centuries ago.

DSK

I find I can make tea just fine using room temp water and allowing a
soak time. Advantage I find over heat brewing is less of an acidic
taste.

Wayne.B wrote:


There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to
fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been
many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of
fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline.

snip

That's why "tank resin" is applied to the interior of fuel/potable
water/hydraulic/waste/etc/etc vessels.

Carries a mil-spec for the procedure as I remember.

Lew