"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:05:41 -0500, "Garland Gray II"
wrote:

Do you really think a swivel is necessary ? Unless you are anchored for a
long time in a tidal current I wonder if it helps or hurts.

==============================================

I have found it necessary with an all chain rode and a windlass. This
is my second boat with that combination and have ended up adding a
swivel both times to avoid chain hockling and to ensure that the
anchor comes up straight over the pulpit roller and in the right
orientation.


I just don't get it - not that I'm disputing it, as many seem to have the
same problem...

From my limited perspective, it seems you'd have to be in a whirlpool, or on
the hook for months with a consistent direction of turn, to put any notable
number of turns on a chain.

Then, unless you've got a hundred feet out in a 10' anchorage, as you
brought up the anchor, just letting it hang a bit once it comes off the
bottom should unwind any turns you've accumulated.

If you've got substantial chain on the bottom, a swivel won't do you any
good until you tighten up, anyway, CF raising and waiting above.

What am I missing?

L8R

Skip, not experienced with that problem despite all-chain rodes

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

That is exactly what I've got, yet I've had no problem w/ twisting. The
concensus of others in another group is those who have a problem w/
twisting, also have a swivel.
But I won't argue w/ you : if you have a problem w/ twisting, you must have
a problem.
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:05:41 -0500, "Garland Gray II"
wrote:

Do you really think a swivel is necessary ? Unless you are anchored for a
long time in a tidal current I wonder if it helps or hurts.

==============================================

I have found it necessary with an all chain rode and a windlass. This
is my second boat with that combination and have ended up adding a
swivel both times to avoid chain hockling and to ensure that the
anchor comes up straight over the pulpit roller and in the right
orientation.

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:39:57 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:
From my limited perspective, it seems you'd have to be in a whirlpool, or on
the hook for months with a consistent direction of turn, to put any notable
number of turns on a chain.

That is definitely not the cause. We are rarely anchored more than a
day or two at a time, and hardly ever in whirlpools!

Then, unless you've got a hundred feet out in a 10' anchorage, as you
brought up the anchor, just letting it hang a bit once it comes off the
bottom should unwind any turns you've accumulated.


I believe that part of the problem occurrs when retrieving chain.

There seem to be some circumstances where the bow roller itself is a
possible culprit, trying to impart a small rotational force, probably
when the pull is slightly to one side.

There is another situation that can arise if you have a rode that is
partially 3 strand and partially chain. Under load, the 3 strand does
a certain amount of twisting and untwisting. That was an issue on my
old boat, and a swivel solved the problem.

If you've got substantial chain on the bottom, a swivel won't do you any
good until you tighten up, anyway, CF raising and waiting above.

What am I missing?

My biggest issue is with the anchor trying to come over the bow roller
sideways or backwards. This may be specific to my particular
configuration, but a swivel is definitely the cure.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:39:57 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote (earlier, quoted "" below):
I believe that part of the problem occurrs when retrieving chain.

There seem to be some circumstances where the bow roller itself is a
possible culprit, trying to impart a small rotational force, probably
when the pull is slightly to one side.

Hm. From the description, I infer a "catenary" twist - that is, the twist
is one way at one point and the other way going in the reverse - a twist
imparted by the roller. In that case, twist would interfere with the
retrieval immediately, and waiting for the swivel wouldn't make a
difference, as the windlass-roller twist wouldn't be influenced by the
roller-swivel portion (?) .

There is another situation that can arise if you have a rode that is
partially 3 strand and partially chain. Under load, the 3 strand does
a certain amount of twisting and untwisting. That was an issue on my
old boat, and a swivel solved the problem.

Agreed, 3-strand will most likely twist under load - but if you're
retrieving it under load, the 3-strand would bunch horribly in the locker,
I'd think, as the strain was relieved and the memory recovered the twists
(?) .

If you've got substantial chain on the bottom, a swivel won't do you any
good until you tighten up, anyway, CF raising and waiting above.

What am I missing?

My biggest issue is with the anchor trying to come over the bow roller
sideways or backwards. This may be specific to my particular
configuration, but a swivel is definitely the cure.

Hm. How (unless you're referring to just hanging, rather than kedging with
the windlass) would you get to sideways or backwards retrieval?

My modus only (not that others don't, but it's how I do it), I have the boat
go straight on the rode, not retrieving until it's very slack. If I
overshoot a bit, I wait to blow down, and then resume. Whether in my
chartering days, when it was always mostly 3-strand with minimal chain, or
privately owned boats, when it was always all chain, I've never had a
problem with twist. In the rare instance where I encounter an overlay, I
simply back it out the foot or so to let it go back over the roller and
start again.

As to the anchor itself, we have a CQR, and the weight always puts it nose
down, even if it tries to come aboard otherwise.

So, has Glenn succeeded in destroying any of these to see about their
strength relative to the chain itself? I read of many boats surviving
hurricanes whose chains are so distorted they'll no longer fit in the gypsy,
so I expect these swivels would cause serious deformation, or even failure,
of the chain before breaking, themselves. It also seems that putting a
serious load on, and then inducing twist, would be needed to do a
"true-life" test...

L8R

Skip, in 2xweekly rehab, and coming along toward return to the boat for more
work. New March and Post-July pix for those following, in the "Projects"
folder...


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:23:24 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

So, has Glenn succeeded in destroying any of these to see about their
strength relative to the chain itself? I read of many boats surviving
hurricanes whose chains are so distorted they'll no longer fit in the gypsy,
so I expect these swivels would cause serious deformation, or even failure,
of the chain before breaking, themselves. It also seems that putting a
serious load on, and then inducing twist, would be needed to do a
"true-life" test...

=================================

I guess we'll have to wait and here from Glenn on the testing. The
European stainless steel unit that someone recommended cost around
$300 so it's not likely we'll see much "testing to destruction" on
that one. I'd have some concerns about mixing a stainless swivel with
galvanized chain and anchor in any case.

If the chain distorts but you and the boat survive the hurricane,
that's a small price to pay in my opinion. With 3/8 HT chain the
difference between SWL (no permanent distortion), and ultimate
breaking strength is about 10,000 lbs so it is easy to see how that
could happen.

I have contacted several swivel sources to send me test samples. The
manufacturers have been fairly cooperative but the importers and
distributors have been less interested so I will probably not be able to
test every model.

I did get a chance to pull an $80 Anchorlift stainless swivel and a length
of ACCO and Campbell 3/8" HT (Grade 43 galvanized) over the weekend. The
Anchorlift swivel fits the Spade S140 well and is rated for a working load
of 12,500 pounds. We pulled it to the working load because I didn't want to
destroy it and it deformed only a little. Overall length before the test
was 3.782" and after it was 3.787". The pins were still straight. I hope
to get in at least 3 or 4 more swivels in the next week or so and will test
them when they get here. Anchorlift swivels are available he
http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xca...r_Swivels.html

3/8" Grade 43 chain is rated 5,400 lb working load and 16,200 minimum
breaking strength. Both stress/strain curves were almost identical straight
lines to about 11,000 pounds then they yielded and eventually broke at
16,800 for the Campbell and 17,200 for the ACCO.

The interesting part was that there were 2 yield points and that the curve
was "almost straight.". The first yield point was at about 6,500 lb. We saw
a small blip and stopped to check if our mounting slipped. What had
happened was that the zinc between the links collapsed. After resuming the
test the line curved upwards. This was caused by the round links flattening
out against each other. I did not try to measure the links but I suspect
that the chain may have trouble fitting the notches in a chain wheel
smoothly before it reaches the actual yield point. Once past the yield
point you will need to buy new chain. However, if I were in a blow that put
10,000 pounds of load on my rode, retrieving the chain would be the last of
my worries. :-)

One interesting thing to note: While ACCO seems to be the recreational
marine standard, the Campbell Grade 43 hot dip galvanized is virtually the
same product. The ACCO galvanizing MAY be a little thicker but I could
measure no difference. Campbell chain is carried by many more industrial
supply houses than ACCO so it is easier to find locally without having to
pay truck shipping and it is usually 15 to 20% less expensive.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:23:24 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

So, has Glenn succeeded in destroying any of these to see about their
strength relative to the chain itself? I read of many boats surviving
hurricanes whose chains are so distorted they'll no longer fit in the
gypsy,
so I expect these swivels would cause serious deformation, or even
failure,
of the chain before breaking, themselves. It also seems that putting a
serious load on, and then inducing twist, would be needed to do a
"true-life" test...

=================================

I guess we'll have to wait and here from Glenn on the testing. The
European stainless steel unit that someone recommended cost around
$300 so it's not likely we'll see much "testing to destruction" on
that one. I'd have some concerns about mixing a stainless swivel with
galvanized chain and anchor in any case.

If the chain distorts but you and the boat survive the hurricane,
that's a small price to pay in my opinion. With 3/8 HT chain the
difference between SWL (no permanent distortion), and ultimate
breaking strength is about 10,000 lbs so it is easy to see how that
could happen.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:32:23 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Campbell chain is carried by many more industrial
supply houses than ACCO so it is easier to find locally without having to
pay truck shipping and it is usually 15 to 20% less expensive.

==================================

I was able to get free shipping and a decent price on Acco chain from
a company in Indiana (actually drop shipped from PA as I recall):

1ST CHAIN SUPPLY, Div. of MPI
797 W. COMMERCIAL AVE.
LOWELL, IN 46356

http://www.1st-chainsupply.com/

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:32:23 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

The
Anchorlift swivel fits the Spade S140 well and is rated for a working load
of 12,500 pounds.

========================

Would it fit an S200 ?

Had to go try it to make sure. The answer is a definite maybe. I have
three S200s in stock and tried all of them. It fit fine on 2 of them but
not the third. If you want to buy one and try it I will buy it off you if
it doesn't work.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Wayne.B" wrote
Glenn Ashmore wrote:

The
Anchorlift swivel fits the Spade S140 well and is rated for a working load
of 12,500 pounds.

========================

Would it fit an S200 ?

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:24:12 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Had to go try it to make sure. The answer is a definite maybe. I have
three S200s in stock and tried all of them. It fit fine on 2 of them but
not the third. If you want to buy one and try it I will buy it off you if
it doesn't work.

==========================

I assume you are using their model # 964410?