Terry K wrote:
My waste tank is purged to the sea or, with an external hose connected,
to the Wall Mart plaza storm sewer like RVers do it

Peggie Hall wrote:
Actually, unless he's sticking a hose down a storm drain--and maybe not
even then, other than aesthetics (which have never seemed to concern
Larry)--there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it's a lot more
environmentally friendly than dumping a tank at sea. Everything on land
including bird poop ends up in the sewer...and everything in a
sewer--including the contents of all the holding tanks that are pumped
out--ends up in a sewage treatment plant.

You may be a marine sanitation "specialist", but your knowledge of
waste and run-off is blatantly lacking...There IS something wrong with
it...(unless you feel there is nothing wrong with committing a
misdemeanor), bird poop,and Terry"s Wal- Mart deposits, and, as you put
it, "everything on land" does not end up in the sewer, I don't know
what part of Idaho you're from, but in California, the vast majority of
runoff goes to storm drains, barrancas,flood control channels,streams
and rivers, and discharges directly to the harbors and ocean...
nearshore or onshore, about 3 miles shy of the 3 mile limit..Our
beaches are routinely closed by the Health dept. due to elevated levels
of fecal coliform bacteria; bad enough from the"bird poop".. the last
thing we need (or will tolerate) is morons dumping waste in the storm
drains. How you could possibly think that dumping sewage to a storm
drain is more environmentally friendly than at least taking it 3 miles
away from where people live, work, swim, surf, etc. is beyond logic.
Perhaps you've got stock in a gammaglobulin manufacturer...I'm sorry
Peggy, you may be adept at odor control, but your knowledge of
sanitation stinks....
So, I guess it's OK to pee in YOUR pool...

The reason I pointed that out was not to say you personally would
forget to close a valve, but are you the only one that uses the boat?
Do you ever have it serviced by others? When I first started working in
a boatyard about 20 years ago, I was told to go down to a Catalina
(notorius toilet sinkers) they had just splashed, and "make sure all
the through hulls were open", so I did...One of the shipwrights had
left some sawdust in the galley, so I went up to grab a shop vac..I was
gone about 10-15 minutes, and when I returned....The floor boards were
floating in about 8 in. of seawater, which was flowing freely into the
boat from the bowl of the head . 15 more min. would have turned a
cleanup into a salvage. And the plane ref....I bet you don't
"preflight" your boat as meticulously as you do when you fly...and
people are not wandering around your plane with access to critical
system controls ...Bet your insurance co. may have an opinion as
well...I don't seem to have any odor problems with my siphon break,but
I'm careful to keep the lines well flushed...But if you really want to
keep the odor under control...in a word -Vacuflush.! I wish I could
afford that system...too steep for my budget, but one day...
markv

Oh yeah , Roger...
I never made that mistake again...lol...learned my lesson after a
couple of days of clean-up with no pay
and hourly reminders by the boat's owner about how dumb I must be, and
how nice he must be for not getting me fired...lol
markv

markvictor wrote:
Actually, unless he's sticking a hose down a storm drain--and maybe not
even then, other than aesthetics (which have never seemed to concern
Larry)--there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it's a lot more
environmentally friendly than dumping a tank at sea.


What part of "maybe not even then" and "there's nothing wrong with it"
do you fail to comprehend?

What part of "maybe" didn't you understand, Mark? If it ends up in the
sewer--granted, not all storm drains are connected to sewer
pipes...hence my use of the word "maybe"--there's nothing
environmentally wrong with it.

If YOU would actually read the posts, you
would see that what was said was that there may not be anything wrong
with dumping in a storm drain...

Right...I did say "MAY NOT"...


, because "bird poop" and "everything else
on land" ends up in the sewer and sewage is treated. That just isn't
so...

In YOUR area...but not in all. But even storm drains that do empty
directly into the ocean instead of a sewer line do so through pipes that
terminate at least 3 miles offshore (that wasn't always true, but is in
MOST places now), which is also the minimum distance from shore to
legally dump a tank at sea. So how is dumping a tank down a storm drain
that terminates 3 miles offshore any worse for the environment than
dumping it at sea barely 3 miles offshore?

Yours is just one more example of a "knee jerk" emotional reaction
without any rational reasoning behind it.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

So, we have seen some more examples of what I call "emotive
arguements."

In many places, public RV dumps are available at shopping plazas, and
in most places, sanitary and storm sewers are the same thing. I don't
do much RVing, but I have spoken to some who do, and the practice of
dumping at public plaza sanitary facilities, with rinse hoses and
signage, is common, even encouraged by mall operators, who want
travellers to eat and shop there come morning, from behind their blue
line in the parking lot. Our local mall regularly has 50 or so stopped
there in season. Most popular tourist destinations do not have enough
camp grounds and charge too much, and can't survive the short season
economically, so the RVers have pressured to make public rest stops and
dumps more available. It's legal. It's also smart, as it encourages
tourism. Boats are recreational vehicles, too.

I like to have options, and taking advantage of local public
utilities when convenient does not make me a polluter. Nor does
building a system with multiple workable options.

Home hardware PVC ball valves are OK by me, I have tried to break the
one I used, and cannot imagine anything short of a really big hammer
being able to hurt it. No plumbing fixtures leak when new, or they
would not be approved for sale. Mine would be cheaper to replace than
repairing any of the "Marine" fittings.

I would never want to trust any water or drain system that couldn't
handle five or 10 pounds pressure, like all the plumbing materials I
know are capable of doing.

Some essentials for a good odour proof system is simplicity, proper
venting, ease of snaking out relatively straight runs in the event of a
clog, and the fewest possible number of joins in the system.

Those who think that boats are not safe because they are not diamond
coated titanium are just plain paranoid, as well as badly informed.
They probably got their money from grandpa, who earned it in a
practical world. Some of these are the ones that want to bond their
metal through hulls to an electrical system, them complain that they
use up zincs too fast. Hint: disconnect the bonding and check the
fittings for erosion every time you wake up in a cold sweat. Sorry if
I'm O.T.

My home made holding tank is 3/16" thick polyester resin and
fiberglass, lined with several coats of epoxy inside. Built from
leftovers, it's cost is about say, 50 bucks, to be fair, including the
through hull hose fitting. I would trust it rolling down 3 flights of
stairs, full of take your pick. The plumbing is stuck together with
Mechanical Joints, which do not leak or smell, being thick rubber and
sewage rated, and are easy to install and remove for hose replacement
if it ever becomes neccessary. My system does not sit neglected, full
of stuff all year on a salty anchorage with the through hull open. The
head brim is above the water line. The lift from the bottom of the tank
to the discharge is about a foot and a half.

When I replaced my septic tank at the farm, I found it connected
together underground with a 4" MJ on cast iron pipe that had been
underground full of sewage for 40 years, and it was like new, even
after a couple of small earthquakes. My boat does not writhe like an
epileptic snake and there is some slack in the system, and it gets
eyeballed often. The only leaky tank I ever saw on a boat was a
commercial polyethelene tank, with a split in the outlet fitting,
possibly due to neglect and frost. The boat I bought most recently had
the wrong duck bill installed, all warped and jammed in where it didn't
fit. Who would do such a thing?

If you ask any successful engineer, he will agree that the height of
the art and science is to do well enough with the least cost. Spending
a million dollars where a thousand would do is not good engineering
unless you have a government pork project.

My tank does not flex when blowing ballast at about 2 pounds pressure.
The method is most satisfactory.

Terry K

P.S. check this out! Do you have a compression tube inside the mast
where the spreader bolt passes through? I lost an SC22 mast because
there was no such detail included by the manufacturer. 3-1/2" of 1"
i.d. tubing would have saved a bunch of trouble.

Peggie Hall wrote:
, In YOUR area...but not in all. But even storm drains that do empty
directly into the ocean instead of a sewer line do so through pipes that
terminate at least 3 miles offshore (that wasn't always true, but is in
MOST places now),

....Not likely

which is also the minimum distance from shore to
legally dump a tank at sea. So how is dumping a tank down a storm drain
that terminates 3 miles offshore any worse for the environment than
dumping it at sea barely 3 miles offshore?

Yours is just one more example of a "knee jerk" emotional reaction
without any rational reasoning behind it.


First I will detail my "rational reasoning" for anyone who still
can't grasp it; Knee-jerk to follow..
Ever hear of the L.A. River? It is a primary storm drain for the
Los Angeles basin. Serving,what, 8 or 10 million people? And fed by
the storm runoff of thousands of street corners etc. This is typical
of systems statewide and beyond. Rarely will you see storm drains
discharge to an offshore diffuser. The exception being small treatment
districts with large capacity for runoff...nearly non existant. As soon
as the treatment facilities reach capacity during a storm, from their
fractional share of run-off, they discharge directly to the
canals,etc., to prevent the destruction of the pipelines that are meant
to carry waste only..This flows directly into the harbors, river
mouths, and beach outfalls. One of the reasons for this is quite
simple...Runoff carries with it a staggering volume of solid waste and
debris, from trees to refrigerators, trash to
telivisions...literally..treatment plants can't process it, pipelines
can't pass it, pumps can't move it. The only way to deliver the liquid
portion via lift stations and pipelines, is to remove the solids by
building large acreage catch- basins to collect it in.. A house on a
35' by 65' or 70' lot runs over 700k (median).
Now guess how much land is going to be set aside for occasional use
during storms...just above nil. Treated sewage is easily transported
offshore, storm drain runoff simply takes the paths of least reistance
to the sea.
How do I know this? 5 years diving for the USN Underwater
Construction Teams, three more for the Naval Civil Engineering
Laboratory/Ocean Ops and a couple more on contract projects. We built,
repaired, extended, and inspected sewer outfalls and diffusers all over
the world, among other things. Municipalities deliver treated waste
offshore because they are required to, they let runoff take its course
because they don't have the funds or resources to do otherwise, and for
the most part have no regulations requiring offshore delivery...yet.
So I will say it again, nothing should be sent down a storm drain
besides water, yes, animal waste, trash, oil from the roadways etc.
will still end up in the system but that's no reason for people to
contribute to the muck... If your boat was taking on water, you
wouldn't shrug your shoulders, say it was going to sink anyway, then
turn on a garden hose to help fill it... We're supposed to be smarter
than that... The only knee-jerk reactions I have are from the cramps
caused by dysentery contracted through exposure to contaminated runoff
in the harbor...

Peggie Hall wrote:
, In YOUR area...but not in all. But even storm drains that do empty
directly into the ocean instead of a sewer line do so through pipes that
terminate at least 3 miles offshore (that wasn't always true, but is in
MOST places now),

....Not likely

which is also the minimum distance from shore to
legally dump a tank at sea. So how is dumping a tank down a storm drain
that terminates 3 miles offshore any worse for the environment than
dumping it at sea barely 3 miles offshore?

Yours is just one more example of a "knee jerk" emotional reaction
without any rational reasoning behind it.


First I will detail my "rational reasoning" for anyone who still
can't grasp it; Knee-jerk to follow..
Ever hear of the L.A. River? It is a primary storm drain for the
Los Angeles basin. Serving,what, 8 or 10 million people? And fed by
the storm runoff of thousands of street corners etc. This is typical
of systems statewide and beyond. Rarely will you see storm drains
discharge to an offshore diffuser. The exception being small treatment
districts with large capacity for runoff...nearly non existant. As soon
as the treatment facilities reach capacity during a storm, from their
fractional share of run-off, they discharge directly to the
canals,etc., to prevent the destruction of the pipelines that are meant
to carry waste only..This flows directly into the harbors, river
mouths, and beach outfalls. One of the reasons for this is quite
simple...Runoff carries with it a staggering volume of solid waste and
debris, from trees to refrigerators, trash to
telivisions...literally..treatment plants can't process it, pipelines
can't pass it, pumps can't move it. The only way to deliver the liquid
portion via lift stations and pipelines, is to remove the solids by
building large acreage catch- basins to collect it in.. A house on a
35' by 65' or 70' lot runs over 700k (median).
Now guess how much land is going to be set aside for occasional use
during storms...just above nil. Treated sewage is easily transported
offshore, storm drain runoff simply takes the paths of least reistance
to the sea.
How do I know this? 5 years diving for the USN Underwater
Construction Teams, three more for the Naval Civil Engineering
Laboratory/Ocean Ops and a couple more on contract projects. We built,
repaired, extended, and inspected sewer outfalls and diffusers all over
the world, among other things. Municipalities deliver treated waste
offshore because they are required to, they let runoff take its course
because they don't have the funds or resources to do otherwise, and for
the most part have no regulations requiring offshore delivery...yet.
So I will say it again, nothing should be sent down a storm drain
besides water, yes, animal waste, trash, oil from the roadways etc.
will still end up in the system but that's no reason for people to
contribute to the muck... If your boat was taking on water, you
wouldn't shrug your shoulders, say it was going to sink anyway, then
turn on a garden hose to help fill it... We're supposed to be smarter
than that... The only knee-jerk reactions I have are from the cramps
caused by dysentery contracted through exposure to contaminated runoff
in the harbor...