Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

For deep pits, several of us pooled our money and bought 1200' of PMI
11 mm very low stretch rope. New rope has a waxy coating that makes it
"fast" on rappels so it has to be washed. You can imagine the looks we
got at the laundrymat stuffing 1200' of rope into an oversize washer
(half in one and half in the one next to it with duct tape to disable
the door switch.) PMI cost $.48/ft then.

My cave pack was a $2.00 surplus gas mask holder modified with Fastek
buckles. An expensive mountaineering pack would last only one trip
while I still have my gas mask bag after 20 yrs. A carbide lamp was
about $20 and a construction helmet about $5.00 modified with chin
strap. Expensive mountaineering gear simply did not last on caving
trips so we used ultra-cheap stuff. Surplus Viet nam jungle boots for
$5.00 a pair would last maybe 20 trips. For cave clothing we wore
either cheapo cotton stuff from goodwill or scavenged old disco era
clothing for free. It had to be thrown away after a trip.

This was the cheapest high adventure sport you could imagine. We went
places and did stuff that far exceeded stuff you see in National
Geographic. In later years, I am finally seeing pics of the places we
went in National Geo. Cavers always look like crap covered with mud so
no outdoor equipment maker wanted cavers as models so special made
equipment did not exist (now it does much to my dislike).

The one piece of equipment I used then that I use all the time for
sailing is my old hand compass. Although it may mean little to him, I
plan to say in my will that my son inherits it.

You dont need the 1200' of rope to climb your mast, ok, maybe you could
rig every boat in the yard.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:27:08 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing about some of the safety precautions
since I've done a bit of "ascending" without benefit of formal
instruction.

=========================

I'd still be interested in hearing more about that. One of my own
"home grown" rules is never to come down faster than I went up. :-)

On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:

Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

For deep pits, several of us pooled our money and bought 1200' of PMI
11 mm very low stretch rope. New rope has a waxy coating that makes it
"fast" on rappels so it has to be washed. You can imagine the looks we
got at the laundrymat stuffing 1200' of rope into an oversize washer
(half in one and half in the one next to it with duct tape to disable
the door switch.) PMI cost $.48/ft then.

My cave pack was a $2.00 surplus gas mask holder modified with Fastek
buckles. An expensive mountaineering pack would last only one trip
while I still have my gas mask bag after 20 yrs. A carbide lamp was
about $20 and a construction helmet about $5.00 modified with chin
strap. Expensive mountaineering gear simply did not last on caving
trips so we used ultra-cheap stuff. Surplus Viet nam jungle boots for
$5.00 a pair would last maybe 20 trips. For cave clothing we wore
either cheapo cotton stuff from goodwill or scavenged old disco era
clothing for free. It had to be thrown away after a trip.

This was the cheapest high adventure sport you could imagine. We went
places and did stuff that far exceeded stuff you see in National
Geographic. In later years, I am finally seeing pics of the places we
went in National Geo. Cavers always look like crap covered with mud so
no outdoor equipment maker wanted cavers as models so special made
equipment did not exist (now it does much to my dislike).

The one piece of equipment I used then that I use all the time for
sailing is my old hand compass. Although it may mean little to him, I
plan to say in my will that my son inherits it.


Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's - and rather less money too!
I have made A swiss harness from car seat belting (this stuff is
typically rated at 30 g's tensile on a heavy body.) I have a couple of
climbing harnesses and an industrial harness too. This last item is
made like a climbing harness with a long umbilical and everything in
heavy terylene webbing. Kinda cumbersome. I made "huits" (=figure of
eights) for rapelling and sliding bar brakes, but I can't bring myself
to cough up for ascenders - though fence wire grippers won't quite do
it either!

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:59:41 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 03:57:52 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote:

On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:

Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.

[Brian]
Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's

[Redcloud]
??? How on earth do you possibly come to that conclusion?


Commodore Joe Redcloud


....because I am an engineer with experience at making both kinds of
materials. How else would I know?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:59:41 GMT, Commodore Joe Redcloud
wrote:


On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 03:57:52 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote:


On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:


Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.


[Brian]

Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's

[Redcloud]

??? How on earth do you possibly come to that conclusion?


Commodore Joe Redcloud



...because I am an engineer with experience at making both kinds of
materials. How else would I know?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK
What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.

On 23 Dec 2005 09:00:57 -0800, wrote:


Lets see, about 20' of seat belt webbing, 2 "D" rings, a seat belt
adjuster for the chest harness (not the clip but the adjuster), 1' of
1" wide webbing, about 10' of hard braid nylon for prusiks. OK, I
already had the locking carabiner but they are about $6.00 each.


[Brian]

Yep, much as I thought - your rig is stronger by far than the
commodore's

[Redcloud]

??? How on earth do you possibly come to that conclusion?


Commodore Joe Redcloud


[Brian]
...because I am an engineer with experience at making both kinds of
materials. How else would I know?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:23:24 GMT, Gary
came back with this reasoned evaluation:

What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.


That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott

Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott

UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 16:26:23 GMT, Gary wrote:

Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott


[Gary/Gaz/Plumper]
UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).

[Brian]
Ho hum. At least this response avoids another personal attack.
Not even a whisper of back streets, gutter-snipes, trailer-trash,
etc., etc.

So in return let me explain. I will be brief, mostly because I don't
much care whether you understand or not.
The UIAA is L'Union International des Associations d'Alpinisme.
They do a worthy job in underwriting technical safety of climbing
gear.
Technical gear found its start in the back streets of enthusiasts, in
a manner of speaking. A nut was called a nut because a guy at
Rolls-Royce (I think it was) threaded a stainless loop through a
machine nut. The people who dreamed up technical stuff were either
engineers, or took careful advice of engineers. But there was a
conflict (not uncommon in aero engineering in fact) between lightness
and strength. So testing and traceability were imported from Aero
engineering practice. This is expensive. Because the trade is
low-volume.

The lower cost route to engineering reliability (and engineers are
always interested in the most bang for the buck) is generous NOT
minimum safety margins. That means the devices are heavier,
and nearly always stronger.

So if you want the very strongest device like a climbing harness you
DON'T choose a UIAA type device - you specify an industrially rated
device that is specified for abusive use under legal constraints.
But it's not everybody that wants such an awkward harness with huge
buckles etc...... so there is a middle way. An engineer is the job
description of someone capable of doing this sort of material
specification.

Get it?

If not, you'll need to look for someone else to continue this
discussion, because you've taken all the pro bono time I'm willing to
offer you.

Hasta la Vista

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 16:26:23 GMT, Gary wrote:


Brian Whatcott wrote:



What a load of crap. 2" seatbelt webbing, 2 D" rings welded by some guy
who has no idea what they will be used for, a foot of 1" webbing
fashioned into some homemade sit harness by some Chouinard wanna may be
stronger (not!) but I'd go with the UIAA tested, warranteed, insured
stuff made by some reputable company who has made tens of thousands and
continues to enjoy good success rather than the trailer park version.

Gaz
Still climbing and sailing - same gear.



That is of course, your option. And if you don't have the requisite
background, it is usually an EXCELLENT idea to go with the more
expensive choice.

Fortunately, I am not limited by the concept that bucks = safe in
quite the same way. That doesn't mean you're talking crap and
projecting. It doesn't mean you're dumb with judgment to match,

I have got several pro harnesses, an industrial harness (far FAR
stronger than anything you've got) and several swiss harnesses
(home-made by a guy who knows what he is doing)
and I can evaluate relative strengths.

What have you got, besides gut-feeling?

Brian Whatcott



[Gary/Gaz/Plumper]

UIAA approval. Trumps "gut feeling" and your evaluation (which is
really your gut feeling right?).


[Brian]
Ho hum. At least this response avoids another personal attack.
Not even a whisper of back streets, gutter-snipes, trailer-trash,
etc., etc.

So in return let me explain. I will be brief, mostly because I don't
much care whether you understand or not.
The UIAA is L'Union International des Associations d'Alpinisme.
They do a worthy job in underwriting technical safety of climbing
gear.
Technical gear found its start in the back streets of enthusiasts, in
a manner of speaking. A nut was called a nut because a guy at
Rolls-Royce (I think it was) threaded a stainless loop through a
machine nut. The people who dreamed up technical stuff were either
engineers, or took careful advice of engineers. But there was a
conflict (not uncommon in aero engineering in fact) between lightness
and strength. So testing and traceability were imported from Aero
engineering practice. This is expensive. Because the trade is
low-volume.

The lower cost route to engineering reliability (and engineers are
always interested in the most bang for the buck) is generous NOT
minimum safety margins. That means the devices are heavier,
and nearly always stronger.

So if you want the very strongest device like a climbing harness you
DON'T choose a UIAA type device - you specify an industrially rated
device that is specified for abusive use under legal constraints.
But it's not everybody that wants such an awkward harness with huge
buckles etc...... so there is a middle way. An engineer is the job
description of someone capable of doing this sort of material
specification.

Get it?

If not, you'll need to look for someone else to continue this
discussion, because you've taken all the pro bono time I'm willing to
offer you.

Hasta la Vista

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Remember the beginning, a comfortable harness to climb a mast instead of
a bosun's chair? We recommended climbing harnesses and you started to
overbuild (2" webbing etc). A climbing harness built to withstand a
fall of twice the length of a rope, and not fail, is already way over
built for holding you up a mast. Essentially top-roping on a 50' pitch,
right? Anything more is plain silly. That is pro bono common sense.

I know what UIAA is.
I know the history of nuts (actually started with chock stones, then
nuts - Joe Brown era).
I know what engineers do. Space shuttle, Tacoma Narrows bridge,
Titanic.......
You climb in your homemade harness, I'll stick with stuff tested by real
engineers. Think about that after you pop off wearing your seatbelt
webbing and 2" D rings.

Get it?

Gaz