Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:14:55 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


The biggest change, as you have said and I have agreed in backhand,
would be achieved by an increase in stability.


=======================

Racing boats do this all the time by loading up the rail with crew,
and it is very effective. There is a rule of thumb which states that
a pound of weight on the rail is worth two pounds in the keel.
Depends on the boat of course, but crew weight acts on stability
immediately, whereas ballast weight has to be heeled at some angle
first.

That said, flattening the mainsail by any means possible, and pulling
the draft further forward is also very effective at reducing weather
helm.

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.

Gaz

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:03:00 GMT, Gary wrote:

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.
===========================================

I'm aware that Roger is an experienced marine architect but that does
not necessarily make him a sailing expert. I have spent literally
thousands of hours racing keel boats (with some success), so I'm
fairly comfortable discussing what has worked for me. I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

Wayne.B wrote:

I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

I had a lesson once on how much immersed asymmetrical hull
form has to do with it; too much when heeled and there will
be a rounding up force that must be corrected by the rudder.
I took the helm of a cruising folkboat for the first time as
we were clearing the Firth of Forth on the east coast of
Scotland. As we cleared the shelter of the firth a strong NE
wind caused her to bury her rail but I was amazed that the
tiller remained light, responsive and only a tad off central
- a beautifully balanced yacht at any angle of heel.
BrianH.

If you do the silly yacht designer's thing of cutting out the hull
profile and balancing it on a pin you will find that the lead of the
Folkboat isn't much different that vessels with lots of weather helm.
What started this whole sub thread was my not to clearly stated
assertion that it is not fine tuning of the C.E. / C.L.P relationship
that determines helm balance but lots of other factors.

--

Roger Long



"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote:

I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

I had a lesson once on how much immersed asymmetrical hull form has
to do with it; too much when heeled and there will be a rounding up
force that must be corrected by the rudder. I took the helm of a
cruising folkboat for the first time as we were clearing the Firth
of Forth on the east coast of Scotland. As we cleared the shelter of
the firth a strong NE wind caused her to bury her rail but I was
amazed that the tiller remained light, responsive and only a tad off
central - a beautifully balanced yacht at any angle of heel.
BrianH.

Roger Long wrote:
If you do the silly yacht designer's thing of cutting out the hull
profile and balancing it on a pin you will find that the lead of the
Folkboat isn't much different that vessels with lots of weather helm.
What started this whole sub thread was my not to clearly stated
assertion that it is not fine tuning of the C.E. / C.L.P relationship
that determines helm balance but lots of other factors.

The Folkboat is bordering on legendary for its heavy weather handling.
The spin offs (Contessa 26, Marieholm IF, Virtue, Vancouver 27) all
exhibit great seakindliness. Is it any wonder that they seem to be the
smallest boats consistently completing impressive voyages.

I may not be a sailing expert (although I have fooled the British
Government, most of the sail training organizations in the U.S., and
the U.S. Coast Guard into thinking so) but I was very intrigued by the
balance issue in my early years.

The centerboard and rudder comprise just about the whole lateral plane
on a dinghy. If you remove the centerboard from a dinghy with a
hinged board and put in a temporary dagger boat, you can make huge
adjustments in the location of the lateral plane. If you study the
effect on rudder angle under controlled conditions you can learn some
very interesting things.

The racing adjustments you are talking about certainly are real and do
work. The difference is one of perspective. When attempting to eke
out very small increments of performance these small reductions in
rudder angle and helm force are significant. You may even see
yourself picking up enough speed, maybe .03%, to close the angle on
the boat next to you. It's sort of like a lot of sail trim
adjustments. Pulling the Cunningham will speed up a racing boat under
some circumstances but it will not convert a "slow" cruising boat into
a "fast" one.

These small changes observed while racing are not the same thing
though as the differences between boats that are considered to have
weather helm over a broad range of conditions and ones that are
considered well balanced. You are also not changing the crude
geometric C.E. / C.L.P. relationships very much but other critical
aerodynamic aspects of the sail plan that are not considered in the
paper on a pin approach.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:03:00 GMT, Gary
wrote:

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google
Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.
===========================================

I'm aware that Roger is an experienced marine architect but that
does
not necessarily make him a sailing expert. I have spent literally
thousands of hours racing keel boats (with some success), so I'm
fairly comfortable discussing what has worked for me. I think we
all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:03:00 GMT, Gary wrote:


Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.

===========================================

I'm aware that Roger is an experienced marine architect but that does
not necessarily make him a sailing expert. I have spent literally
thousands of hours racing keel boats (with some success), so I'm
fairly comfortable discussing what has worked for me. I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

I agree.