On serious bilge pumping........
 

We had occasion two weekends ago to reconsider the matter of removing
large amounts of water from a boat in a hurry. This event caused by
crossing inside of the green day mark #3 marking the Middle Ground ledge
in Woods Hole, MA.

While the events leading up to this are still being debated among those
onboard, part of the problem appeared to be a fixation on the part of
the skipper/helmsman with electronic charting over the real world. If
the course had been adjusted when the alarm had first been raised,(by
humans) or the second or third time, there would have been no incident
to reflect on.

Driving a 20,000 lb, 38 foot sloop drawing about 6 feet over a ledge
with 3 or 4 feet of water over it is an experience I would not wish to
repeat. The full keel and skeg hung rudder took the brunt of the impact
and the bottom of the ruder skeg with it's gudgeon were left on the
ledge (presumably).

The rudder dropped straight down and the now two extra feet of leverage
given overcame the strength of the interface between the rudder's
stuffing box and the hull, ripping open a 2-3 inch hole, depending on
where the rudder/shaft assembly was leaning at any given moment.


The two 2500 GPH bilge pumps were immediately overwhelmed. It is a
sobering sight to see salt water rising inexorably toward the air intake
on a diesel engine. In the confusion, I could not decipher which hose was
the raw water intake to add the engine cooling capacity to the bilge
pumping (and I did not wish to risk my hands in the belts of the dual
alternators). During this, others managed to leverage the rudder
quadrant/shaft into the upright position, mostly closing the hole, and
slowing the ingress of water to a point where the pumps could almost
hold their own. The arrival of a local fisherman in response to the
radio call was comforting, in that a tow line kept us from additional
impact with other natural hard spots in the passage.

The Coast Guard 41 footer has impressive dewatering capabilities in both
portable and built in pumps. We only needed the portable gas pump to
establish equilibrium. It was a long 30 minutes until they arrived from
their training mission off of Edgartown, however.

Once we were dewatered, and all the floorboard hatches were put back in
place (they tend to float off at some point) TowBoat US took over. While
our pumps were mostly capable of holding us while we were under tow to a
boat yard, they had put aboard two of these:
http://www.starmarinedepot.com/detai...duct_id=RU1416

You have to look a little harder to find these to purchase, than the
2500 gph, but I think one will be high on my list of must haves for the
coming years. It is interesting to look at the loss due to "lift" and
voltage, even this powerful appearing pump actually has. 6 foot lift
would not be uncommon in a boat that has standing headroom in the cabin.
Between lift and the voltage drop to 12v vs 13.5 when an engine is
running, even this pumps capacity gets reduced by about 30%

Just thought I'd share.

Jonathan


--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Ah, that brings back the memories. It was a hoot sitting in my
waterfront office at Woods Hole Oceanographic and watching boats hit
and miss that ledge. People would come down with the tide behind them
alarmed at the shore going by faster than the boat usually could move.
They would throttle back, and back, and back trying to slow down until
they were dead in the water and then wonder why nothing happened when
they turned the wheel to swing into the right channel.

Others would come down that nice lane of red and green buoys without a
chart and then head between the next red and green they saw. It's
just that one is in one channel and the other in the opposite leg.

Some of us once worked through a Labor Day weekend just so we could
watch the show.

I remember a big Dutch botter yacht towing a fair size I/O powerboat
with an outboard behind that and then a dinghy. He got fooled by the
current, slowed below steerageway, hit the buoy just before the ledge
broadside, bounced off, and then towed the whole assemblage upstream
and around the buoy (he must have used stout towlines) as the current
carried him before sticking briefly on the ledge and then heading off
into Vineyard Sound like he did this every day.

I wonder if there is a spot in New England where more boats, many with
very experienced skippers, have come to grief.

--

Roger Long

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Roger Long wrote:

Ah, that brings back the memories. It was a hoot sitting in my
waterfront office at Woods Hole Oceanographic and watching boats hit
and miss that ledge. People would come down with the tide behind them
alarmed at the shore going by faster than the boat usually could move.
They would throttle back, and back, and back trying to slow down until
they were dead in the water and then wonder why nothing happened when
they turned the wheel to swing into the right channel.

Others would come down that nice lane of red and green buoys without a
chart and then head between the next red and green they saw. It's
just that one is in one channel and the other in the opposite leg.

Some of us once worked through a Labor Day weekend just so we could
watch the show.

I remember a big Dutch botter yacht towing a fair size I/O powerboat
with an outboard behind that and then a dinghy. He got fooled by the
current, slowed below steerageway, hit the buoy just before the ledge
broadside, bounced off, and then towed the whole assemblage upstream
and around the buoy (he must have used stout towlines) as the current
carried him before sticking briefly on the ledge and then heading off
into Vineyard Sound like he did this every day.

I wonder if there is a spot in New England where more boats, many with
very experienced skippers, have come to grief.


Yes, the CG was pretty blasÈ about the whole thing. Their remark, "Oh,
we get about one a week in season, it's been a little slow the last few
weeks."

I kept thinking, "He's gonna turn now, he's gonna turn now". But, he
didn't He later said that when the "picture finally "clicked" into his
head, he was afraid of getting swept into the daymark and adding
tangling the rigging, bringing down the rig, on top of the now certain
collision.

So he figured the strongest part of the boat was probably the leading
edge of the keel anyway.

The prelim estimate is 25K on the boat, he paid 60K for, just about 20
hours earlier. Ouch.....

Jonathan


--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Jonathan W. wrote:

We had occasion two weekends ago to reconsider the matter of removing
large amounts of water from a boat in a hurry. This event caused by
crossing inside of the green day mark #3 marking the Middle Ground ledge
in Woods Hole, MA.

While the events leading up to this are still being debated among those
onboard, part of the problem appeared to be a fixation on the part of
the skipper/helmsman with electronic charting over the real world. If
the course had been adjusted when the alarm had first been raised,(by
humans) or the second or third time, there would have been no incident
to reflect on.

Driving a 20,000 lb, 38 foot sloop drawing about 6 feet over a ledge
with 3 or 4 feet of water over it is an experience I would not wish to
repeat. The full keel and skeg hung rudder took the brunt of the impact
and the bottom of the ruder skeg with it's gudgeon were left on the
ledge (presumably).

The rudder dropped straight down and the now two extra feet of leverage
given overcame the strength of the interface between the rudder's
stuffing box and the hull, ripping open a 2-3 inch hole, depending on
where the rudder/shaft assembly was leaning at any given moment.


The two 2500 GPH bilge pumps were immediately overwhelmed. It is a
sobering sight to see salt water rising inexorably toward the air intake
on a diesel engine. In the confusion, I could not decipher which hose was
the raw water intake to add the engine cooling capacity to the bilge
pumping (and I did not wish to risk my hands in the belts of the dual
alternators). During this, others managed to leverage the rudder
quadrant/shaft into the upright position, mostly closing the hole, and
slowing the ingress of water to a point where the pumps could almost
hold their own. The arrival of a local fisherman in response to the
radio call was comforting, in that a tow line kept us from additional
impact with other natural hard spots in the passage.

The Coast Guard 41 footer has impressive dewatering capabilities in both
portable and built in pumps. We only needed the portable gas pump to
establish equilibrium. It was a long 30 minutes until they arrived from
their training mission off of Edgartown, however.

Once we were dewatered, and all the floorboard hatches were put back in
place (they tend to float off at some point) TowBoat US took over. While
our pumps were mostly capable of holding us while we were under tow to a
boat yard, they had put aboard two of these:
http://www.starmarinedepot.com/detai...duct_id=RU1416

You have to look a little harder to find these to purchase, than the
2500 gph, but I think one will be high on my list of must haves for the
coming years. It is interesting to look at the loss due to "lift" and
voltage, even this powerful appearing pump actually has. 6 foot lift
would not be uncommon in a boat that has standing headroom in the cabin.
Between lift and the voltage drop to 12v vs 13.5 when an engine is
running, even this pumps capacity gets reduced by about 30%

Just thought I'd share.

Jonathan


Interesting point. I built a "golf club" bilge pump, so I can empty
the dinghy without getting into it. It has a small battery pack
from a bag phone, and I though to improve it's operation my adding a
flexible tail long enough to drop in the water whilst in use. The
effect on pumping capacity was remarkable. The "down" side of the
hose helps with a syphon effect to reduce the workload on the tiny
bilge pump at the end of the stiff pipe handle. Now, the only work
the pump does is effectively to move the water sideways, not up.

All bilge pumps would benefit from this configuration, but
permanently fixed bilge pumps so arranged must include a vented
loop, defeating the syphon assist, it seems, and, I might add,
rightly so, unless diligently supervised. So much for safety
regulations.

Your pump would be more efficient if it has a tail down to the water
to be used only while actually trying not to sink. Unattended pumps
must not offer any possibility of syphoning water into the boat.


Terry K

On serious bilge pumping........
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:41:53 -0500, "Jonathan W."
wrote:

We had occasion two weekends ago to reconsider the matter of removing
large amounts of water from a boat in a hurry. This event caused by
crossing inside of the green day mark #3 marking the Middle Ground ledge
in Woods Hole, MA.

Thanks for another instructive lesson on why eyes trump electronics.

You were lucky and you didn't lose your head, which probably saved
your boat.

Did you consider fothering a sail around the stern, or did you know
that you could restore the rudder?

R.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Jonathan W. wrote:
snip...

Driving a 20,000 lb, 38 foot sloop drawing about 6 feet over a ledge
with 3 or 4 feet of water over it is an experience I would not wish to
repeat. The full keel and skeg hung rudder took the brunt of the impact
and the bottom of the ruder skeg with it's gudgeon were left on the
ledge (presumably).

The rudder dropped straight down and the now two extra feet of leverage
given overcame the strength of the interface between the rudder's
stuffing box and the hull, ripping open a 2-3 inch hole, depending on
where the rudder/shaft assembly was leaning at any given moment.

snip...

We did the same thing with a Viking 28 about 5 years ago. I was at the
helm but blame it on the owner because he insisted we sail up a narrow
channel with the wind on our nose. I went a bit wide past the red buoy
while tacking and ran into a large boulder field. What a sound smashing
into boulder after boulder while trying to sail out forcing the boat to
heel as much as possible. Luckily we weren't traveling too fast and
suffered no permanent damage.
Another time ran into a ledge during a regatta race opposite our
clubhouse on a Mirage 33. Had to be towed off in fromt of the entire
fleet.....oh the humanity! Again damage minimal.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:14:23 -0500, "Jonathan W."
wrote:

The prelim estimate is 25K on the boat, he paid 60K for, just about 20
hours earlier. Ouch.....

===================================

The insurance company is going to love that. Hope he has an iron clad
binder in place.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Yoe Don where were you Halifax Harbor or Mahone Bay or Prospect?? What
ledge. Mooron will probably wish to know. Ha Ha.

Don White wrote:

Jonathan W. wrote:
snip...

Driving a 20,000 lb, 38 foot sloop drawing about 6 feet over a ledge
with 3 or 4 feet of water over it is an experience I would not wish to
repeat. The full keel and skeg hung rudder took the brunt of the impact
and the bottom of the ruder skeg with it's gudgeon were left on the
ledge (presumably).

The rudder dropped straight down and the now two extra feet of leverage
given overcame the strength of the interface between the rudder's
stuffing box and the hull, ripping open a 2-3 inch hole, depending on
where the rudder/shaft assembly was leaning at any given moment.

snip...

We did the same thing with a Viking 28 about 5 years ago. I was at the
helm but blame it on the owner because he insisted we sail up a narrow
channel with the wind on our nose. I went a bit wide past the red buoy
while tacking and ran into a large boulder field. What a sound smashing
into boulder after boulder while trying to sail out forcing the boat to
heel as much as possible. Luckily we weren't traveling too fast and
suffered no permanent damage.
Another time ran into a ledge during a regatta race opposite our
clubhouse on a Mirage 33. Had to be towed off in fromt of the entire
fleet.....oh the humanity! Again damage minimal.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Jonathan W. wrote:
We had occasion two weekends ago to reconsider the matter of removing
large amounts of water from a boat in a hurry. This event caused by
crossing inside of the green day mark #3 marking the Middle Ground ledge
in Woods Hole, MA.

While the events leading up to this are still being debated among those
onboard, part of the problem appeared to be a fixation on the part of
the skipper/helmsman with electronic charting over the real world. If
the course had been adjusted when the alarm had first been raised,(by
humans) or the second or third time, there would have been no incident
to reflect on.

...

Thanks for the description. I go through there several times a year
and each time I have to remind my crew that things will come at us
very fast. First of all, its hard to appreciate what a 6 knot current
can do. And the chart normally used is a much larger scale than most
people are used to; the marks at the corner are only about 75 yards
apart. Normally, you can figure it out as you go, but this is a spot
best handled at slack the first time through.

The first time I let my wife take the helm she made the turn OK, but
then looked over her shoulder, marveling at the buoy being pulled
over. In that second we were swept across the channel almost into Nun 2.

I've learned to give everyone a *very* wide berth there.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Dry wrote:
Yoe Don where were you Halifax Harbor or Mahone Bay or Prospect?? What
ledge. Mooron will probably wish to know. Ha Ha.


Ist time in the Viking was off Barrie's Beach, Eastern Passage.(south of
Lawler Island.
The second time, in the Mirage 33 was at a 'Dr. ???'s ledge', East side
of the Northwest Arm opposite the Royal NS Yacht Squadron.

The one other time we grounded with me aboard was just north of Barrie's
Beach on a sandbar as we were preparing to enter the narrow channelfrom
the South. A large fishing boat was motoring south and our helmsman got
nervous..edging too far over to Starboard. We were able to power off.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Jonathan,

I have a contractor's "mud pump" that I purchased at Harbor Freight.
It is a large centrifugal pump with 2 inch intake and discharge
attached to a 3 HP [or maybe 5 HP] gasoline engine. I got a long
wire-reinforced plastic hose from a local industrial supplier for the
intake. I got a fire hose for the discharge.

I used it during Hurricane Isabel to help "dewater" some boats at the
marina where my boat is slipped. It was pretty powerful, sucking the
water out rather quickly. I do not know how many gallons per minute
it is supposed to pump, but in the real world it pumped a lot.

I also purchased a fire-hose nozzle for the discharge. This will
allow me to use it to put out fires if necessary.

I have not had to use the pump on my boat yet. But one time I did
start taking on water and it sure was reassuring to know that if I
could not solve the problem quickly I could crank up the pump to keep
a problem from turning into a crisis.

As best I recall the pump and hoses cost me around $250 total.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
on the hard at Bock Marine
Beaufort, NC

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Jonathan,

I also meant to share with you another thing I have done to help in a
situation like you found yourself. I installed a Y valve in the
raw-water intake for the engine. One side of the Y goes to the normal
thru-hull. The other side of the Y is attached to a long,
wire-reinforced plastic hose. Most of the time the Y valve is set to
draw water from the thru-hull side. In case of an emergency I can
quickly and easily switch the Y valve to the other side and put the
hose into the bilge, thus using the engine as an extra bilge pump.

The arrangement is also useful when it is time to winterize the
engine. I fill up a container with antifreeze, put the hose into the
container, switch the Y valve, and within seconds the raw-water system
is filled with antifreeze.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
on the hard at Bock Marine
Beaufort, NC

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Lee Huddleston wrote:

Jonathan,

I also meant to share with you another thing I have done to help in a
situation like you found yourself. I installed a Y valve in the
raw-water intake for the engine. One side of the Y goes to the normal
thru-hull. The other side of the Y is attached to a long,
wire-reinforced plastic hose. Most of the time the Y valve is set to
draw water from the thru-hull side. In case of an emergency I can
quickly and easily switch the Y valve to the other side and put the
hose into the bilge, thus using the engine as an extra bilge pump.

The arrangement is also useful when it is time to winterize the
engine. I fill up a container with antifreeze, put the hose into the
container, switch the Y valve, and within seconds the raw-water system
is filled with antifreeze.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
on the hard at Bock Marine
Beaufort, NC



The boat in question is not mine,I was a passenger/crew.

Though, I note, my boat does in fact have a Y valve set up similar to
what you describe.

My Alberg 35 doesn't have a storage space big enough for a trash pump,
engine and hose, but the Rule pump Towboat US brought aboard would fit
away easily.

I've cited it because I'd never seen one before, didn't know it existed.

The Coast Guard's trash pump worked very well :)

Jonathan

--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Lee Huddleston wrote:
I also meant to share with you another thing I have done to help in a
situation like you found yourself. I installed a Y valve in the
raw-water intake for the engine.

That's a really good idea, especially if you can mount the
Y-valve where it is easily accessible. The "inside" suction
should be mounted to a large & strong strainer.

.... One side of the Y goes to the normal
thru-hull. The other side of the Y is attached to a long,
wire-reinforced plastic hose. Most of the time the Y valve is set to
draw water from the thru-hull side. In case of an emergency I can
quickly and easily switch the Y valve to the other side and put the
hose into the bilge, thus using the engine as an extra bilge pump.


Not sure if I like the idea of the flex hose, why would you
ever want to put an engine raw water pump suction to a
movable hose?


The arrangement is also useful when it is time to winterize the
engine. I fill up a container with antifreeze, put the hose into the
container, switch the Y valve, and within seconds the raw-water system
is filled with antifreeze.


That's a bit drastic, you can pour it full of antifreeze
easily if you put a small plug or cock at a high point in
the piping... I use the plug that hold the zinc in one of
the heat exchangers.

Aside fromt that, one of the nice things about NC is you
really don't have to winterize if you don't want to.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On serious bilge pumping........
 

DSK wrote:
Lee Huddleston wrote:

I also meant to share with you another thing I have done to help in a
situation like you found yourself. I installed a Y valve in the
raw-water intake for the engine.


That's a really good idea, especially if you can mount the Y-valve where
it is easily accessible. The "inside" suction should be mounted to a
large & strong strainer.

.... One side of the Y goes to the normal
thru-hull. The other side of the Y is attached to a long,
wire-reinforced plastic hose. Most of the time the Y valve is set to
draw water from the thru-hull side. In case of an emergency I can
quickly and easily switch the Y valve to the other side and put the
hose into the bilge, thus using the engine as an extra bilge pump.


Not sure if I like the idea of the flex hose, why would you ever want to
put an engine raw water pump suction to a movable hose?


The arrangement is also useful when it is time to winterize the
engine. I fill up a container with antifreeze, put the hose into the
container, switch the Y valve, and within seconds the raw-water system
is filled with antifreeze.


That's a bit drastic, you can pour it full of antifreeze easily if you
put a small plug or cock at a high point in the piping... I use the plug
that hold the zinc in one of the heat exchangers.

Aside fromt that, one of the nice things about NC is you really don't
have to winterize if you don't want to.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

My boat has a Y valve to direct raw water suction to the bilge. It does
work as a bilge pump but was put there to rinse the raw water side of
the cooling system with fresh water. In extremis if the bilge pumps
couldn't keep up it is one more option.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Although I've run this passage in different boats, my best memories are of
trips in the "Prudence" when taking her from Hyannis to Kelley's boatyard
for spring haulout.
For whatever reason we normally seemed to go through there when the current
was against us and as we'd pass the buoy at the turn for "Broadway" (can't
remember the number) we could stand and have a good look at that buoy
getting knocked down by the current...... yup, still passing the
buoy........G old Prudence was steaming wide open throttle and maybe
making 1/2k over ground.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

DSK wrote:
Lee Huddleston wrote:

I also meant to share with you another thing I have done to help in a
situation like you found yourself. I installed a Y valve in the
raw-water intake for the engine.


That's a really good idea, especially if you can mount the Y-valve where
it is easily accessible. The "inside" suction should be mounted to a
large & strong strainer.

At least my little diesel (Volvo 2001) pumps so little water - less than
10 litres per minute - that it wouldn't help. A frightened man with a
bucket is much more efficent.

Markus

On serious bilge pumping........
 

you may want to consider a gasoline powered water pump, like the ones
the coasties dump to a boat in distress, harbor frieght carries Pacer ,
a name brand multi purpose, self priming pump. moves alot of water real
fast.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

It still amazes me that there is no better system than red and green
bouys that change and mean just the opposite halfway thru a difficult
channel. I have seen this in a number of places such as Woods Hole or
the Coast of Maine or Boston and nearby harbors. I use charts more
often than not and almost always in unfamilar waters, but I hope that I
will live to see the day when one can look at the navigational aids and
know right away what they mean.
Actually, I do kind of like to figure them out as we are going along.
Adds excitment to the day. and I do own a power boat so I tend to have
less time to figure it out than a sail boat, but I don't draw as much
and I can hit reverse pretty hard if I needed to.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

"richard" wrote in message
oups.com...
It still amazes me that there is no better system than red and
green
bouys that change and mean just the opposite halfway thru a
difficult
channel. I have seen this in a number of places such as Woods
Hole or
the Coast of Maine or Boston and nearby harbors. I use charts
more
often than not and almost always in unfamilar waters, but I hope
that I
will live to see the day when one can look at the navigational
aids and
know right away what they mean.

Where there's chance of ambiguity, Europe uses cardinal bouys as
well as the red and green. Is this not common practice in the USA?

JimB

On serious bilge pumping........
 

What do you mean, "change and mean just the opposite"? The buoys in
the Woods Hole are absolutely consistent and perfectly easy to
understand just by looking at the chart before hand.

Have you ever looked at a chart?

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepag...latlontype=DMS

--

Roger Long



"richard" wrote in message
oups.com...
It still amazes me that there is no better system than red and green
bouys that change and mean just the opposite halfway thru a
difficult
channel. I have seen this in a number of places such as Woods Hole
or
the Coast of Maine or Boston and nearby harbors. I use charts more
often than not and almost always in unfamilar waters, but I hope
that I
will live to see the day when one can look at the navigational aids
and
know right away what they mean.
Actually, I do kind of like to figure them out as we are going
along.
Adds excitment to the day. and I do own a power boat so I tend to
have
less time to figure it out than a sail boat, but I don't draw as
much
and I can hit reverse pretty hard if I needed to.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

The colors don't reverse at Wood's Hole, or any of the nearby Holes.
The do reverse in the Cape Cod Canal, but there are no buoys in the
canal itself so it isn't very confusing.

I'm sure there a few reverses left in Maine, but I think most were
"fixed" back around 1993, to the annoyance of those of use who were
there that summer!

richard wrote:
It still amazes me that there is no better system than red and green
bouys that change and mean just the opposite halfway thru a difficult
channel. I have seen this in a number of places such as Woods Hole or
the Coast of Maine or Boston and nearby harbors. I use charts more
often than not and almost always in unfamilar waters, but I hope that I
will live to see the day when one can look at the navigational aids and
know right away what they mean.
Actually, I do kind of like to figure them out as we are going along.
Adds excitment to the day. and I do own a power boat so I tend to have
less time to figure it out than a sail boat, but I don't draw as much
and I can hit reverse pretty hard if I needed to.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:19:53 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Have you ever looked at a chart?

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepag...latlontype=DMS
===================================

I like this view better:

http://tinyurl.com/de2wo

I agree that the buoys are consistent (no reversal), but somehow the
chart does not adequately prepare you for what you are about to
encounter. I've been through the "hole" many times in different boats
and I still find it to be one of the most intimidating places I've
ever negotiated. Things happen really quickly and there's barely
enough time to sort out the conflicting visual images that present
themselves, sort out the cross currents pulling you sideways, avoid
the locals fishing in mid passage, and select the correct channel.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

The possible confusion for those using the WH passage, is that for those
entering the passage from the Buzzards Bay side
might be expecting to see the normal "Red Right Returning", but obviously,
the opposite applies.
My best suggestion for solving this is to look at a small scale chart of the
area to get an overall view of the general direction of the buoys,
since the "N-S" "E-W" for the East Coast, coming from sea can lead to
confusion.
Since the main entrance to WH is from the Nantucket/Vineyard sound, all the
buoys associated with that and/or any side channels, reflect that
direction.........G clear as mud.

otn

"richard" wrote in message
oups.com...
It still amazes me that there is no better system than red and green
bouys that change and mean just the opposite halfway thru a difficult
channel. I have seen this in a number of places such as Woods Hole or
the Coast of Maine or Boston and nearby harbors. I use charts more
often than not and almost always in unfamilar waters, but I hope that I
will live to see the day when one can look at the navigational aids and
know right away what they mean.
Actually, I do kind of like to figure them out as we are going along.
Adds excitment to the day. and I do own a power boat so I tend to have
less time to figure it out than a sail boat, but I don't draw as much
and I can hit reverse pretty hard if I needed to.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.

--

Roger Long

On serious bilge pumping........
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.


I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North to
South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along the
coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out of
date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to pass.
With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and understand what the
buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG" picture of an area to check
the overall direction the system is taking.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

A basic principle of buoy philosophy that is often overlooked is that
they mark what is safe; not what is dangerous. There may be a buoy by
an isolated shoal but it is there to show you where the deep water is
on the preferred side. A patch of water isn't safe just because there
is no buoy. That's why you need charts.

NO navigational aid or device is intended to be used alone.

The essence of my point is that the buoy arrangement in a place like
Woods Hole is not deficient just because some navigators will need a
chart to understand it readily or to orient themselves when they get
there.

With a smidgen of understanding, Woods Hole is a piece of cake, even
with the current behind you. You just go straight through into the
harbor and then head out into the sound. I've done it many times even
in a kayak and mostly just gone with the flow.

It's when people without sufficient understanding of current, rudders,
boats, and water, try to turn into the other channel because it's the
shorter and seems the obvious thing to do that the Coast Guard gets
called out.

--

Roger Long



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...
"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.


I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North
to
South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along
the
coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out of
date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to
pass.
With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and understand
what the
buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG" picture of an area to
check
the overall direction the system is taking.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

I'll intersperse some comments......

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
A basic principle of buoy philosophy that is often overlooked is that they
mark what is safe; not what is dangerous.

G Point of view..... I'd say they do both to varying degrees.

There may be a buoy by
an isolated shoal but it is there to show you where the deep water is on
the preferred side. A patch of water isn't safe just because there is no
buoy. That's why you need charts.

No argument.


NO navigational aid or device is intended to be used alone.

No argument.


The essence of my point is that the buoy arrangement in a place like Woods
Hole is not deficient just because some navigators will need a chart to
understand it readily or to orient themselves when they get there.

Would agree ..... however EG having discussed this channel with a number
of people who are approaching from
Buzzards Bay, I can understand their initial confusion and reason for it.


With a smidgen of understanding, Woods Hole is a piece of cake, even with
the current behind you. You just go straight through into the harbor and
then head out into the sound. I've done it many times even in a kayak and
mostly just gone with the flow.

G I always preferred "Broadway".


It's when people without sufficient understanding of current, rudders,
boats, and water, try to turn into the other channel because it's the
shorter and seems the obvious thing to do that the Coast Guard gets called
out.

Reminds me of another incident ..... was coming through from Buzzards Bay
and made my turn down "Broadway" followed by a larger sloop than mine. After
settling myself out on course, looked back at other sloop only to see him
doing circles at the corner. He finally followed the main route after coming
too close to one buoy.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

You are right Roger, I was thinking of another place and yes, I have
looked at a chart. Do it all the time. Actually love charting. When I
bought my first GPS I would not let myself use it until I took a course
related to reading charts. (Paper charts, that is). I think that maybe
you missed my point. I am sure that you have been cruising at some
point in your life, where you were leaving one harbor and entering
another and the "red on right" changed to "green on right" becuase you
were changing from "leaving" to "returning". If that make sense. and I
am sure that some times a bouy or nav aid does not make sense to you
right away. My point is that it is not a perfect system and will keep
improving. I am sure that you have been to places where one time the
markers were one way, and then they changed them and maybe years later
they changed them again
anyway safe cruising to us all.
my boat goes out of the water tomorrow for the season. we had to cut it
a little shorter this year. we usally go from April to Dec or Jan. Not
to bad for a pleasure boat from chilly Boston.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

otnmbrd wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:


No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.



I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North to
South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along the
coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out of
date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to pass.
With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and understand what the
buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG" picture of an area to check
the overall direction the system is taking.

otn
That wouldn't work around Vancouver Island. I think your N-S, E-W
premise is wrong. The buoyage system is meant to relate to the
direction of flooding tides and around here it is very difficult,
without a chart and/or tide table, to know which direction the flood goes.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Gary wrote in news:1vNjf.6503$Eq5.2807@pd7tw1no:

otnmbrd wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:


No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.



I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North
to South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along
the coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out
of date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to
pass. With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and
understand what the buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG"
picture of an area to check the overall direction the system is
taking.

otn
That wouldn't work around Vancouver Island. I think your N-S, E-W
premise is wrong. The buoyage system is meant to relate to the
direction of flooding tides and around here it is very difficult,
without a chart and/or tide table, to know which direction the flood
goes.


The N-S is East Coast ..... West Coast is S-N (W-E, old school) and
again this is a general along the coast, coming from sea.
Once you get into (In your case, the Straits and Pujet sound) an
"inland" area, you will need to understand the flow of your area.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting running without charts .... if
anything, I prefer having a small and large scale of an area I'm
transiting ( the small may help you determine tide flow .... barring
stopping and watching, if you don't have tables or some other means of
determining).
My point was, that knowing some buoy basics, can help you figure out a
system as well keep you in clear water when running an area you may not
be readily familiar with.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in news:1vNjf.6503$Eq5.2807@pd7tw1no:


otnmbrd wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
:



No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.



I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North
to South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along
the coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out
of date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to
pass. With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and
understand what the buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG"
picture of an area to check the overall direction the system is
taking.

otn

That wouldn't work around Vancouver Island. I think your N-S, E-W
premise is wrong. The buoyage system is meant to relate to the
direction of flooding tides and around here it is very difficult,
without a chart and/or tide table, to know which direction the flood
goes.



The N-S is East Coast ..... West Coast is S-N (W-E, old school) and
again this is a general along the coast, coming from sea.
Once you get into (In your case, the Straits and Pujet sound) an
"inland" area, you will need to understand the flow of your area.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting running without charts .... if
anything, I prefer having a small and large scale of an area I'm
transiting ( the small may help you determine tide flow .... barring
stopping and watching, if you don't have tables or some other means of
determining).
My point was, that knowing some buoy basics, can help you figure out a
system as well keep you in clear water when running an area you may not
be readily familiar with.

otn
The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over
66 feet, it's the law.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

"Gary" wrote in message news:

The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over 66
feet, it's the law.

Find the latest Bowditch and read Article 519 .......

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you
would rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A
committee could spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about
which side red should be on depending on whether they are thinking
from the mindset of big ships that use only the major channels, yachts
that use pleasure boat anchorages, etc.

By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid
out the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some
situations?

Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the
buoys are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart.
Even if you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just
keeping the right color on the proper side will WHAM!

--

Roger Long

On serious bilge pumping........
 

otnmbrd wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message news:


The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over 66
feet, it's the law.


Find the latest Bowditch and read Article 519 .......

otn




Bowditch is an instructional document. Read the IALA Buotage document.
There are many ways to learn buoys and remember them but there is
only one right way to place them.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Roger Long wrote:
Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you
would rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A
committee could spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about
which side red should be on depending on whether they are thinking
from the mindset of big ships that use only the major channels, yachts
that use pleasure boat anchorages, etc.

By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid
out the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some
situations?

Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the
buoys are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart.
Even if you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just
keeping the right color on the proper side will WHAM!

Well said.

On serious bilge pumping........
 

"Gary" wrote in message news:

Bowditch is an instructional document. Read the IALA Buotage document.
There are many ways to learn buoys and remember them but there is only one
right way to place them.

I really don't know what point you are trying to argue.
The basic presumption of "from seaward", starts with the directional flow
of N-S (East Coast),
E-W (Gulf Coast), S-N (West coast). (US)
As you progress inshore from there, the system develops using the general
direction of flow from seaward and/or the
flood current.
The reason I didn't fully agree with the "you need a chart" was that when
approaching the coast from seaward you could and needed to, use this info to
determine what a buoy was for.
Once you moved inland, there would/could be a number of situations which can
lead to confusion (Woods Hole Passage, being one) because charts or no
charts, if you just looked at the buoys without following the bigger picture
of (N,S,E,W) , traffic flow, flood current, then you could easily misread
the intent of the buoys.
Having and using up to date charts is a must, but to make the most use of
them you need to also understand and know a number "basic" why's.
G If you think Bowditch is just some "instructional" document, you haven't
read/used Bowditch.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in

Having and using up to date charts is a must,

Well, we certainly agree. Sorry if I missed that point in your
earlier posts. I thought you were arguing that a person who
thoroughly understood the buoy system could get by without reference
to the charts. Plenty of them have left paint in Woods Hole passage.

I also agree that understanding the system behind the charts and buoys
is important.

--

Roger Long

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Comments interspersed:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you would
rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A committee could
spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about which side red
should be on depending on whether they are thinking from the mindset of
big ships that use only the major channels, yachts that use pleasure boat
anchorages, etc.

What I am commenting on are not "general rules you rely on", but instead are
"general rules you begin with".


By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid out
the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some situations?

I don't look at just one buoy without looking at it's meaning within the
particular area/system I am transiting.
If approaching an unfamiliar area, I will have looked at the "big picture"
to see why a particular buoy is where it is and how it relates to the
area/system it's concerned with (which may easily involve an apparent
departure from the initial basics).


Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the buoys
are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart. Even if
you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just keeping the
right color on the proper side will WHAM!

Yes a buoy will locate your position, yes it will tell you where a danger
lies, yes it will tell you where the good water is....... as long as it's on
station (oops, guess that's not where I am). If you concentrate on a single
buoy without knowing how it relates to a particular system/area, then you
will frequently have reason for confusion.
There are many areas where the beginning basics may not and don't help you
out (they're a starting point). When they don't look at the approaches to
your area and/or what comes after in the scheme of the system you are
working (something you definitely need a chart for).
The N-S along the East Coast is for someone coming in from the Atlantic (and
Intracoastal) and not necessarily for someone in Penobscot Bay.
So we're sure it's understood ..... I am in no way suggesting you can or
should run without charts. My point being that there ARE some areas where
the basic "from seaward" rules do apply and need to be used and as you move
inland, you need to keep these basic rules in mind and be aware that you may
have trouble relating them to what you are now seeing. Do not focus on one
buoy, instead focus on the system and use all your info to help solve any
confusion.

otn

On serious bilge pumping........
 

Roger Long wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in


Having and using up to date charts is a must,


Well, we certainly agree. Sorry if I missed that point in your
earlier posts. I thought you were arguing that a person who
thoroughly understood the buoy system could get by without reference
to the charts. Plenty of them have left paint in Woods Hole passage.

I also agree that understanding the system behind the charts and buoys
is important.

We agree.