On 30 Dec 2005 09:26:04 -0800, wrote:
From the advice that I've received on this forum I would
gather that based on the assumed experience of the posters that the C&C
33 is certainly capable of crossing the Atlantic, pending all systems
have been upgraded.

Yes. Despite my extensive criticisms, that is likely the case.


This being said, allow me to post another
question. What would likely be the points of failure on the C&C 33
were it to encounter boarding seas and squalls. I need to know what
systems will require the most attention.

If the C&C has been raced on the Great Lakes (which is likely), you're
going to have a different list than if it's been sailing inshore in
salt water.

The balsa core deck is probably delaminated in spots, and will require
repair. How to do that is in the archives at least a dozen times. Also
consider putting 1/4" aluminum backing plates and on rebedding ALL
deck gear, not just winches.

You should also grind and retab all suspicious bulkheads...beef 'em
up. You should also remove all chainplates, replace all original
through-bolts (30 years old?) and rebed everything.

You will want to have ALL standing rigging, particularly if original,
examined closely and dye-tested/X-rayed for stress by a professional
rigger. If it's been in salt and is original, don't even think of not
having everything replaced. A rig failure at sea can kill you and a
lot of that rigging could be cracked microscopically or
"work-hardened" to the point of fatigue/failure. Consider upping the
wire dimensions to at least 1/4" or even 5/16" all around...it could
be 7/32" at the moment. Consider wire terminals you can replace
yourself (Nicro? can't remember which one use the hand tool) while
underway, and have the best of your old stays rigged as a
forestay/backstay spare. Replace the original sheaves and sheave box
(if you get all rope halyards, this will have to happen anyway)...the
difference in ease of hauling will impress you. Rewire the mast and
consider LED nav lights for the low power draw (means less engine time
to charge the batts). Rig at least one external block at the masthead
both fore and aft should the internal runs be fouled. Figure the best
way to ascend the mast solo in a seaway. Inspect and repair your mast
step...the wooden stringers in the bilges and the floors tend to rot.

The good news is that the original C&C masts were beefy enough to live
50 years. Just inspect and service.

Break down all winches and service. This means taking them apart. Do
not attempt over water G. Carry spare pawls and springs, and if you
can get self-tailers reasonably, do so. If they are bigger than you
think you need, so much the better.

Inspect and consider replacing all running rigging if not less than
five seasons old. A real advance is Spectra running rigging over
wire/rope for more strength/less

Have all sail inspected and leave behind what's dubious. Your main
will probably be OK with just a third set of reef points, but you'll
want a bulletproof No. 3 and a bulletproof No. 4/storm jib. Given the
J of the C&C 33, I would NOT recommend a furler. I would recommend
hank-ons for the Atlantic, because the Atlantic is frequently about
reducing sail, and a 1/3 unfurled yankee-cut is damn near useless
compared to a No. 3 on a reach. Bring at least one whisker pole and an
asymmetrical spin for light air downwind work. Trans-atlantic south
and north routes are very different in this respect, so ask around.

Rig beefy preventers. Some favour these rigged forward, others to the
toerail. Given the short boom of the C&C 33, ask around and see what
works.

Rig jacklines either side. Get a harness and WEAR IT and SNAP ON. Rig
higher lifelines, or thread shock cord as a "webbing" to the typical
24" stanchions (which should be back-plated and bedded, not just left
with the usual fender washers). Trail a "hail mary" poly line aft with
a float...if you DO fall over, you'll have a shot at getting back
aboard.

Rig some sort of self-steering. A vane makes sense on this type of
sloop. Voyager Windvanes in St. Catharines, ON, makes very nice models
I've seen on plenty of C&Cs...

As to structural issues, the biggest ones are probably making the big
locker lids watertight (or watertighter) and increasing the size of
the lame scuppers in the cockpit, particularly if your engine controls
are on the port side locker near the sole. You want to get water OUT
quickly, and bigger-than-original scuppers in the cockpit are going to
do a better job. This will take some doing on a C&C 33, given that
you'll have to route the scupper hose through the engine compartment,
but it's tight quarters.

The biggest thing to do safety is to beef up the portlights,
which are too big and weak to take a serious sea, in my opinion, and
which need storm shutters. Same thoughts on the companionway hatch and
drop boards, which are, in my opinion, strictly inshore in design and
ability to keep the ocean out. At the very least, you need positive
locking so that you can seal yourself IN and if the boat rolls, your
hatch and boards won't fly open and sink you. Same with the cabin
sole...you want those latched shut so that they don't fly loose at the
worst time. Same with your ground tackle and your engine compartment
and your saloon cabinetry...which in the C&C is just sliding plastic
panels, as I recall.

Sorry it's a long list (and I'll stop it here!), but while the C&C can
be *made* an offshore boat, it wasn't sold as such, and the equipment
and design choices reflect that it's essentially a
freshwater/coastal/Caribbean cruiser-racer made for short passages.
There are people who've taken C&C 41s and 38s and even modified 35s
around the world...so we know it can be done...but a 33 across the
Atlantic in a safe and seamanlike fashion, by which I mean prudence
tempered by experience, is going to take a fair bit of retrofitting.
Because it isn't the sea that would kill you or the boat...it's the
flying tin of beans you were unable to secure in the 33's open galley,
or the water you couldn't pump out of the shallow bilge because of the
dripping decks...etc. To make these things right won't necessarily
cost lots of money, but a few hundred hours, minimum.

Good luck,
R.

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On 30 Dec 2005 09:26:04 -0800, wrote:
From the advice that I've received on this forum I would
gather that based on the assumed experience of the posters that the C&C
33 is certainly capable of crossing the Atlantic, pending all systems
have been upgraded.

Yes. Despite my extensive criticisms, that is likely the case.


This being said, allow me to post another
question. What would likely be the points of failure on the C&C 33
were it to encounter boarding seas and squalls. I need to know what
systems will require the most attention.

If the C&C has been raced on the Great Lakes (which is likely), you're
going to have a different list than if it's been sailing inshore in
salt water.

The balsa core deck is probably delaminated in spots, and will require
repair. How to do that is in the archives at least a dozen times. Also
consider putting 1/4" aluminum backing plates and on rebedding ALL
deck gear, not just winches.

You should also grind and retab all suspicious bulkheads...beef 'em
up. You should also remove all chainplates, replace all original
through-bolts (30 years old?) and rebed everything.

You will want to have ALL standing rigging, particularly if original,
examined closely and dye-tested/X-rayed for stress by a professional
rigger. If it's been in salt and is original, don't even think of not
having everything replaced. A rig failure at sea can kill you and a
lot of that rigging could be cracked microscopically or
"work-hardened" to the point of fatigue/failure. Consider upping the
wire dimensions to at least 1/4" or even 5/16" all around...it could
be 7/32" at the moment. Consider wire terminals you can replace
yourself (Nicro? can't remember which one use the hand tool) while
underway, and have the best of your old stays rigged as a
forestay/backstay spare. Replace the original sheaves and sheave box
(if you get all rope halyards, this will have to happen anyway)...the
difference in ease of hauling will impress you. Rewire the mast and
consider LED nav lights for the low power draw (means less engine time
to charge the batts). Rig at least one external block at the masthead
both fore and aft should the internal runs be fouled. Figure the best
way to ascend the mast solo in a seaway. Inspect and repair your mast
step...the wooden stringers in the bilges and the floors tend to rot.

The good news is that the original C&C masts were beefy enough to live
50 years. Just inspect and service.

Break down all winches and service. This means taking them apart. Do
not attempt over water G. Carry spare pawls and springs, and if you
can get self-tailers reasonably, do so. If they are bigger than you
think you need, so much the better.

Inspect and consider replacing all running rigging if not less than
five seasons old. A real advance is Spectra running rigging over
wire/rope for more strength/less

Have all sail inspected and leave behind what's dubious. Your main
will probably be OK with just a third set of reef points, but you'll
want a bulletproof No. 3 and a bulletproof No. 4/storm jib. Given the
J of the C&C 33, I would NOT recommend a furler. I would recommend
hank-ons for the Atlantic, because the Atlantic is frequently about
reducing sail, and a 1/3 unfurled yankee-cut is damn near useless
compared to a No. 3 on a reach. Bring at least one whisker pole and an
asymmetrical spin for light air downwind work. Trans-atlantic south
and north routes are very different in this respect, so ask around.

Rig beefy preventers. Some favour these rigged forward, others to the
toerail. Given the short boom of the C&C 33, ask around and see what
works.

Rig jacklines either side. Get a harness and WEAR IT and SNAP ON. Rig
higher lifelines, or thread shock cord as a "webbing" to the typical
24" stanchions (which should be back-plated and bedded, not just left
with the usual fender washers). Trail a "hail mary" poly line aft with
a float...if you DO fall over, you'll have a shot at getting back
aboard.

Rig some sort of self-steering. A vane makes sense on this type of
sloop. Voyager Windvanes in St. Catharines, ON, makes very nice models
I've seen on plenty of C&Cs...

As to structural issues, the biggest ones are probably making the big
locker lids watertight (or watertighter) and increasing the size of
the lame scuppers in the cockpit, particularly if your engine controls
are on the port side locker near the sole. You want to get water OUT
quickly, and bigger-than-original scuppers in the cockpit are going to
do a better job. This will take some doing on a C&C 33, given that
you'll have to route the scupper hose through the engine compartment,
but it's tight quarters.

The biggest thing to do safety is to beef up the portlights,
which are too big and weak to take a serious sea, in my opinion, and
which need storm shutters. Same thoughts on the companionway hatch and
drop boards, which are, in my opinion, strictly inshore in design and
ability to keep the ocean out. At the very least, you need positive
locking so that you can seal yourself IN and if the boat rolls, your
hatch and boards won't fly open and sink you. Same with the cabin
sole...you want those latched shut so that they don't fly loose at the
worst time. Same with your ground tackle and your engine compartment
and your saloon cabinetry...which in the C&C is just sliding plastic
panels, as I recall.

Sorry it's a long list (and I'll stop it here!), but while the C&C can
be *made* an offshore boat, it wasn't sold as such, and the equipment
and design choices reflect that it's essentially a
freshwater/coastal/Caribbean cruiser-racer made for short passages.
There are people who've taken C&C 41s and 38s and even modified 35s
around the world...so we know it can be done...but a 33 across the
Atlantic in a safe and seamanlike fashion, by which I mean prudence
tempered by experience, is going to take a fair bit of retrofitting.
Because it isn't the sea that would kill you or the boat...it's the
flying tin of beans you were unable to secure in the 33's open galley,
or the water you couldn't pump out of the shallow bilge because of the
dripping decks...etc. To make these things right won't necessarily
cost lots of money, but a few hundred hours, minimum.

Good luck,

Not that I would regularly quote Ted Turner, but didn't he say that the Mac
was one of the worst races (in terms of conditions) that he ever
participated in?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 11:30:55 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Not that I would regularly quote Ted Turner, but didn't he say that the Mac
was one of the worst races (in terms of conditions) that he ever
participated in?

If you mean the northern Lake Michigan race, and if he was sailing a
ULDB, then sure. The Great Lakes in a mood can throw very severe
conditions at a smaller boat, and even for Lakemax (740-odd feet)
tankers and freighter, certain spots and certain conditions can snap
'em in half. Even "small" Lake Ontario kills people in "seaworthy"
boats every year.

But the Great Lakes are rarely stormy for long, and the worst of the
storms are not sustained. An Atlantic gale can surround a boat for
four or five days if it's slow moving or part of a train of
depressions. At least on the Great Lakes, you have a reasonable
expectation of seeing a heavy squall pass through quickly. Even stuff
spun off hurricanes will move off in a day.

That's why sailing on the Great Lakes in crap weather is good
training, or so the sal****er boys tell me. Three hours of 40 knots
and "square" 10 foot lake waves is like a day of 40 knot, 15 foot
Atlantic rollers, because the period is a lot longer and the boat gets
bashed in many situations with fewer wrenching motions.

I was out in six to eight foot waves and 30-35 knots out of the east
(long fetch for here) in mid-October and we had a hell of ride down to
Toronto. That's why my caution isn't so much about the *hull* of the
C&C as about other stuff. We took a wave aft that put about six inches
in the cockpit, and it didn't drain as fast as I would have liked,
despite the scuppers being open and clear. Had it been three times as
much, the engine panel would've likely shorted and the stern would
have squatted and the lockers would've let water below.

Such were the compromises in making a lake/inshore racer in the '70s.
Such would be the concerns of taking such a boat across the pond
today.

R.

I was out in six to eight foot waves and 30-35 knots out of the east
(long fetch for here) in mid-October and we had a hell of ride down to
Toronto.

Six to eight foot waves are commonplace on the Atlantic, and are to be
expected any time the wind blows 15 kts or more for over a few hours
time. They are not gentle rollers either. The REALLY nasty stuff
(over 20 feet) happens with winds over 35 kts for a day or so.

The ocean pilot charts used to list the percentage of time that gale
force winds could be expected for any given location and month. I'm
not sure if they are still available or not, but there are no months
when the probability is zero.

In article .com,
wrote:

Six to eight foot waves are commonplace on the Atlantic, and are to be
expected any time the wind blows 15 kts or more for over a few hours
time. They are not gentle rollers either. The REALLY nasty stuff
(over 20 feet) happens with winds over 35 kts for a day or so.

rant

Why does it seem everyone is so obsessed with withstanding "perfect"
storms?

Sorry, but 15 knots in open ocean is pretty much perfect conditions. The
waves and swells are LONG.

In my home waters, 25-30 knots is a BAD time to be out and sometimes 15
can be nasty, but my admittedly limited experience in the Atlantic off
of the BVIs during the Christmas winds tells me that a properly reefed
boat isn't going to have any problems at all in those conditions. Hell,
Xan will gobble up those conditions for a light snack and ask for more.
Yeah, I'm going to stay out of the Gulf Stream during a northerly, but
that's a short part of the "pond' jump.

The numerous circumnavigation logs I've studied also tell me that they
most often want MORE sail due to light winds. A Chesapeake summer squall
is far worse than conservative cruisers ever see on the water.

/rant


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

A Chesapeake summer squall
is far worse than conservative cruisers ever see on the water.

Not to take anything away from a Chesapeake squall, but we are talking
about crossing the North Atlantic, not conservative cruising. You've
got to be able to take whatever comes along for 3 or 4 weeks, and even
in June/July, the probability of making it all the way across without
seeing some wind in the 30s is very low. Worse yet is the probability
of seeing it sustained for a couple of days. The nice thing about
squalls is that they are over in 20 or 30 minutes.

On 1 Jan 2006 17:51:37 -0800, wrote:

I was out in six to eight foot waves and 30-35 knots out of the east
(long fetch for here) in mid-October and we had a hell of ride down to
Toronto.

Six to eight foot waves are commonplace on the Atlantic, and are to be
expected any time the wind blows 15 kts or more for over a few hours
time. They are not gentle rollers either. The REALLY nasty stuff
(over 20 feet) happens with winds over 35 kts for a day or so.

Exactly. My boat would survive days of that, but the crew would get
bashed. Hence...it's on a restricted salt intake.

R.