Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a
slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them
around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down
faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing
has shown me.

Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80.
The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The
numbers are the numbers.

Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?

I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if
not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??



That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

Bryan wrote:
Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a
slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them
around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down
faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing
has shown me.

So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially
faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your
point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm.


Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80.
The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The
numbers are the numbers.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep
up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and
F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats.

But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage.
It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew.
And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used
for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily
by 2 people without spilling a drink.

I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for
the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute.



Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat,
such as the PDQ 44?


Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Very doubtful.


Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Bryan wrote:

We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?


I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if
not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??



That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

The original poster asked if a Jeaneau 52 is faster than a Belize 43. The
answer is most likely yes.

We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower boat.
Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind sailing, that
is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point reaching races, the
multi's won. No surprise.

Now, if you compare Mari Cha against Orange I would give the race to Orange.
Those boats are both all out race, not racer cruisers, or cruisers.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock
is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat
them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and
down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years
of racing has shown me.

So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially
faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by
quoting the ratings. Hmmmm.


Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is
80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot.
The numbers are the numbers.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up
with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats
provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats.

But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It
carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its
rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short
handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people
without spilling a drink.

I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the
Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute.



Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such
as the PDQ 44?


Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Very doubtful.


Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Bryan wrote:

We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?


I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast
if not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??



That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

Bryan wrote:
The original poster asked if a Jeaneau 52 is faster than a Belize 43. The
answer is most likely yes.

I was addressing a point you brought up, not the OP's original comparison.


We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower boat.
Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind sailing, that
is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point reaching races, the
multi's won. No surprise.

PHRF ratings are based on round the buoy racing. Assuming the ratings
for the Shock 35 (72?) and the F-27 (25-50) are fair, then the F-27 is
a faster boat in a round the buoy race. If you can consistently race
at 25 to 50 points better than your boat's rating, you're a better
sailor than I. (You probably are anyways, if you race a Shock 35!)

The fact that cruising cats are even roughly the same as monohulls in
phrf ratings implies that the upwind advantage of mono's is not that
great.

Since cruisers have been known to power when going upwind (yes, its
true) its not clear phrf is particularly relevant at all to a cruising
discussion.



Now, if you compare Mari Cha against Orange I would give the race to Orange.
Those boats are both all out race, not racer cruisers, or cruisers.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Bryan wrote:

Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock
is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat
them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and
down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years
of racing has shown me.

So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially
faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by
quoting the ratings. Hmmmm.


Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is
80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot.
The numbers are the numbers.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up
with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats
provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats.

But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It
carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its
rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short
handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people
without spilling a drink.

I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the
Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute.



Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such
as the PDQ 44?


Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Very doubtful.


Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


Bryan wrote:


We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?



I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast
if not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??




That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

Bryan wrote:
We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower
boat. Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind
sailing, that is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point
reaching races, the multi's won. No surprise.


Jeff wrote:
PHRF ratings are based on round the buoy racing. Assuming the ratings
for the Shock 35 (72?) and the F-27 (25-50) are fair,

Are the ratings ever fair?
One of the problems with issuing a single-number handicap
for a light fast boat like a multi or sport boat is that
their performance varies tremendously as conditions vary.
For example, in the 1988 sneak-attack/mismatch catamaran
America's Cup, the big monohull was demonstrably faster than
the cat in light air. This appeared to be the case on all
points of sail including reaches.

I've raced a small sport boat against beach cats, and have
some definite observations along the same lines. The funny
thing is, that while there are some advantages for monos and
some conditions wehre we couold dust them convincingly, a
number of multihull seem to deny reality and insist that
multis are faster just because they just are.


.... then the F-27 is a
faster boat in a round the buoy race. If you can consistently race at
25 to 50 points better than your boat's rating, you're a better sailor
than I. (You probably are anyways, if you race a Shock 35!)


The Antrim 27 rates about the same as the F-27 and they
often beat F-27s, I'm told.


The fact that cruising cats are even roughly the same as monohulls in
phrf ratings implies that the upwind advantage of mono's is not that great.


Agreed. Multihull design has progressed to where they can go
upwind pretty well. And the mono probably has to use a
spinnaker to keep up with or beat the cat (with no
spinnaker) downwind.


Since cruisers have been known to power when going upwind (yes, its
true) its not clear phrf is particularly relevant at all to a cruising
discussion.


I disagree. It's releveant, since it indicates the sailing
performance of the boats... under ideal conditions (remember
PHRF assumes the boat is not loaded for cruising and tuned
up for racing). However it's for sure not the be-all & end-all.

We have a number of friends who cruise to the Bahamas every
year from Beaufort, in a wide variety of boats. The
speedboats (including a 44' fast cat and a J-44) don't seem
to outperform the Island Packet by all that much. Usually
their passage times are all within 24 hours of each other,
often much less.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Jeff you contradict yourself.

You wrote:
Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep
up with a 52 foot boat.

I wrote:
Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

You wrote:
Very doubtful.

Huhh?


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock
is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat
them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and
down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years
of racing has shown me.

So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially
faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by
quoting the ratings. Hmmmm.


Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is
80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot.
The numbers are the numbers.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up
with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats
provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats.

But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It
carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its
rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short
handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people
without spilling a drink.

I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the
Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute.



Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such
as the PDQ 44?


Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Very doubtful.


Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Bryan wrote:

We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?


I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast
if not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??



That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

I meant that the nod would not go to the Jeanneau if the comparison
was to a more modern cat, such as a PDQ 44.


Bryan wrote:
Jeff you contradict yourself.

You wrote:
Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep

up with a 52 foot boat.


I wrote:
Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

You wrote:
Very doubtful.

Huhh?


"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Bryan wrote:

Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock
is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat
them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and
down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years
of racing has shown me.

So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially
faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by
quoting the ratings. Hmmmm.


Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine
Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is
80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot.
The numbers are the numbers.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up
with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats
provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats.

But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It
carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its
rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short
handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people
without spilling a drink.

I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the
Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute.



Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we
see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail
plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about
payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when
cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi.

So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such
as the PDQ 44?


Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau.

Very doubtful.


Bryan

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


Bryan wrote:


We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull
fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the
same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those
multihulls..

So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around
50?



I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast
if not faster than a cruising cat.

Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says
anything about cruising boats??




That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not
boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and
beer in bottles is heavy!

In article ,
"Bryan" wrote:

Let's look at the numbers. snip, a Gemini 105 rates 177.

What region, and are these PHRF or another formula? 177's slow for a
modern 34' monohull.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/