500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention than
that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was twice as
big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel engines
around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a thread
farther down somewhere.

--

Roger Long

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Roger Long wrote:
Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention than
that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was twice as
big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel engines
around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a thread
farther down somewhere.

Diesel is no problem, but probably a little louder. We can use pretty
much any common internal combustion configuration if there is enough
demand.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , www.synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

Take this device, even in prototype form, to any international boat show and
you will be swamped with orders!

Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

--

Roger Long



"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:
Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention
than that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was
twice as big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel
engines around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a
thread farther down somewhere.

Diesel is no problem, but probably a little louder. We can use
pretty much any common internal combustion configuration if there is
enough demand.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , www.synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

--

Roger Long

Of course, you are correct Roger. Diesel would be a "must have" for this
device to be marketable.

Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Roger Long wrote:
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.


I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely
prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic
charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel,
never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that
there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users
and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be
delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a
safer and more reliable, if louder, system.

We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:ahKjf.51455$DL6.20372
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

I would disagree that a diesel version is an absolute requirement. This
clearly has to be used above deck as there's no ventilation of exhaust
fumes. Also, any boat that has diesel most likely has gasoline for dinghy
motors, etc. I would also submit that most non-cruising boats don't carry
spare cans of diesel, whereas they most likely have cans of gasoline. A
gasoline version would be more universal between the diesel and gasoline
powered vessels.

-- Geoff

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Obviously a need for both versions. Cost would be a big factor for me,
Gordon


"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
6...
"Roger Long" wrote in news:ahKjf.51455$DL6.20372
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

I would disagree that a diesel version is an absolute requirement. This
clearly has to be used above deck as there's no ventilation of exhaust
fumes. Also, any boat that has diesel most likely has gasoline for dinghy
motors, etc. I would also submit that most non-cruising boats don't carry
spare cans of diesel, whereas they most likely have cans of gasoline. A
gasoline version would be more universal between the diesel and gasoline
powered vessels.

-- Geoff

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Geoff Schultz wrote:

I would disagree that a diesel version is an absolute requirement. This
clearly has to be used above deck as there's no ventilation of exhaust
fumes. Also, any boat that has diesel most likely has gasoline for dinghy
motors, etc. I would also submit that most non-cruising boats don't carry
spare cans of diesel, whereas they most likely have cans of gasoline. A
gasoline version would be more universal between the diesel and gasoline
powered vessels.

This is sounding like a baby version of the Honda EU1000. Actually,
one of the problems I've heard of with that is that it can't put its
entire output into a charger, so I'd like to see a unit that doesn't
have that problem.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Jeff wrote:

This is sounding like a baby version of the Honda EU1000. Actually,
one of the problems I've heard of with that is that it can't put its
entire output into a charger, so I'd like to see a unit that doesn't
have that problem.

While there are some similarities, there are significant differences.
Our design is capable of automatically starting & stopping, so it can be
left on all night. Our existing design does not incorporate an AC
inverter although we could add one if there was sufficient demand.

Our output is 100% DC, so all power would be available for charging. It
looks like the EU1000 can only put out 100w of DC. Our design could
provide 5x that continuously, in about half the space, weight & noise.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:14:08 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote:

Roger Long wrote:
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.


I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely
prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic
charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel,
never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that
there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users
and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be
delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a
safer and more reliable, if louder, system.

We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil.

I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel
genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat?

Being on deck means that:
1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and
2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat.

My small (26 foot LWL) cruising sailboat has a genset made up of a 523
cc 2-cylinder 7.5 hp diesel engine driving an alternator outputting a
maximum of 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC, with a permanent exhaust
installation. The diesel set, with electronic speed control to suit
the load demand and a three-phase voltage regulator for battery
charging, consumes about 1 litre of fuel per hour. Mass is 100 kg and
noise level is 80dB. Fuel fed from the installed tanks, via the usual
filters. And it's below decks.

And the company assembling (ie putting together the marinized diesel
set, the high output alternator, voltage regulator, electronic engine
speed control, etc) and marketing that unit discontinued it, due to
lack of demand (ie the market is tinier than you think, Chuck, and the
cost of mating together quality components is higher than buyers
expect).

To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be
sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also
that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel
that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at
question.

Cheers

Bil

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Gordon wrote:
Obviously a need for both versions. Cost would be a big factor for me,
Gordon


Given the low production volumes likely for such a product, it would
probably cost about as much as a decent mass-produced 1000w generator.
You would basically be trading output capacity for automatic operation,
smaller size and less noise.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Honda used to make a 500 watt gas generator that was 12 volt or 110 volt. I
have one. I think its about 20 years old.

"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Gordon wrote:
Obviously a need for both versions. Cost would be a big factor for me,
Gordon


Given the low production volumes likely for such a product, it would
probably cost about as much as a decent mass-produced 1000w generator. You
would basically be trading output capacity for automatic operation,
smaller size and less noise.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

In article ,
Chuck Cox wrote:

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

About the only candidates I've seen have inefficient AC/DC refrigerators
in small boats. Those with onboard A/C might find it undersized. At
that, you could have sufficient market, though 500w would be huge
overkill.

In rough numbers, to effectively consume that much power, the boat would
have at least 500 AH capacity. My 55 amp charger rarely runs as high as
20 amps for a few minutes on our 250 AH system. Even the smart charger
doesn't stay that high for much longer.

And it can only be used on the deck unless it's set up to be sparkless
and the exhaust can be piped away from the interior, which eliminates
much of the cruising crowd.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The "battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the "ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating, like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:19:28 -0500, Larry wrote:

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Battery charging is not the only use for electrical energy, Larry. But
I figure you knew that.

250 A at 14VDC is the theoretical maximum output from the genset, with
the diesel set at max rpm. When I specified the battery bank and
genset, I wanted to take advantage of the ability of AGM batts to
absorb charge fast. And the 500 Ah bank of AGMs does (although
efficiency has dropped - they're 5 years old now). I think the biggest
current I've seen when just battery charging is about half of the
theoretical max.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

That's an incredibly cool idea. It might make a hybrid boat concept
work. You could motor under quiet electric power when you wanted
maximum ambiance and have power instantly available without having to
get a diesel started and warmed up. Reverse generation from
freewheeling the prop under sail might be feasible. Solar, windmill,
and any other power would just go into the same pot without separate
systems.

My mind is racing but I'm kind of busy with this boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm

right now as well as the Titanic

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm

post expedition investigation.

Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be
needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a
thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just
about anything.

--

Roger Long



"Larry" wrote in message
...
Bil wrote in
news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current,
and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built
into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The
"battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries
are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be
freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for
easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to
either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the
"ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the
front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect
them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing
charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating,
like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free
wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging
Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Bil wrote in news:eu70p1dt8ckcbgsi7ouhgqtdtb73nle372@
4ax.com:

ability of AGM batts to
absorb charge fast.

Another AGM myth. An AGM battery is exactly the same as any lead-acid
wetcell. It consists of the same plates, the same acid, the same
chemistry, the same physics as the cheapest car battery you can buy.
It's difference is the acid, instead of being a free liquid that can cool
the cell, self-healing, adjustable in gravity and measurable in that
gravity...it's soaked into a fiberglass mat that looks like really thin
gauze and the plates, soft lead that will tolerate being rolled up
tightly, is, in fact rolled up and stuffed into a plastic tube.

Being rolled up tightly in fiberglass, the AGM lacks the wetcell's plate
distortion problems of suspended soft lead, somewhat, and will tolerate a
little higher core temperature, which it must do as there is no cooling
circulation. But, when the red starting AGM in my stepvan tore itself
apart and melted the red plastic case, the results were the same.

Hard charging an AGM produces the same surface charge of lead plating as
hard charging any lead-acid battery without the deeper plating of slow
charging over hours at low current. AGM is not chemical magic or voodoo
as the sales hype tries to justify the awful price.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:LwVjf.51498$DL6.51412
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be
needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a
thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just
about anything.


I was thinking of batteries in the multi-thousand-amp-hour range. Making
a larger battery, of course heavier, adds to the desired ballast weight,
instead of detracting from the ballast's balacing act up in the hull like
we're doing it, now. The bigger/heavier the battery below fore-aft CG,
the better, instead of the other way around. New battery technology
makes it impossible to do any kind of maintenance on the cells, so you
lose nothing in control and gain all that weight below CG.

As to the recharging, these hybrid electric cars are already recovering
power from their powerful dynamic braking and deceleration from the
computer. This same technology could be used on the diesel-electric
propulsion of the boat. The traction motor driving the hull while the
engine is running is merely switched by the computer to powerful
generator service as the prop pitch is adjusted by the computer to
maximize shaft torque constantly during sailing under varying conditions.
Current shaft alternators are just running on luck dragging water over
the fixed prop not designed to be a source of power. I think a lot more
power could be extracted by a computer-controlled, reversible-pitch prop
we're missing out now dragging the screw through the water backwards.

Hybrid vehicle research is paying for the boat propulsion systems of
tomorrow, right now. That new Toshiba Lithium-Ion cell will replace all
these lead-acid, nickel-cadmium/metal hydride or iron, and current
Lithium-Ion technologies in such a propulsion system quite soon. The
ability to recharge the keel battery packs from "dead" level to 100% in
three minutes at some amazing load on the diesel genset, instead of the
piddling use of diesel power with our tiny belt-driven alternators of
today, is going to make electrical power much more efficient very soon.

Of course, getting our "old sailing ship" sailors to overcome their
nostalgia to install such technology may prove daunting. Replacing the
inefficient sails with high powered wind turbines, like on the Jacque
Cousteau vertical turbine ship, has a long way to go. A boat like that
would have power to waste anchored in any wind. No sails would be
necessary and it would power 360 degrees, even dead into the wind.

Whatever happened to that odd-looking ship, anyway? I'll have to do some
net searching, now that I think of it...(c;

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Jere Lull wrote:

In rough numbers, to effectively consume that much power, the boat would
have at least 500 AH capacity. My 55 amp charger rarely runs as high as
20 amps for a few minutes on our 250 AH system. Even the smart charger
doesn't stay that high for much longer.

That's not my experience. I have 4 Trojan 6 Volts, for about 450 Amp
Hours. My charge rate starts at over 100 Amps and spends a lot of
time (close to an hour) over 80. When I get over 80% full the rate
drops fairly fast and I shut it down below before it goes below 50
Amps. I'd rather run 5 minutes tomorrow than 10 today.

If you're only charging at 20 Amps then either you're not very
discharged, or the alternator or regulator is not pushing very hard.


And it can only be used on the deck unless it's set up to be sparkless
and the exhaust can be piped away from the interior, which eliminates
much of the cruising crowd.

Certainly if its automatic, a number of precautions must be taken. I
would use a small genset on deck rather than run the engine, if it
could actually charge at 80 Amps.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Jere Lull wrote:
In article ,
Chuck Cox wrote:


Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.


About the only candidates I've seen have inefficient AC/DC refrigerators
in small boats. Those with onboard A/C might find it undersized. At
that, you could have sufficient market, though 500w would be huge
overkill.

In rough numbers, to effectively consume that much power, the boat would
have at least 500 AH capacity. My 55 amp charger rarely runs as high as
20 amps for a few minutes on our 250 AH system. Even the smart charger
doesn't stay that high for much longer.

And it can only be used on the deck unless it's set up to be sparkless
and the exhaust can be piped away from the interior, which eliminates
much of the cruising crowd.


To protect bilge pump power, I'd put one in the forepeak, hooked to
a cell phone modem voicemessage to automatically call me and let me
know the boat in Bermuda, wherever, needs attention from the marina guy.

It also sounds good for camping, and recharging a battery for the
trolling motor on a CL 16 in the bush, oe even a canoe, IF it had a
manual - auto start off switch. I'd float the thing in a cooler on
a long string if neccessary on a rainy weekend spent under a boom tent.

Sailing is a way to get away, you see, and take it all with you.

Sounds like a great backup for any power, short of the ship's
elevator. Could even recover from a flat starting battery for a
diesel too big to hand crank.

Any gentleman would love to find one in his stocking.

Price? I saw something like that, as big as a bladeless chainsaw,
at CTC for not much.

Terry K

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Bil wrote:

I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel
genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat?

Being on deck means that:
1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and
2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat.

....

To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be
sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also
that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel
that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at
question.


As currently envisioned, our charger should be thought of as more of an
alternative to a small standalone generator, than a built-in generator
like yours. You would only want to deploy it in situations where you
might use a small standalone generator. There is no engineering reason
why it couldn't be built-in, but I'm assuming there would be a much
bigger market for a standalone unit despite the limitations.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical cylinders ?
I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a marina up the
Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago. Don't think it's
there now.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in news:LwVjf.51498$DL6.51412
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
snip


Of course, getting our "old sailing ship" sailors to overcome their
nostalgia to install such technology may prove daunting. Replacing the
inefficient sails with high powered wind turbines, like on the Jacque
Cousteau vertical turbine ship, has a long way to go. A boat like that
would have power to waste anchored in any wind. No sails would be
necessary and it would power 360 degrees, even dead into the wind.

Whatever happened to that odd-looking ship, anyway? I'll have to do some
net searching, now that I think of it...(c;

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Garland Gray II" wrote in
news:zD5kf.26955$ih5.3190@dukeread11:

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical
cylinders ? I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a
marina up the Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago.
Don't think it's there now.



Yeah, that's the one. Has like 4 rotating cylinder sails that catch wind
from any direction to power the boat. The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

I was thinking the drums were perfect cylinders. Maybe not, but I thought
the principle was that wind past the rotating surface created a pressure
differntial. Makes sense, but I can't think there would be much resulting
force.
I might drive up there some dreary day to find what happened to her.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Garland Gray II" wrote in
news:zD5kf.26955$ih5.3190@dukeread11:

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical
cylinders ? I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a
marina up the Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago.
Don't think it's there now.



Yeah, that's the one. Has like 4 rotating cylinder sails that catch wind
from any direction to power the boat. The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Garland Gray II" wrote in
news:PC7kf.26965$ih5.11538@dukeread11:

I was thinking the drums were perfect cylinders. Maybe not, but I
thought the principle was that wind past the rotating surface created
a pressure differntial. Makes sense, but I can't think there would be
much resulting force.
I might drive up there some dreary day to find what happened to her.



No, the "vanes" are, looking at them from the end, cup shaped between the
outer and center, I think. It would make sense if the shape of each of
them were a vertical wing on Bernoulli's Principal with lift as it goes
by the proper wind angle for lift (rotation power).

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:40:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

right now as well as the Titanic

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm

post expedition investigation.

======================================

Roger, you are quoted on CNN tonight regarding the Titanic:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science....ap/index.html

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

You mean "miss-quoted".

I've been getting calls from reporters as far away as Norway and
Brazil. It's nice to be able to chase them away quickly by telling
them I'm under a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, I'd be doing
nothing but talking on the phone.

It's a much better story than the press items indicate. It's going to
be a super show. Don't miss it.

February 26.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:40:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

right now as well as the Titanic

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm

post expedition investigation.

======================================

Roger, you are quoted on CNN tonight regarding the Titanic:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science....ap/index.html

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.


I rememebr the article in Popular Mechanics, or Popular Science several
years ago.

it was interesting indeed!

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:26:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

You mean "miss-quoted".

I've been getting calls from reporters as far away as Norway and
Brazil. It's nice to be able to chase them away quickly by telling
them I'm under a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, I'd be doing
nothing but talking on the phone.

It's a much better story than the press items indicate. It's going to
be a super show. Don't miss it.

February 26.

Good for you, Roger. Nice to see a "local boy" newsgroup poster in the
news in a situation that doesn't involve getting hoisted off a deck by
a helicopter's winch...

R.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:26:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:
You mean "miss-quoted".

I've been getting calls from reporters as far away as Norway and
Brazil. It's nice to be able to chase them away quickly by telling
them I'm under a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, I'd be doing
nothing but talking on the phone.

================================

My experience is that the press hardly ever gets it right when dealing
with technical topics, makes you wonder about the others.

Only the Wall Street Journal even comes close in my opinion.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Chuck Cox wrote:
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...
[snip]
Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

i think this is a good idea. in battery based electrical systems there
has always been a giant gap that needs to be filled in the area of
battery charging with fuel based generators. with solar panels you get
a small charge going into your bank, the same with wind generation,
usually upwards to 200 or 300 watts if you are extremely fortunate.
but if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

so i think this is a great idea for a product, one that's been needed
for a long time. a fuel based battery charger, especially great in
diesel, that will not make a pile of noise, won't generate more than a
few hundred watts of power, and efficiently turns fuel into battery
charge. what's not to like about that.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.
diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering. and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

I too think this is a good idea and if the price was right, would buy
one. We built something similar to use on an island once, but it was
petrol powered and quite noisy, plus relatively inefficient. Used a
motorcycle permanent magnet alternator.

PDW

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing.

Ahhh....a refreshing voice of SENSE in the background noise.....

A solution might be:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...elName=eu1000i
I love mine. We took it to sea and out on local cruises many times.
It's so quiet and so easy on fuel. With its 12V 8A internal charger
hooked to the 12V bus plus the boat's dual 10A Guest charger running off
its rock-solid 60 Hz, 120VAC inverter power, it never left its low-speed
econo mode until someone lit off the microwave. The .6 US Gallon tank
easily runs 8 hours with that kind of load. I don't know what it runs on
that lean. The fuel system is sealed tight once you've shut off the vent
in the cap to store it, too.

I used it as a shop heater inside the stepvan when it's cold in winter,
in addition to a power supply. I welded a galvanized pipe nipple to the
little nubbin of an outlet on the muffler so I could connect some copper
tubing to the exhaust. The tubing is left in a coil that radiates heat
like mad before the cold exhaust dripping with moisture is fed through a
hole in the truck's floor outside. This way, I recover nearly 100% of
the energy from the little fuel tank as heat or power. The cooling air
recycles inside the truck and doesn't set off my CO alarm, at all. Sure
makes the shop toasty warm on a cold morning for a little mechanical
noise and a tiny bit of gas...(c;

It's a Honda, so it always starts on the first easy pull..... Anchored
with it on the bow, you can hardly hear it running inside the cabin. At
sea with it running on the stern and the exhaust pointed aft, it makes
about the same noise as the waves....Just bungie the big handle to the
stern rail by the beer cooler...

I've also connected its DC charging output directly to a thermoelectric
ice chest, just to see how it will pull that load. It's not made for
this service, but the Igloo DC cooler doesn't seem to mind. If anything,
the fan runs a little faster than it does on a battery. The voltage open
circuit is around 17VDC but drops fast from its internal resistance when
the load comes on. It's not regulated or filtered, just rectified high
frequency, multiphase AC off the flywheel coil banks that run it all....

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is
designing what amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting
gasoline battery charger. The charger is designed to be
portable, unobtrusive and easy to maintain. If the battery has
sufficient charge, it can self-start, but it can also be
hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery
charged.

I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
.. . .

JimB

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

purple_stars wrote:

if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

That is exactly our thinking too. By optimizing the system for charging
only, we can maximize efficiency. Our biggest advantage is that we have
a fixed load and can optimize the system for a very narrow operating
range in terms of speed and power. Although we are using an
off-the-shelf motor, we expect to use custom induction & exhaust systems
in order to maximize efficiency and minimize noise and size.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.

As a small business, we can only afford to design, manufacture and
support one configuration initially. I'm trying to figure out which
configuration would be our best first shot.

diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering.

Our intention is to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible.
However, most of the parts probably won't be found in a typical marine
catalog because I don't think there are too many 1 hp marine
diesel-electric applications. For example, I suspect any fuel filter or
fuel pump you find in a marine catalog is going to be far too large for
our application. The upside is that you won't have to pay marine prices
for replacement parts.

and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

There really won't be a "Start" button. There will only be "On/Off" and
the charger will decide when to start and stop. When you suggest this
feature, are you thinking of a built-in or stand-alone configuation? I
think this would be required in a built-in configuration, but for a
stand-alone configuration, I'm inclined to forgoe the additional expense
unless it provides a significant benefit.

Thanks for your feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases. A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you? Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Thanks for the feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
 

News f2s wrote:
I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

On the other hand, since we will be operating at only one speed, we can
optimize our noise reduction, so it will be quieter than a
variable-speed motor.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Yes, the system is designed to operate at an optimal output power. It
should only start when the batteries are low enough to take a full
charge and shutdown when the load drops. It isn't designed to do
trickle or variable charging.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

This brings up another question; should we incorporate an intelligent
charger or should we interface with an existing external charger? If
your batteries are already connected to a charging system, it will only
confuse things if we try to operate two independent changing systems
simultaneously. My assumption is that most potential users of this
charger already have a charging system onboard. Is this a valid
assumption? I have no experience with off-the-shelf marine chargers,
can they even be interfaced with an external power source?


A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
. . .

Because of the binary nature of our system, we don't intend on taking
the batteries to full charge, just to the point where they can no longer
take full charging current. This is the most efficient way to operate
our system since it is optimized to deliver a specific output power and
will lose efficiency at lower output levels.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK