Helmsmanship often has a lot to do with it. Weather helm is very heel
related. Watch closely and you'll see that rudder angle increases with
heel angle. At some point, the helmsman, rudder, or autopilot are
overpowered. Holding grimly to a course or keeping a Windex pinned on
the vane in the gusts as the boat heels way down will greatly
exaggerate the weather helm. Gusts are usually from a slightly
different direction and not recognizing this can also make the helm
feel like it's fighting back harder.

In strong winds find the maximum comfortable angle and one where the
boat feels like it is moving well and fix the angle of the mast
against the horizon in your mind. Then, whenever that angle is
exceeded, let the boat come up. It's somewhat rate based so, if you
are heeling quickly towards that angle, you can start easing up a bit
before your reach it. Sail for the constant heel angle and you won't
be fighting the helm so much. The higher pointing will compensate for
the boat being less powered. Often, the boat will even sail faster
without the rudder dragging and the hull more upright.

Keeping speed up makes a big difference in helm angle. If you let the
boat get slow so you are constantly working to speed up again, the
helm forces will be heavier. I watched the weather helm on our boat
steadily increase towards the end of the summer as the bottom fouled.
Same dynamics. Mental effort devoted to keeping the boat going at
maximum speed will reduce the physical effort of working against the
weather helm.

Most boats going to windward will slow down to a higher speed than
they will speed up to. (You may have to read that a couple of times.)
Ease off a bit to let the boat get really moving and then start slowly
pinching up. If you do it right, the boat will settle at the higher
of the two potential speeds with lower helm force.

The airflow over the sail will remain optimum for a short period at a
higher angle than can be maintained for long. If you keep heading
higher very slowly and gingerly, you can get an additional bit of
course made good to windward with the sails pulling optimally. It
usually will only be part of a minute but those periods of heading
higher can really add up. In a short time, something will trigger the
flow to collapse and some of the drive will go out of the rig. This
will usually be felt rather than seen. In smooth water, you may see a
little hitch of the mast towards upright. If you quickly head off,
you can re-establish the flow before the boat slows down and then
start heading up gingerly again. The clues when you are doing this
successfully are very subtle. Jib tell tales are almost too crude.
The proper course to windward is a slightly scalloped one that takes
advantage of these dynamics.

Some rudder angle is good. It pushes you to windward. Learning to
sail dynamically and with finesse while beating will reduce the
perceived as well as actual weather helm on almost any vessel. It
takes concentration and understanding but will yield as good results
as a lot of the sail recutting and rig tuning people do. It's a lot
cheaper as well.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:53:03 -0500, Larry wrote:

New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her
very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting
to
keep her pointed up.

======================

This may be old news but here are some possible cures for weather
helm:

Flatter sails - more outhaul, backstay, cunningham and halyard
tension, a bit of mast bend if do able, jib leads further aft. Get
a
flattening reef installed in the mainsail.

Reduce sail area and heeling.

Move weight out of the stern to further forward.

Decrease mast rake if any.

Tom--

You probably know all about Westsail 32's. Heavy, full keel, comfortable,
and about as fast as the Budweiser Clydesdales. (Built like them, too.) I
owned one for ten years, dreamed about offshore cruising, and learned too
late I started dreaming too late. (North of septugenarian status now.)
Having discovered, anyway, the difference between a dream and a fantasy, we
sold the boat two years ago and bought a Lord Nelson Victory Tug. You can
go cruising and still be indoors, and in our part of the country (Pacific
NW) that doesn't mean you're a sissy....Had a wonderful 3-month cruise, 2500
miles, to Alaska and back this past summer.

Anyhow, I'm still infatuated with the Westsail, and suggest you have a
look--or another.

Must say, though, Strider is a beauty.

Here's the link to the broker who is selling our old Westsail for the chap
who bought her from us.

Cheers, fair winds, and blue skies to you.


Dick Behan





http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...neservicenter&



"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
newsMbtf.1$WX3.0@trndny09...
After a number of years away from sailing and cruising, I am starting to
get back ... little by little.

Using my past boat ownership experience, three full keel boats. Two were
ok, one was a DOG.

I am looking at different boats on the net. There sure are a lot of boats
for sale.

My criteria: well built ( I don't care how old, just well built ), ocean
worthy, either no engine or a diesel engine [ please don't tell me that a
35 year old Atomic 4 is fine, all you need to do it keep them
maintained ], a conservative design [ I plan on cruising not racing ], and
big enough to sail anywhere but small enough to sail alone.

That is the question; what size? I want to have my family out with me
but if they are busy or don't care to go or if I take off for an extended
trip .......... what size sailboat [ I shudder at the term yacht ] would
be just about right for a single hander?

Here are a few of the boats I have looked at over the last few days. A
Pearson 35 [ built late 60's and one built early 70's ], and Albin Ballad
[ built 1976, Sweden? .. 29'something "'s .. not that heavy .. has fin
keel ...spade rudder ?? ... ], and a whole bunch of boats like this.

What do you experts think... if you aren't an expert and have an
opinion... that is even better.

"Roger Long" wrote in news:Vzotf.47139$XJ5.41709
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

Helmsmanship often has a lot to do with it.

In the Amel, I think design has a lot to do with it, too. The mainmast is
15 ft from the bow, way forward. The mizzen seems to be too small to
compensate for the thrust forward of the vertical axis. It makes little
difference whether the mizzen is furled or not. Speed changes little and
weather helm changes little doing anything with the mizzen.

moving the mast with the backstay jack doesn't change much, either.

So, we just unpower it, lowering the heel as suggested. It isn't going to
go over 8 knots, anyway... I saw almost 9 on it one time and commented to
the cap'n she was gonna plane any minute...(c;

"R.W. Behan" wrote in
om:

a Lord Nelson Victory Tug

Now THERE's a beautiful boat.

In SC, being cold isn't an issue. Victory Tug owners have two air
conditioners...(c;

Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business
was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific. The fact that
you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm
angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners
with 10% negative lead and they sail fine.

Mainsail shape is more of an issue as a tight leach is a huge trim
tab. The primary source of weather helm is the fact that, while
heeled, the drag of the hull is over here and the drive of the sails
is way out there. To go to windward, the hull must make leeway which
means there is sideways flow on the rudder. Unless it has way too much
balance, it is going to have pressure on it.

--

Roger Long

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:53:03 -0500, Larry wrote:


New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her
very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting to
keep her pointed up.


======================

This may be old news but here are some possible cures for weather
helm:

Flatter sails - more outhaul, backstay, cunningham and halyard
tension, a bit of mast bend if do able, jib leads further aft. Get a
flattening reef installed in the mainsail.

Reduce sail area and heeling.

Move weight out of the stern to further forward.

Decrease mast rake if any.


I think the first job is to get the boat level. That is normally the
cause. If the boat has weather helm when level then there is some thing
wrong with the setup.
Modern big ass boats get weather helm as they heel and nose down.

Gaz

"Gary" wrote I think the first job is to get
the boat level. That is normally the
cause.

Maybe in a dinghy where you can shift the weight. In a keelboat, heel
is directly proportional to power going to windward. No heel, no
drive. At some point, the side effects of heel begin to slow the boat
down. Finding the optimum angle, not just keeping the boat as flat as
possible is the objective.

Lot's of pressure on the helm is not necessarily bad as far as boat
speed is concerned. That pressure is directly against leeway.
Perfect helm balance might be nice for helmsman but may not produce
the fastest boat to windward.

I find lee helm in light air a real pain but it's usually the price of
a very light helm when it breezes up.

--
Roger Long

Wow. this is dumb.

Roger Long wrote:
Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business
was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific.
And the world is flat!
The fact that
you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm
angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners
with 10% negative lead and they sail fine.
I can't even sail my ketch to windward without the mizzen and I can't
fall off the wind without headsails set. Same with my sloop, if I take
down the main it won't point as high. There goes that theory!

Mainsail shape is more of an issue as a tight leach is a huge trim
tab.
The entire main is a trim tab on a masthead sloop. On a ketch or yawl
the mizzen is the trim tab. Mainsail shape and size is critical (which
blows your previous comment away again.
The primary source of weather helm is the fact that, while
heeled, the drag of the hull is over here and the drive of the sails
is way out there.
That is correct score one point.
To go to windward, the hull must make leeway
Wrong. The idea is to minimize leeway. More leeway equals less
distance to windward.
which
means there is sideways flow on the rudder.
The flow is only sideways in a very poorly designed boat. Boats wants
to go pointy end first. The flow across the rudder and keel have a
slight angular component but that gives "lift" hydrodynamically.

Unless it has way too much
balance, it is going to have pressure on it.

This had to be a troll........

Roger Long wrote:
"Gary" wrote I think the first job is to get
the boat level. That is normally the

cause.


Maybe in a dinghy where you can shift the weight. In a keelboat, heel
is directly proportional to power going to windward. No heel, no
drive.
BS, that is why race boats out everyone on the windward rail......to
flatten the boat. If it heels too much you get weather helm and spill
wind. All the foils (above and below the waterline) get inefficient.
Look at multihulls.
At some point, the side effects of heel begin to slow the boat
down. Finding the optimum angle, not just keeping the boat as flat as
possible is the objective.
The optimum angle is usually pretty close to flat.

Lot's of pressure on the helm is not necessarily bad as far as boat
speed is concerned.
Of course it is.
That pressure is directly against leeway.
Perfect helm balance might be nice for helmsman but may not produce
the fastest boat to windward.
Wrong. Efficiency, by definition, is minimizing pressures that slow the
boat (like leeway.)

I find lee helm in light air a real pain but it's usually the price of
a very light helm when it breezes up.

"Gary" wrote

Wow. this is dumb.
Sorry. I shouldn't have shot my mouth off, even if this is a
newsgroup. Since you seem to know what you are talking about, would
you please help me understand some of this stuff better?


First, a clarification: I didn't mean that you can't unbalance a sail
plan to the point that the vessel becomes uncontrollable, just that
most vessels tolerate much larger shifts than yacht designers obsess
about when they are balancing paper cut outs of the underbody on a
pin. Some vessels tolerate these shifts, which do create small
differences in rudder angle and helm force, better than others. I'm
sorry to hear about the handling problems with your ketch.

Now my questions:

Putting aside a few dinghies with jibing centerboards and some older
racing boats with keel trim tabs, the angle of attack of the
symmetrical foil that is keel or centerboard is exactly fixed by the
hull's motion through the water. Anyone can look at a boat hull and
figure out that it will go more easily through the water straight than
with the flow at an angle. Minimizing leeway certainly is a key both
to speed and making as high a course to windward as possible.

You say:

The flow across the rudder and keel have a slight angular component
but that gives "lift" hydrodynamically.


I would very much like to know where this angular component comes from
because I've clearly been missing something all these years. I've been
producing the angle of attack necessary to create the lift to that is
the opposite force vector to the sails by letting the hull go through
the water at a slight angle. Your way is clearly better because of the
lower drag. Please tell me how to do it.


In your other response, you said:

The optimum (heel) angle is usually pretty close to flat.

When I'm sailing my 32 foot boat alone, my weight does not effect heel
noticeably. I scooch as far up on the coaming as I can and stretch
lifelines out with my back but it doesn't seem to help much. On the
135 foot schooner I sailed to Bermuda on a couple of times, people
were too busy with classes, sleeping off watch, and other things. The
captain looked at me kind of funny when I asked if everyone could come
out and sit on the rail for me.

Most of the sailing I've done in boats big enough to sleep in has not
provided the opportunity to shift any significant weight. The only way
to reduce heel is to reef, ease sheets, or head up. I've always done
this just enough to get the heel down to the angle that the boat seems
to move fastest at. When I reduce the heel further, the boats I sail
have always slowed down. Heading up too much in strong breezes before
I got a little more helm time under my belt would sometimes result in
their slowing down so much that loss of water flow over the rudder
would lead to going out of control.

Clearly, I've been missing something all these years. I suspect it is
connected to my confusion about leeway. I'm sure that, after you
explain how to create the side force at zero angle of attack, I'll be
able to learn how to head up or reduce sail enough that there is
almost no heel. The hull will then be in minimum drag configuration,
symmetrical and going straight through the water, and the boat should
just fly.

I can't wait until next summer to try this out but first, you've got
to tell me what I've been doing wrong.

--Roger Long










































--

Roger Long