I have a cutter rigged Bruce Roberts 53, who's working sails comprise a main
sail, stay sail and yankee both on piston hanks. Once the wind reaches f3/4
she sails well, but struggles in light winds, so I'm planning on buying a
genoa. I like the simplicity of a no1 genoa with piston hanks, but it would
be a sail of about 1000sqft and weight in the region of 35kg (75lbs), which
could be a bit of a struggle when short handed. The alternative is to fit a
roller furling/reefing genoa, that would have the advantage of easier
handling but I would be giving up the yankee, and unless I also did away
with the staysail, or put it on a removable stay, it would be difficult
tack. I have had suggestions of twin forestays etc, but I like to keep
things simple. Is it unrealistic to think one person could handle a 1000sqft
headsail in light ish winds. She is fitted with Lewmar 65 winches and the
headsail could drop into a turtle type sail bag, but I know 500sqft is often
quoted as the largest easily handled sail. I'd appreciate any
experience/opinions.
Thanks and seasons greeting to all

www.jassira.com

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 11:54:04 -0000, "Nigel"
wrote:

I have a cutter rigged Bruce Roberts 53, who's working sails comprise a main
sail, stay sail and yankee both on piston hanks. Once the wind reaches f3/4
she sails well, but struggles in light winds, so I'm planning on buying a
genoa. I like the simplicity of a no1 genoa with piston hanks, but it would
be a sail of about 1000sqft and weight in the region of 35kg (75lbs), which
could be a bit of a struggle when short handed. The alternative is to fit a
roller furling/reefing genoa, that would have the advantage of easier
handling but I would be giving up the yankee, and unless I also did away
with the staysail, or put it on a removable stay, it would be difficult
tack. I have had suggestions of twin forestays etc, but I like to keep
things simple. Is it unrealistic to think one person could handle a 1000sqft
headsail in light ish winds. She is fitted with Lewmar 65 winches and the
headsail could drop into a turtle type sail bag, but I know 500sqft is often
quoted as the largest easily handled sail. I'd appreciate any
experience/opinions.
Thanks and seasons greeting to all

www.jassira.com

This depends a great deal on your own level of fitness and your safety
practices, not to mention the way in which you sail. A 53 foot Roberts
is a large boat to be handling singly, and while I understand your
desire to improve light-air performance, you are never going to have
in that boat a vessel that glides over the calm sea like a racer does.

If you are a daysailer, I would say to go for furling, as the chance
of mechanical failure and the potential loss of your staysail outweigh
the difficulty of handing a giant No. 1, never mind stowing it, solo.

But if you do long-distance passagemaking, you might be better off
sticking with the tried and true set-up, and maybe getting a Code Zero
or an asymmetrical spinnaker that can be "socked" for downwind work.
In distance work, especially solo on a big boat in a non-race
situation, the point is to arrive alive, and hank-ons on a 53 foot
cutter sailed solo are likely safer (broken up sail plan vs. one giant
genoa) in the long run.

The easiest idea would be to bring along crew, I suppose, so two of
you can handle a big genoa quickly if the wind pipes up and you have
to douse. You'll want to consider a genoa downhaul to at least get it
on the deck. Having blown out a No, 1 due to getting surprised by
gusts when rounding a headland, I recommend them.

R.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 11:54:04 -0000, "Nigel"
wrote:
I have a cutter rigged Bruce Roberts 53, who's working sails comprise a main
sail, stay sail and yankee both on piston hanks. Once the wind reaches f3/4
she sails well, but struggles in light winds, so I'm planning on buying a
genoa. I like the simplicity of a no1 genoa with piston hanks, but it would
be a sail of about 1000sqft and weight in the region of 35kg (75lbs), which
could be a bit of a struggle when short handed. The alternative is to fit a
roller furling/reefing genoa, that would have the advantage of easier
handling but I would be giving up the yankee, and unless I also did away
with the staysail, or put it on a removable stay, it would be difficult
tack. I have had suggestions of twin forestays etc, but I like to keep
things simple. Is it unrealistic to think one person could handle a 1000sqft
headsail in light ish winds. She is fitted with Lewmar 65 winches and the
headsail could drop into a turtle type sail bag, but I know 500sqft is often
quoted as the largest easily handled sail. I'd appreciate any
experience/opinions.
Thanks and seasons greeting to all

www.jassira.com

================================================== =====

A sail that large will definitely require a roller furler in my
opinion. Even if you put it up in light air when it is easy to
handle, there will come a time when you need to get it down with the
wind blowing and it will be very difficult. 35 kg is also a lot of
weight, and it will be twice as heavy when wet which will happen.

On a boat that large I'd be inclined to go with twin furlers, one
forward for the genoa, and one further aft for a heavy weather jib.
That's a pretty common setup on large cruising boats. Tacking the
genoa is difficult when fully extended but if you roll it up part way
prior to the tack, much easier.

For versatility and without removing your 'tried and true / bombproof"
hank-on set up consider to add or change your configuration to a
"solent" configuration' with an added solent stay attached to a
releaseable lever connection at the stem head or bowsprit cranse.

Nothing beats a hank on set of sails for heavy weather. A solent stay
for the genoa, with the genoa cut for extra luff sag, and added just
behind the jibstay and well in front of the forestay would add the
versatility for light winds without sacrificing the strength needed for
'wahoooooo' higher wind ranges. On such a solent stay arrangment with
furler you could build or have built a genoa in a radial configuration
with much lighter weight cloth at the luff portion and normal heavier
cloth at the leech section .... for good shape in the lower wind ranges
and the added strength needed for the higher wind ranges when only the
mid and aft sections would be exposed (partially furled/reefed). Since
such a sail is not carried aloft nor stored on a furler for long
periods (UV damage) you can consider one of the newer lighter weight
high tech sail cloths. The only 'problem' with a forward mounted
solent stay is that it requires you to gybe the genoa 'forward around'
the solent stay in all maneuvers including tacking (by gybing through
270 degrees) or the luff shape will be fouled by the permanently
attached jibstay. Proper rig tension and its proper set-up and being
able to make on-the-fly adjustments can become an issue - but if you
are already flying a yankee on a jibstay with a staysail under, you
(should) already know this.

With 'just' roller furling gear on the jibstay one usually doesnt
'bother' to change sails (from genoa to yankee or yankee to genoa) ...
and then you simply muddle along with just a stay'sl up ... and suffer.
Changing a large genoa onto or off of a foil is not a pleasant
experience, especially if it is sodden and heavy. A solent stay system
gives you instant 'versatility' but does add a bit of windage.

There are some 'nifty' spinnaker roller furling systems that are now
beginning to make thier appearance and are completely REMOVABLE when
not in use and lowered. They reduce the detriment of 'windage' in
comparison to roller furled sails when not in use. Such systems, if
over time prove reliable, will replace those pain-in-the-ass 'socks and
chute scoops". An example of such is:
http://www.rollgen.com/pdf/rollgen_e.pdf Such systems are useful for
large light weight drifters through very deeply shaped down wind
asymmetrical spinnakers. With flat cut close reaching and 'pointing'
sails there will be a need to increase the luff or halyard tensions to
get any decent shape out of the sail. If you have an extra large
winch, that would be the means to adequately control luff tension if
the sail's tack (corner) is flown from a tack line.

Yankee .... probably a worthless sail overall. The center of effort is
too high (causes excess heel) ..... hard to 'match shape' with a staysl
(unless the staysl has a VERY rounded entry and a very flat aft
section) ... by extreme stays'l halyard tension. The greater the
overlap with the staysl the LESS efficiency of the yankee-staysl
combination. Probably better to fly a blade-jib with a flat staysl
under .... for less heel, more forward thrust (more exposed leech) and
better control when too much wind ... as the sail will not become so
unstable when 'feathering or when 'blade-ing up'.

Hope this helps.




In article , Nigel
wrote:

I have a cutter rigged Bruce Roberts 53, who's working sails comprise a main
sail, stay sail and yankee both on piston hanks. Once the wind reaches f3/4
she sails well, but struggles in light winds, so I'm planning on buying a
genoa. I like the simplicity of a no1 genoa with piston hanks, but it would
be a sail of about 1000sqft and weight in the region of 35kg (75lbs), which
could be a bit of a struggle when short handed. The alternative is to fit a
roller furling/reefing genoa, that would have the advantage of easier
handling but I would be giving up the yankee, and unless I also did away
with the staysail, or put it on a removable stay, it would be difficult
tack. I have had suggestions of twin forestays etc, but I like to keep
things simple. Is it unrealistic to think one person could handle a 1000sqft
headsail in light ish winds. She is fitted with Lewmar 65 winches and the
headsail could drop into a turtle type sail bag, but I know 500sqft is often
quoted as the largest easily handled sail. I'd appreciate any
experience/opinions.
Thanks and seasons greeting to all

www.jassira.com

Rich Hampel wrote:
For versatility and without removing your 'tried and true / bombproof"
hank-on set up consider to add or change your configuration to a
"solent" configuration' with an added solent stay attached to a
releaseable lever connection at the stem head or bowsprit cranse.

Nothing beats a hank on set of sails for heavy weather. A solent stay
for the genoa, with the genoa cut for extra luff sag, and added just
behind the jibstay and well in front of the forestay would add the
versatility for light winds without sacrificing the strength needed for
'wahoooooo' higher wind ranges. On such a solent stay arrangment with
furler you could build or have built a genoa in a radial configuration
with much lighter weight cloth at the luff portion and normal heavier
cloth at the leech section .... for good shape in the lower wind ranges
and the added strength needed for the higher wind ranges when only the
mid and aft sections would be exposed (partially furled/reefed). Since
such a sail is not carried aloft nor stored on a furler for long
periods (UV damage) you can consider one of the newer lighter weight
high tech sail cloths. The only 'problem' with a forward mounted
solent stay is that it requires you to gybe the genoa 'forward around'
the solent stay in all maneuvers including tacking (by gybing through
270 degrees) or the luff shape will be fouled by the permanently
attached jibstay.
If the solent stay is behind the jibstay (above) then you can't gybe it.
It has to go through the solent/forestay slot.
Proper rig tension and its proper set-up and being
able to make on-the-fly adjustments can become an issue - but if you
are already flying a yankee on a jibstay with a staysail under, you
(should) already know this.

With 'just' roller furling gear on the jibstay one usually doesnt
'bother' to change sails (from genoa to yankee or yankee to genoa) ...
and then you simply muddle along with just a stay'sl up ... and suffer.
Changing a large genoa onto or off of a foil is not a pleasant
experience, especially if it is sodden and heavy. A solent stay system
gives you instant 'versatility' but does add a bit of windage.

There are some 'nifty' spinnaker roller furling systems that are now
beginning to make thier appearance and are completely REMOVABLE when
not in use and lowered. They reduce the detriment of 'windage' in
comparison to roller furled sails when not in use. Such systems, if
over time prove reliable, will replace those pain-in-the-ass 'socks and
chute scoops". An example of such is:
http://www.rollgen.com/pdf/rollgen_e.pdf Such systems are useful for
large light weight drifters through very deeply shaped down wind
asymmetrical spinnakers. With flat cut close reaching and 'pointing'
sails there will be a need to increase the luff or halyard tensions to
get any decent shape out of the sail. If you have an extra large
winch, that would be the means to adequately control luff tension if
the sail's tack (corner) is flown from a tack line.
These code zero furlers are proven by the multihull and open 60s etc as
being reliable and efficient. I have one with a windseeker/drifter and
it works a treat

Yankee .... probably a worthless sail overall. The center of effort is
too high (causes excess heel) ..... hard to 'match shape' with a staysl
(unless the staysl has a VERY rounded entry and a very flat aft
section) ... by extreme stays'l halyard tension. The greater the
overlap with the staysl the LESS efficiency of the yankee-staysl
combination.
Not a worthless sail on a big boat. just think of it as a high clewed
100 percent jib. I love it.
Probably better to fly a blade-jib with a flat staysl
under .... for less heel, more forward thrust (more exposed leech) and
better control when too much wind ... as the sail will not become so
unstable when 'feathering or when 'blade-ing up'.

Hope this helps.
I have the twin headstay rig with a inner stay. Our boat has the genoa
on one and the yankee on the other (hanked on) and a staysail (jumbo) on
the inner. It gives us max flex with minimum work. We can fly them in
any combination. Tacking the genoa is always a pain. I would like to
put the staysail on a slip so I can get it out of the way but I worry
about the old wooden mast.

Our windseeker/drifter is on a code zero furler that we fly from the end
of the bowsprit. We furl it to tack it. It works a charm also. Much
better than the genny in light airs 10 knots.

Tacking a large genoa though the 'slot' between forstay and jibstay is
a breeze if
1. the staysail is on a boom and able to be 'restrained' on the
traveller until the genoa goes 'around'
2. you use a tricing line - a line from the cockpit to a block at the
stemhead or bowsprit cranse then back to a 'patch' at about 70% LP
along the foot (or all the way to the clew) .... when needing to tack,
pull the tricing line and the clew of the genoa gets pulled forward
enough to 'bunch' the genoa so that it easily passes between the
forestay and jibstay. The AC boats of the 70s and 80s used tricing
lines on the large genoas to get the genoa around and across the large
baby stays used on these boats - just a large 'jerk' on the trice line
and the clew shoots forward, the sail bunches momentarily and falls
through the 'slot' .... works very well on a cutter rig with staysail.
Just use thin 'slippery' line .... or use the same line that you
already use for the tack line of an Asymmetrical Spinn.




In article HXDrf.178527$ki.112361@pd7tw2no, Gary
wrote:

Rich Hampel wrote:
For versatility and without removing your 'tried and true / bombproof"
hank-on set up consider to add or change your configuration to a
"solent" configuration' with an added solent stay attached to a
releaseable lever connection at the stem head or bowsprit cranse.

Nothing beats a hank on set of sails for heavy weather. A solent stay
for the genoa, with the genoa cut for extra luff sag, and added just
behind the jibstay and well in front of the forestay would add the
versatility for light winds without sacrificing the strength needed for
'wahoooooo' higher wind ranges. On such a solent stay arrangment with
furler you could build or have built a genoa in a radial configuration
with much lighter weight cloth at the luff portion and normal heavier
cloth at the leech section .... for good shape in the lower wind ranges
and the added strength needed for the higher wind ranges when only the
mid and aft sections would be exposed (partially furled/reefed). Since
such a sail is not carried aloft nor stored on a furler for long
periods (UV damage) you can consider one of the newer lighter weight
high tech sail cloths. The only 'problem' with a forward mounted
solent stay is that it requires you to gybe the genoa 'forward around'
the solent stay in all maneuvers including tacking (by gybing through
270 degrees) or the luff shape will be fouled by the permanently
attached jibstay.
If the solent stay is behind the jibstay (above) then you can't gybe it.
It has to go through the solent/forestay slot.
Proper rig tension and its proper set-up and being
able to make on-the-fly adjustments can become an issue - but if you
are already flying a yankee on a jibstay with a staysail under, you
(should) already know this.

With 'just' roller furling gear on the jibstay one usually doesnt
'bother' to change sails (from genoa to yankee or yankee to genoa) ...
and then you simply muddle along with just a stay'sl up ... and suffer.
Changing a large genoa onto or off of a foil is not a pleasant
experience, especially if it is sodden and heavy. A solent stay system
gives you instant 'versatility' but does add a bit of windage.

There are some 'nifty' spinnaker roller furling systems that are now
beginning to make thier appearance and are completely REMOVABLE when
not in use and lowered. They reduce the detriment of 'windage' in
comparison to roller furled sails when not in use. Such systems, if
over time prove reliable, will replace those pain-in-the-ass 'socks and
chute scoops". An example of such is:
http://www.rollgen.com/pdf/rollgen_e.pdf Such systems are useful for
large light weight drifters through very deeply shaped down wind
asymmetrical spinnakers. With flat cut close reaching and 'pointing'
sails there will be a need to increase the luff or halyard tensions to
get any decent shape out of the sail. If you have an extra large
winch, that would be the means to adequately control luff tension if
the sail's tack (corner) is flown from a tack line.
These code zero furlers are proven by the multihull and open 60s etc as
being reliable and efficient. I have one with a windseeker/drifter and
it works a treat

Yankee .... probably a worthless sail overall. The center of effort is
too high (causes excess heel) ..... hard to 'match shape' with a staysl
(unless the staysl has a VERY rounded entry and a very flat aft
section) ... by extreme stays'l halyard tension. The greater the
overlap with the staysl the LESS efficiency of the yankee-staysl
combination.
Not a worthless sail on a big boat. just think of it as a high clewed
100 percent jib. I love it.
Probably better to fly a blade-jib with a flat staysl
under .... for less heel, more forward thrust (more exposed leech) and
better control when too much wind ... as the sail will not become so
unstable when 'feathering or when 'blade-ing up'.

Hope this helps.
I have the twin headstay rig with a inner stay. Our boat has the genoa
on one and the yankee on the other (hanked on) and a staysail (jumbo) on
the inner. It gives us max flex with minimum work. We can fly them in
any combination. Tacking the genoa is always a pain. I would like to
put the staysail on a slip so I can get it out of the way but I worry
about the old wooden mast.

Our windseeker/drifter is on a code zero furler that we fly from the end
of the bowsprit. We furl it to tack it. It works a charm also. Much
better than the genny in light airs 10 knots.

On your boat a regular genoa is going to be too heavy to handle without
a furler.

My boat is 55' and has a Solent rig. I love it. The 90% inner jib even
self-tacks on a track. Both the jib and the genoa are on rollers. I
generally use the jib going up wind - plenty of power compared to a
cutter rig. If I'm using the genoa and have to tack, I roll it up.

I just think you'd find a solent retrofit too expensive. A lot of new
rig pieces.

I agree that your best option might be a cruising version of the
Code-0. There are a bunch of choices but look at the Doyle UPS
http://www.doylesails.com/sails-crui...l-spin-ups.htm. While
it's not quite as big as a spinnaker, it's a whole lot more than what
you have now. It's made of nylon (light), works from 33 degrees to 180
degrees, and furls on its own roller. The luff "wire" is vectran so it
bags right up when you pull it down.

If you get hit by a sudden nasty piece of weather you can also roll it
up and leave it rigged until things calm down. The "snuffer" systems
all require you to go on the foredeck when you really should be back in
the safety of the cockpit.

Carl

Rich Hampel wrote:
Tacking a large genoa though the 'slot' between forstay and jibstay is
a breeze if
1. the staysail is on a boom and able to be 'restrained' on the
traveller until the genoa goes 'around'
2. you use a tricing line - a line from the cockpit to a block at the
stemhead or bowsprit cranse then back to a 'patch' at about 70% LP
along the foot (or all the way to the clew) .... when needing to tack,
pull the tricing line and the clew of the genoa gets pulled forward
enough to 'bunch' the genoa so that it easily passes between the
forestay and jibstay. The AC boats of the 70s and 80s used tricing
lines on the large genoas to get the genoa around and across the large
baby stays used on these boats - just a large 'jerk' on the trice line
and the clew shoots forward, the sail bunches momentarily and falls
through the 'slot' .... works very well on a cutter rig with staysail.
Just use thin 'slippery' line .... or use the same line that you
already use for the tack line of an Asymmetrical Spinn.


Great idea. A tricing line. I'll try it!

Rich Hampel wrote:
Tacking a large genoa though the 'slot' between forstay and jibstay is
a breeze if
1. the staysail is on a boom and able to be 'restrained' on the
traveller until the genoa goes 'around'
2. you use a tricing line - a line from the cockpit to a block at the
stemhead or bowsprit cranse then back to a 'patch' at about 70% LP
along the foot (or all the way to the clew) .... when needing to tack,
pull the tricing line and the clew of the genoa gets pulled forward
enough to 'bunch' the genoa so that it easily passes between the
forestay and jibstay. The AC boats of the 70s and 80s used tricing
lines on the large genoas to get the genoa around and across the large
baby stays used on these boats - just a large 'jerk' on the trice line
and the clew shoots forward, the sail bunches momentarily and falls
through the 'slot' .... works very well on a cutter rig with staysail.
Just use thin 'slippery' line .... or use the same line that you
already use for the tack line of an Asymmetrical Spinn.

Anyway to use a Tricing line with a furler? I guess the
only option would be to detach it before furling?

Evan Gatehouse

Not really necessary, especially when it only attached to the clew.

In article , Evan Gatehouse
wrote:

Rich Hampel wrote:
Tacking a large genoa though the 'slot' between forstay and jibstay is
a breeze if
1. the staysail is on a boom and able to be 'restrained' on the
traveller until the genoa goes 'around'
2. you use a tricing line - a line from the cockpit to a block at the
stemhead or bowsprit cranse then back to a 'patch' at about 70% LP
along the foot (or all the way to the clew) .... when needing to tack,
pull the tricing line and the clew of the genoa gets pulled forward
enough to 'bunch' the genoa so that it easily passes between the
forestay and jibstay. The AC boats of the 70s and 80s used tricing
lines on the large genoas to get the genoa around and across the large
baby stays used on these boats - just a large 'jerk' on the trice line
and the clew shoots forward, the sail bunches momentarily and falls
through the 'slot' .... works very well on a cutter rig with staysail.
Just use thin 'slippery' line .... or use the same line that you
already use for the tack line of an Asymmetrical Spinn.

Anyway to use a Tricing line with a furler? I guess the
only option would be to detach it before furling?

Evan Gatehouse