Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention than
that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was twice as
big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel engines
around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a thread
farther down somewhere.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention than
that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was twice as
big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel engines
around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a thread
farther down somewhere.

Diesel is no problem, but probably a little louder. We can use pretty
much any common internal combustion configuration if there is enough
demand.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , www.synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

--

Roger Long



"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:
Cool.

But, it needs to be diesel before it will get any more attention
than that from many of us. I would want diesel even if it was
twice as big as a shoebox and heavier. There are some small diesel
engines around. I asked the question not long ago and there is a
thread farther down somewhere.

Diesel is no problem, but probably a little louder. We can use
pretty much any common internal combustion configuration if there is
enough demand.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , www.synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.

--

Roger Long

Of course, you are correct Roger. Diesel would be a "must have" for this
device to be marketable.

Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

Roger Long wrote:
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.


I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely
prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic
charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel,
never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that
there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users
and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be
delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a
safer and more reliable, if louder, system.

We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:14:08 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote:

Roger Long wrote:
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.


I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely
prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic
charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel,
never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that
there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users
and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be
delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a
safer and more reliable, if louder, system.

We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil.

I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel
genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat?

Being on deck means that:
1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and
2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat.

My small (26 foot LWL) cruising sailboat has a genset made up of a 523
cc 2-cylinder 7.5 hp diesel engine driving an alternator outputting a
maximum of 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC, with a permanent exhaust
installation. The diesel set, with electronic speed control to suit
the load demand and a three-phase voltage regulator for battery
charging, consumes about 1 litre of fuel per hour. Mass is 100 kg and
noise level is 80dB. Fuel fed from the installed tanks, via the usual
filters. And it's below decks.

And the company assembling (ie putting together the marinized diesel
set, the high output alternator, voltage regulator, electronic engine
speed control, etc) and marketing that unit discontinued it, due to
lack of demand (ie the market is tinier than you think, Chuck, and the
cost of mating together quality components is higher than buyers
expect).

To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be
sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also
that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel
that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at
question.

Cheers

Bil

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The "battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the "ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating, like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:19:28 -0500, Larry wrote:

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Battery charging is not the only use for electrical energy, Larry. But
I figure you knew that.

250 A at 14VDC is the theoretical maximum output from the genset, with
the diesel set at max rpm. When I specified the battery bank and
genset, I wanted to take advantage of the ability of AGM batts to
absorb charge fast. And the 500 Ah bank of AGMs does (although
efficiency has dropped - they're 5 years old now). I think the biggest
current I've seen when just battery charging is about half of the
theoretical max.

That's an incredibly cool idea. It might make a hybrid boat concept
work. You could motor under quiet electric power when you wanted
maximum ambiance and have power instantly available without having to
get a diesel started and warmed up. Reverse generation from
freewheeling the prop under sail might be feasible. Solar, windmill,
and any other power would just go into the same pot without separate
systems.

My mind is racing but I'm kind of busy with this boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm

right now as well as the Titanic

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm

post expedition investigation.

Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be
needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a
thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just
about anything.

--

Roger Long



"Larry" wrote in message
...
Bil wrote in
news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current,
and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built
into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The
"battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries
are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be
freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for
easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to
either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the
"ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the
front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect
them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing
charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating,
like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free
wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging
Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

Bil wrote:

I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel
genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat?

Being on deck means that:
1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and
2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat.

....

To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be
sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also
that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel
that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at
question.


As currently envisioned, our charger should be thought of as more of an
alternative to a small standalone generator, than a built-in generator
like yours. You would only want to deploy it in situations where you
might use a small standalone generator. There is no engineering reason
why it couldn't be built-in, but I'm assuming there would be a much
bigger market for a standalone unit despite the limitations.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems
, , synchro.com
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK.