High Times
 

Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

Skip,
Check out the ATN topclimber at http://www.atninc.com/topclimber.html
krj

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Are you suggesting that as a harness, or a climbing method?

I think I'm aware of that - but I'm talking about something worn to allow
you sitting comfort while up, without the ability to upend yourself
accidentally, not something to ascend a wire-tight line.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"krj" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions
in this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we
look for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I
have a fine one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and
safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

Skip,
Check out the ATN topclimber at http://www.atninc.com/topclimber.html
krj

High Times
 

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:14:53 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

=================================

I used to have an REI harness in my inventory when I was actively
racing but have misplaced it somewhere. It was OK but not overly
comfortable, and it takes a little practice to get it on properly.

Climbing harnesses are very popular with the foredeck crew on good
sized racing boats because they can be worn all the time, and these
guys need to be able to scurry up the mast or out to the end of the
spinnaker pole on a moments notice. Other than that, the only other
advantage in my opinion is light weight and compact size. And oh yes,
they do project a certain macho aura among the uninitiated female set.

I personally find a conventional canvas sling type seat or even an old
fashioned board seat to be more comfortable. I just bought a new
canvas sling seat from WM last week which has a tool pocket and safety
straps, all that I need, for about $80 if I recall.

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Are you suggesting that as a harness, or a climbing method?

I think I'm aware of that - but I'm talking about something worn to allow
you sitting comfort while up, without the ability to upend yourself
accidentally, not something to ascend a wire-tight line.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

Did you look at the web site? Play the video? It is a boson's chair to
sit in when you get up where you want to be. Stand in the stirups, push
the chair attachment up the rope, sit in the chair, push the stirups up,
stand up, push the chair up. Do that until you get to the point you
want to work. Sit in the chair to work unless you need to work over the
masthead, then stand in the stirups.
krj

High Times
 

I waited for a while to see if anyone would suggest this:

http://www.briontoss.com/wkstone/web...ntoss&Profile=[shopper:publicprof/gotoPage.prof]


Skip Gundlach wrote:
Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

"krj" wrote in message
...
Did you look at the web site? Play the video? It is a boson's chair to sit
in when you get up where you want to be. Stand in the stirups, push the
chair attachment up the rope, sit in the chair, push the stirups up, stand
up, push the chair up. Do that until you get to the point you want to
work. Sit in the chair to work unless you need to work over the masthead,
then stand in the stirups.
krj

I have, in the past.

I'm also aware of similar methods of ascent in climbing gear, very highly
recommeded by climbers who are also sailors. I've not yet decided how I
want to get up - but I was thinking in terms of what to wear when I got
there.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

They'll all do the trick. Just get a comfortable one, preferably one
size fits all unless you are the only one that goes up your mast.

They aren't as comfortable as a bosuns chair but they sure are handy and
can be a spare safety harness too.

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
"krj" wrote in message
...

Did you look at the web site? Play the video? It is a boson's chair to sit
in when you get up where you want to be. Stand in the stirups, push the
chair attachment up the rope, sit in the chair, push the stirups up, stand
up, push the chair up. Do that until you get to the point you want to
work. Sit in the chair to work unless you need to work over the masthead,
then stand in the stirups.
krj


I have, in the past.

I'm also aware of similar methods of ascent in climbing gear, very highly
recommeded by climbers who are also sailors. I've not yet decided how I
want to get up - but I was thinking in terms of what to wear when I got
there.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

L8R

Skip

That is for canyoneering, very uncomfortable and sticky.

This is what I have (left over from climbing)

http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...ory_rn=4500671

High Times
 

Being somewhat acrophobia I have a Brion Toss designed riggers harness. It
is very comfortable and you can't fall out of it but it ain't cheap. Also a
pair of Petzl ascenders. The right hand one is hooked to one of the harness
chest D-rings and the other to some webbing for the feet. So far I have
only used it to replace the halyard on my 60' flag pole but I was able to
make it to the top by myself using the "inch worm" technique without getting
totally exhausted and worked comfortably and did a little sight seeing up
there for a while. That rig is going to have a special place on Rutu.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at gmail dotcom wrote in message
...
Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions
in this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we
look for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have
a fine one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and
safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

High Times
 

Being a former vertical caver, I use a system of prusik knots to ascend
my mast. The advantages of prusiks is that they are inexpensive and
nearly foolproof. You must have a seat harness which you can tie from
a piece of 1" webbing as a so-called "diaper sling". You must also
have a chest harness attached to the seat harness. You have a prusik
on each foot and one on your chest. You sit relaxed hanging from the
chest loop, raise each foot prusik in sequence then stand up while
sliding the chest prusik. Sounds complicated but I have climbed out of
a 1000' pit this way.
I personally do not like mechanical ascendars because they allow
foolish people to get in trouble. They seem too easy to use and I have
seen people make serious mistakes with them.
Remember, you MUST have both a chest and seat harness and they MUST be
attached to each other at the front, otherwise you can end up hanging
by your feet.

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Nice link - thanks. Not knowing about climbing (or I wouldn't have to ask
these stupid questions), what makes it uncomfortable and sticky? Another
correspondent in another (list) group prefers this one. Of course each to
his or her own - but this is the type of input I'm looking for; what works
and doesn't work, to our purpose.

How's it sit? How is it for extended time aloft?

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"Gary" wrote in message
news:Y7Hpf.30972$2k.8103@pd7tw1no...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
"krj" wrote in message
...

Did you look at the web site? Play the video? It is a boson's chair to
sit in when you get up where you want to be. Stand in the stirups, push
the chair attachment up the rope, sit in the chair, push the stirups up,
stand up, push the chair up. Do that until you get to the point you want
to work. Sit in the chair to work unless you need to work over the
masthead, then stand in the stirups.
krj


I have, in the past.

I'm also aware of similar methods of ascent in climbing gear, very highly
recommeded by climbers who are also sailors. I've not yet decided how I
want to get up - but I was thinking in terms of what to wear when I got
there.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

L8R

Skip

That is for canyoneering, very uncomfortable and sticky.

This is what I have (left over from climbing)

http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...ory_rn=4500671

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Nice link - thanks. Not knowing about climbing (or I wouldn't have to ask
these stupid questions), what makes it uncomfortable and sticky? Another
correspondent in another (list) group prefers this one. Of course each to
his or her own - but this is the type of input I'm looking for; what works
and doesn't work, to our purpose.

How's it sit? How is it for extended time aloft?

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip

It is a climbing harness not a seat so it doesn't feel the same as a
hard seat. But remember, climbers wear them for days and frequently use
hanging belays. It's not bad especially if you can get your feet rested
out in front of you.

The Canyon harness is not meant for the same thing. It is designed for
working in moving water on rivers and the plastic/rubber seat is for
that. The seat is extra durable and snag free for when they slide down
steep cliffs and water run offs. It would probably work but I have
always used climbing harnesses so I guess I am bias.

I guess, in a nut shell, modern climbing harnesses are designed to hang
around working in all day. You can't fall out of them. They can be
used as a lifeline harness. They are certified to some extraordinary
strength by the UIAA (unlike bosun's chairs).

I trust them.

Gaz

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
I'm also aware of similar methods of ascent in climbing gear, very highly
recommeded by climbers who are also sailors. I've not yet decided how I
want to get up - but I was thinking in terms of what to wear when I got
there.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

I use a modified sport climbing harness. It is the type
without any padding. Not comfy for more than about 10
minutes hanging in it. So I sewed in some padding to the
harness. Now it's good for 20-30 minutes before the
pressure in your thighs gets a bit much.

I think the one you have found is much better. The seat
looks very comfy and Petzl is a trusted name in climbing
harnesses.

I think Brion Toss' one is rather overpriced for a extra
padded climbing harness.

I love climbing harnesses compared to a old style plank
chair. You can't fall out of them and they attach lower
down your body, a great advantage when working at the
masthead so you can get to the TOP of the mast.

Next time i go up I will bring a few little slings and make
some prussik steps so I can stand at the masthead and
relieve the pressure on my thighs.

Evan Gatehouse

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Gary wrote:
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Nice link - thanks. Not knowing about climbing (or I wouldn't have to
ask these stupid questions), what makes it uncomfortable and sticky?
Another correspondent in another (list) group prefers this one. Of
course each to his or her own - but this is the type of input I'm
looking for; what works and doesn't work, to our purpose.

How's it sit? How is it for extended time aloft?

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip

It is a climbing harness not a seat so it doesn't feel the same as a
hard seat. But remember, climbers wear them for days and frequently use
hanging belays. It's not bad especially if you can get your feet rested
out in front of you.

The Canyon harness is not meant for the same thing. It is designed for
working in moving water on rivers and the plastic/rubber seat is for
that. The seat is extra durable and snag free for when they slide down
steep cliffs and water run offs. It would probably work but I have
always used climbing harnesses so I guess I am bias.

I guess, in a nut shell, modern climbing harnesses are designed to hang
around working in all day. You can't fall out of them. They can be
used as a lifeline harness. They are certified to some extraordinary
strength by the UIAA (unlike bosun's chairs).

I trust them.

Gaz

I didn't understand what the harness Skip found was for -
I'll retract my comment about it being comfortable for
hanging around. Basically find a climbing harness with lots
of padding, in both the legs and waist, that is meant for
aid climbing, where it is assumed you will do more hanging
from it.

Evan Gatehouse

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Evan Gatehouse wrote:

Skip Gundlach wrote:
I'm also aware of similar methods of ascent in climbing gear, very highly
recommeded by climbers who are also sailors. I've not yet decided how I
want to get up - but I was thinking in terms of what to wear when I got
there.

Bob found the bosn's chair that came with our boat VERY uncomfortable.
So he got a climbing harness from Mountain Gear that he likes very
much. It is much cheaper than the very similar rigger's harness stuff
that is available in marine outlets.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

I use a modified sport climbing harness. It is the type
without any padding. Not comfy for more than about 10
minutes hanging in it. So I sewed in some padding to the
harness. Now it's good for 20-30 minutes before the
pressure in your thighs gets a bit much.

I think the one you have found is much better. The seat
looks very comfy and Petzl is a trusted name in climbing
harnesses.

I think Brion Toss' one is rather overpriced for a extra
padded climbing harness.

I love climbing harnesses compared to a old style plank
chair. You can't fall out of them and they attach lower
down your body, a great advantage when working at the
masthead so you can get to the TOP of the mast.

Next time i go up I will bring a few little slings and make
some prussik steps so I can stand at the masthead and
relieve the pressure on my thighs.

Evan Gatehouse

grandma Rosalie

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

Strangely, I cannot find any websites that show how to make caving
harnesses or how to tie prusiks. I learned it all before the internet
but you might try a few caving books. I have done both rock climbing
and caving and caving techniques are closer to what you need to climb
your mast. Rock climbing harnesses are not meant for rope climbing so
I reccomend caving style harnesses. A rock climbing harness is
intended to support you when you fall off the rock while a caving
ahrness is meant to support you WHILE YOU CLIMB THE ROPE. (cavers
rarely climb vertical rocks cuz rocks in caves are so rotten).
For a caving style harness, you want the connection tween seat and
chest harness to be short enough to be uncomfortable when you stand
(Really). This connection is usually made with a short webbing loop
and carabiner. Your chest prusik needs to be as short as possible so
it holds you close to the rope. Your foot loops and prusiks need to
come to mid thigh.
Every time I climbed, I thought "This is really uncomforatble walking
around in and looks like some sort of S&M thing" but as soon as I was
on rope I was amazed at how comfy it was (its a fear thing). As far as
long term comfort goes, I once spent 2.5 hours hanging in my harness
climbing out of a 1000' pit (people above me were slow) and was as
comfortable as you can be hanging 500' above the cave floor.
Never trust your life to a sailboat rope clutch, tie the rope to a
cleat. I don't trust ANY rope that has been out in the weahter for a
few years so I always go up the main halyard while using the jib
halyard as a safety rope also tied to my harness. This safety rope
goes around a winch many times with the person holding the end having
specific instructions to PAY ATTENTION. Always have your partner check
your harness before you climb. Never allow anybody to stand below
while you are up the mast (You will drop stuff).
When you go up, haul your tools up in a bucket below you. You might
want to tie a prusik with a loop to the jib halyard when you are up
there to allow you to step up just a few more inches to see over the
masthead.
Do not allow your partner to lower you. Instead, prusik down. When
you are on rope, NEVER cut a rope. People who get tangled tend to want
to cut things and often manage to cut the rope they are on.
My advice for what its worth.

ATN TopClimber (was) High Times
 

masthead.
Do not allow your partner to lower you. Instead, prusik down. When
you are on rope, NEVER cut a rope. People who get tangled tend to want
to cut things and often manage to cut the rope they are on.
My advice for what its worth.

I'll tell a story as a little reminder of when things go
wrong. I was freeing up a stuck bolt at the masthead with a
propane torch. Smelled something funny. Stopped doing what
I was doing. Looked at the rope halyard holding me up -
melted 1/2 way through (3/8" rope). Also melted through the
spare halyard holding as a safety line.

"Lower me extra gently" was the call...

Evan Gatehouse

High Times
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, off to the boat on Friday to work during the holiday week


If you want a climbing harness get one designed for big wall climbing.
Misty Mountains Cadillac model is nice
http://www.mistymountain.com/harness.htm

Black Diamond makes nice harnesses as well
http://www.bdel.com/gear/harnesses_overview.php

High Times
 

Make your prusiks from 5/16" nylon braid or stiff 3-stranded nylon. Do
not use webbing material, it slips.
You might try Intermountain Sports (or maybe its Inner Mountain sports)
as they seem to be the latest caver supply place. The place to buy
cave stuff used to be Bob & Bob but I have no idea if they still exist.
You could sew your own, I did and it has been in and out of the deepest
pits in the world under gawdawful conditions. Use one of those sewing
awl things with a bobbin in it (Brand Name is "The Speedy Stitcher").
BE CAREFUL and dont be a dead macho moron.

High Times
 

wrote:
Make your prusiks from 5/16" nylon braid or stiff 3-stranded nylon. Do
not use webbing material, it slips.
You might try Intermountain Sports (or maybe its Inner Mountain sports)
as they seem to be the latest caver supply place. The place to buy
cave stuff used to be Bob & Bob but I have no idea if they still exist.
You could sew your own, I did and it has been in and out of the deepest
pits in the world under gawdawful conditions. Use one of those sewing
awl things with a bobbin in it (Brand Name is "The Speedy Stitcher").
BE CAREFUL and dont be a dead macho moron.

If you use webbing it's a different knot.
Check out:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm

Gaz
Who would rather use ascenders.

High Times
 

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:14:53 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

Well, up the mast, anyway!

This has probably been covered to death, but I think I recall discussions in
this space before about improvements on the typical bosun chair to the
effect of good mountain climbing gear.

Looking at climbing harnesses on REI, a frequently mentioned retailer of
such stuff, the harnesses I see don't look the least bit like I'd have
expected.

Are there any here with experience in this sort of gear? What should we look
for for up-the-mast use (in place of the bosun chair, of which I have a fine
one, but this is supposed to be far superior in comfort and safety)?

Thanks.

L8R

I just picked up Hal Roth's "How to Sail Around the World" and while
there's a fair bit of repetition from his earlier books, it's a good
solid compendium. I noticed that all his boats had and have pretty
solid-looking mast steps. I would say this is the way to go for a
cruiser unless there's a compelling reason not to just resort to an
ATN Climber or some similar piece of mountaineering kit.

R.

High Times
 

I've tried that Bachman knot, they say it slips on icy rope, I know
from experience it also slips on muddy rope.

High Times
 

High Times
 

Commodore Joe Redcloud© wrote:


I just picked up Hal Roth's "How to Sail Around the World" and while
there's a fair bit of repetition from his earlier books, it's a good
solid compendium. I noticed that all his boats had and have pretty
solid-looking mast steps. I would say this is the way to go for a
cruiser unless there's a compelling reason not to just resort to an
ATN Climber or some similar piece of mountaineering kit.

R.


There are a few drawbacks to mast steps, not the least of which is
galvanic corrosion weakening the mast. The mounting plate may prevent
you from seeing the damage until the mast collapses.


Commodore Joe Redcloud©
I heard the biggest complaint is noise in strong wnds.

High Times
 

Another possibility is to use an "Etrier" which is a sort of webbing
ladder that you could hang from your halyard. You would make it from
1" tubular webbing with steps tied every 2'. You might even find a
cable ladder from a climbing supply place. However, climbing either
one is harder than it sounds. The admonition about a safety rope
strongly applies here.
For that matter, why not have holes for steps pre-drilled in your mast
but do not put the steps on. Instead, they'd have captive studs that
would slip into a slot with an opening at the top of the slot into
which the stud would fit and then would be pulled about 1/2" down into
the slot. You would then need very few steps as you would climb and
pull up the ones below you as you went up. I dont really think this
would work well.

High Times
 

$500, MY GOD. My system cost me maybe $20. But, Petzl always wuz
xpensive stuff.
I do agree about lessons cuz its really easy to make mistakes. I've
seen people fasten their harnesses with Fastek buckles, maybe they got
lucky and are still alive. When I was really into cavin, eventually I
decided to always be the last out of a pit cuz invariably, otherwise
I'd have to go back down to help some poor fool who went in not knowin
how to use his mechanical ascenders. Half the time I'd tie him some
prisiks and make him a believer in them.

High Times
 

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:19:57 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:

When the mast comes down in strong winds it makes quite a racket!

======================

Indeed it does. Another issue with mast steps is that they tend to
snag halyards in awkward ways that mandate a trip aloft just to undo
the mess.

High Times
 

$500, MY GOD. My system cost me maybe $20. But, Petzl always wuz
xpensive stuff.
I do agree about lessons cuz its really easy to make mistakes. I've
seen people fasten their harnesses with Fastek buckles, maybe they got
lucky and are still alive. When I was really into cavin, eventually I
decided to always be the last out of a pit cuz invariably, otherwise
I'd have to go back down to help some poor fool who went in not knowin
how to use his mechanical ascenders. Half the time I'd tie him some
prisiks and make him a believer in them.

Obviously, I could talk about caving forever but I can no longer do it.
Somehow, I can no longer regulate body temp so I get dehydrated very
fast in spite of the near 100% humidity and cannot carry enough water
to help. I get sorta wacko and do not care if I get out or not. Past
two serious trips nearly killed me so I go sailing now, a sorta poor
substitute for thrills.

High Times
 

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:17:27 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:

My high tech 7/8 inch line was not the cheap stuff
either.

=================

Why 7/8 line? I assume that is diameter? Seems like much larger than
necessary unless the ascenders need that much to get a good grip. 7/8
diameter is way too heavy for a climber to be carrying around.

I'd be interested in hearing about some of the safety precautions
since I've done a bit of "ascending" without benefit of formal
instruction.

High Times
 

Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

For deep pits, several of us pooled our money and bought 1200' of PMI
11 mm very low stretch rope. New rope has a waxy coating that makes it
"fast" on rappels so it has to be washed. You can imagine the looks we
got at the laundrymat stuffing 1200' of rope into an oversize washer
(half in one and half in the one next to it with duct tape to disable
the door switch.) PMI cost $.48/ft then.

My cave pack was a $2.00 surplus gas mask holder modified with Fastek
buckles. An expensive mountaineering pack would last only one trip
while I still have my gas mask bag after 20 yrs. A carbide lamp was
about $20 and a construction helmet about $5.00 modified with chin
strap. Expensive mountaineering gear simply did not last on caving
trips so we used ultra-cheap stuff. Surplus Viet nam jungle boots for
$5.00 a pair would last maybe 20 trips. For cave clothing we wore
either cheapo cotton stuff from goodwill or scavenged old disco era
clothing for free. It had to be thrown away after a trip.

This was the cheapest high adventure sport you could imagine. We went
places and did stuff that far exceeded stuff you see in National
Geographic. In later years, I am finally seeing pics of the places we
went in National Geo. Cavers always look like crap covered with mud so
no outdoor equipment maker wanted cavers as models so special made
equipment did not exist (now it does much to my dislike).

The one piece of equipment I used then that I use all the time for
sailing is my old hand compass. Although it may mean little to him, I
plan to say in my will that my son inherits it.

High Times
 

You dont need the 1200' of rope to climb your mast, ok, maybe you could
rig every boat in the yard.

High Times
 

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:27:08 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing about some of the safety precautions
since I've done a bit of "ascending" without benefit of formal
instruction.

=========================

I'd still be interested in hearing more about that. One of my own
"home grown" rules is never to come down faster than I went up. :-)

High Times
 

On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:

Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

For deep pits, several of us pooled our money and bought 1200' of PMI
11 mm very low stretch rope. New rope has a waxy coating that makes it
"fast" on rappels so it has to be washed. You can imagine the looks we
got at the laundrymat stuffing 1200' of rope into an oversize washer
(half in one and half in the one next to it with duct tape to disable
the door switch.) PMI cost $.48/ft then.

My cave pack was a $2.00 surplus gas mask holder modified with Fastek
buckles. An expensive mountaineering pack would last only one trip
while I still have my gas mask bag after 20 yrs. A carbide lamp was
about $20 and a construction helmet about $5.00 modified with chin
strap. Expensive mountaineering gear simply did not last on caving
trips so we used ultra-cheap stuff. Surplus Viet nam jungle boots for
$5.00 a pair would last maybe 20 trips. For cave clothing we wore
either cheapo cotton stuff from goodwill or scavenged old disco era
clothing for free. It had to be thrown away after a trip.

This was the cheapest high adventure sport you could imagine. We went
places and did stuff that far exceeded stuff you see in National
Geographic. In later years, I am finally seeing pics of the places we
went in National Geo. Cavers always look like crap covered with mud so
no outdoor equipment maker wanted cavers as models so special made
equipment did not exist (now it does much to my dislike).

The one piece of equipment I used then that I use all the time for
sailing is my old hand compass. Although it may mean little to him, I
plan to say in my will that my son inherits it.


Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's - and rather less money too!
I have made A swiss harness from car seat belting (this stuff is
typically rated at 30 g's tensile on a heavy body.) I have a couple of
climbing harnesses and an industrial harness too. This last item is
made like a climbing harness with a long umbilical and everything in
heavy terylene webbing. Kinda cumbersome. I made "huits" (=figure of
eights) for rapelling and sliding bar brakes, but I can't bring myself
to cough up for ascenders - though fence wire grippers won't quite do
it either!

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

High Times
 

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:59:41 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 03:57:52 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote:

On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:

Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

[Brian]
Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's

[Redcloud]
??? How on earth do you possibly come to that conclusion?


Commodore Joe Redcloud


....because I am an engineer with experience at making both kinds of
materials. How else would I know?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

High Times
 

Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:59:41 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:


On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 03:57:52 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote:


On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:


Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.


[Brian]

Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's

[Redcloud]

??? How on earth do you possibly come to that conclusion?


Commodore Joe Redcloud



...because I am an engineer with experience at making both kinds of
materials. How else would I know?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK
What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.

High Times
 

High Times
 

Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott

UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).

High Times
 

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 16:26:23 GMT, Gary wrote:

Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott


[Gary/Gaz/Plumper]
UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).

[Brian]
Ho hum. At least this response avoids another personal attack.
Not even a whisper of back streets, gutter-snipes, trailer-trash,
etc., etc.

So in return let me explain. I will be brief, mostly because I don't
much care whether you understand or not.
The UIAA is L'Union International des Associations d'Alpinisme.
They do a worthy job in underwriting technical safety of climbing
gear.
Technical gear found its start in the back streets of enthusiasts, in
a manner of speaking. A nut was called a nut because a guy at
Rolls-Royce (I think it was) threaded a stainless loop through a
machine nut. The people who dreamed up technical stuff were either
engineers, or took careful advice of engineers. But there was a
conflict (not uncommon in aero engineering in fact) between lightness
and strength. So testing and traceability were imported from Aero
engineering practice. This is expensive. Because the trade is
low-volume.

The lower cost route to engineering reliability (and engineers are
always interested in the most bang for the buck) is generous NOT
minimum safety margins. That means the devices are heavier,
and nearly always stronger.

So if you want the very strongest device like a climbing harness you
DON'T choose a UIAA type device - you specify an industrially rated
device that is specified for abusive use under legal constraints.
But it's not everybody that wants such an awkward harness with huge
buckles etc...... so there is a middle way. An engineer is the job
description of someone capable of doing this sort of material
specification.

Get it?

If not, you'll need to look for someone else to continue this
discussion, because you've taken all the pro bono time I'm willing to
offer you.

Hasta la Vista

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

High Times
 

Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 16:26:23 GMT, Gary wrote:


Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott



[Gary/Gaz/Plumper]

UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).


[Brian]
Ho hum. At least this response avoids another personal attack.
Not even a whisper of back streets, gutter-snipes, trailer-trash,
etc., etc.

So in return let me explain. I will be brief, mostly because I don't
much care whether you understand or not.
The UIAA is L'Union International des Associations d'Alpinisme.
They do a worthy job in underwriting technical safety of climbing
gear.
Technical gear found its start in the back streets of enthusiasts, in
a manner of speaking. A nut was called a nut because a guy at
Rolls-Royce (I think it was) threaded a stainless loop through a
machine nut. The people who dreamed up technical stuff were either
engineers, or took careful advice of engineers. But there was a
conflict (not uncommon in aero engineering in fact) between lightness
and strength. So testing and traceability were imported from Aero
engineering practice. This is expensive. Because the trade is
low-volume.

The lower cost route to engineering reliability (and engineers are
always interested in the most bang for the buck) is generous NOT
minimum safety margins. That means the devices are heavier,
and nearly always stronger.

So if you want the very strongest device like a climbing harness you
DON'T choose a UIAA type device - you specify an industrially rated
device that is specified for abusive use under legal constraints.
But it's not everybody that wants such an awkward harness with huge
buckles etc...... so there is a middle way. An engineer is the job
description of someone capable of doing this sort of material
specification.

Get it?

If not, you'll need to look for someone else to continue this
discussion, because you've taken all the pro bono time I'm willing to
offer you.

Hasta la Vista

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Remember the beginning, a comfortable harness to climb a mast instead of
a bosun's chair? We recommended climbing harnesses and you started to
overbuild (2" webbing etc). A climbing harness built to withstand a
fall of twice the length of a rope, and not fail, is already way over
built for holding you up a mast. Essentially top-roping on a 50' pitch,
right? Anything more is plain silly. That is pro bono common sense.

I know what UIAA is.
I know the history of nuts (actually started with chock stones, then
nuts - Joe Brown era).
I know what engineers do. Space shuttle, Tacoma Narrows bridge,
Titanic.......
You climb in your homemade harness, I'll stick with stuff tested by real
engineers. Think about that after you pop off wearing your seatbelt
webbing and 2" D rings.

Get it?

Gaz