Sometime ago I made a usenet posting regarding building a Dodger from
ABS and not PVC.

Granted that such a system my not be for serious long blue water
cruising.

http://hamiii.sytes.net/Sailing/Boat...ts/bimini.html

The above is a bimini and not a dodger.

"By having it riding on the life lines I can move it back and forth as
need be."

This sailor has choosen to mount it on the lifelines, which is kind of
interesting. I havent given this much thought but :
"It hasn't been subjected to higher than about 30kn winds and even
then only for a few hours. No promises on how rugged it is but with
the price of PVC you'd have to fix it an awful lot of times (100s) to
pay the same as you would for a metal frame. Not to mention the whole
thing disassembles and fits in a bag which is only 6 inches in
diameter and about 4 feet long. It easily fits under the rail in the
quarter berth."

I guess the point is the cost vs utility?

From my research of many sailing logs of bluewater cruisers many opt
or subsequently suggest a hard dodger. I cant say I have ever seen a
soft dodger in its folded position other than in prep. for a hurricane
and even then some choose to remove it totally like the sail on the
furling.

The only issue I see with a hard dodger is the possible effect of the
righting momentium. Any thoughts on this? And what, in your opinion
are some of the other downsides of a hard dodger other than possibly
the change in look and lines of the vessel?

Fair Winds Mic

Mic wrote:

The only issue I see with a hard dodger is the possible effect of the
righting momentium. Any thoughts on this? And what, in your opinion
are some of the other downsides of a hard dodger other than possibly
the change in look and lines of the vessel?

Negligible compared to the reduction due to radar up the
mast or roller furling.

I had a hard top dodger on the last boat. Good protection
from wind/waves, easy to remove the windows in the summer
for good breezes in sheltered waters. Very nice.

I like hard dodgers on boats. Our current boat is a cat and
be steered with the autopilot remote in the saloon - stay
warm and dry, only need to go outside to tend sails.

Evan Gatehouse

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:57:45 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

Sometime ago I made a usenet posting regarding building a Dodger from
ABS and not PVC.

Granted that such a system my not be for serious long blue water
cruising.

Maybe, maybe not. Does ABS shatter into sharp flying pieces when
stressed? Steel tubing doesn't...

I like the idea and the design, and I see no issue for at-dock or fair
weather sailing usage.

There might be a question of how good lifeline mounts would be, as
wind movement of the bimini might conceivably lead to unusual chafe in
the lifelines.

But when you *want* the bimini for foul weather outside work, or just
to avoid sealing up the boat in fair weather/windy conditions (green
water splashing back to the cockpit, spray, etc.) is it sturdy enough?

I don't know enough about the strength of tubular ABS to comment. I
will point out though that here in Toronto, a number of boats have
moved from aluminum tube and clamp frame and/or wooden frames for boat
covers to ABS pipe frames in what looks a 2" O.D. size. They then use
a standard canvas, weighted "blue" tarp or the shrink-wrap to cover
the boat.

Given the 40-50 knot winter gales and the occasionally heavy snows we
can get (and we've seen several instances even in November), I suspect
if it was a flawed concept, the ABS would have failed. I haven't
noticed that, but the pipe diameters are a lot larger when used as
tarp framing.

R.

Mic is a wannabe cruiser standing watch from his rocking chair and
sailing the internet.

Perhaps it is not for nothing that the vast majority of biminis and
dodgers are made from stainless steel tubing and sunbrella fabric. Is
it possible that suitability and durability might have something to do
with it?

wrote:
Mic is a wannabe cruiser standing watch from his rocking chair and
sailing the internet.

Perhaps it is not for nothing that the vast majority of biminis and
dodgers are made from stainless steel tubing and sunbrella fabric. Is
it possible that suitability and durability might have something to do
with it?


Availability, profitability and market mania? -Perceptions; "It's
the best that we offer!"

I used fiberglass chimney rods and sunbrella for my dodger, all home
brew, sturdy, soft, flexible under strain, stowable, cheap, zipper
windows, etc, lashed to the stanctions, complete with gazebo bug
curtain at the open end. It woulda been stapled instead of stitched,
if stainless staples were easy to find.

Of course, there are no craftspersons willing to do this, the margin
on parts would be too small.

Terry K

In article .com,
wrote:

Mic is a wannabe cruiser standing watch from his rocking chair and
sailing the internet.

Quick comment. When I see ad hominem attacks like this, I ignore the
rest of the post as irrelevant.

Debate the ISSUE, don't attack the person. Mic's stock rose several
points when I read yours.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:20:30 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

Debate the ISSUE, don't attack the person. Mic's stock rose several
points when I read yours.

=================================

Jere, I know that you are a serious cruiser after reading your posts
here for many years, and would be happy to debate any issue with you.
I suspect we'd be in agreement on most however, because experience
does count for something.

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:20:30 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

Debate the ISSUE, don't attack the person. Mic's stock rose several
points when I read yours.

=================================

Jere, I know that you are a serious cruiser after reading your posts
here for many years, and would be happy to debate any issue with you.
I suspect we'd be in agreement on most however, because experience
does count for something.

Sorry for snapping like that, but I have a "thing" about ad hominem and
yours struck me in particular for some reason. This list has a pretty
good signal/noise ratio for Usenet and I'd like to keep it that way (or
improve), as it's where I get some of my best info.

We're not as experienced as some, since we're primarily weekend sailors,
but we are out and about about a third of each season (60 days out of
about 180). Only did 460 nm last year, though. We did twice that on our
one 3-week trip down (and reluctantly back up) the ICW.

Still have yet to get into open ocean (except in the BVI), do an
overnight and all sorts of passage-making skills.

In the meantime, I listen real hard, ask questions when I don't
understand, and share what I've learned.

Saddest day of the year was yesterday, giving notice that Xan could be
hauled.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:25:17 -0500, rhys wrote:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:57:45 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

Sometime ago I made a usenet posting regarding building a Dodger from
ABS and not PVC.

Granted that such a system my not be for serious long blue water
cruising.

Maybe, maybe not. Does ABS shatter into sharp flying pieces when
stressed? Steel tubing doesn't...

My guess is that if ABS tubing should it break it is likely the ends
would be spear like. If you were to have say a 14 gauge wire run
through the tubing filled with foam or epoxy it would probably
mitigate both breakage and spear tips if it does break.

I did read an article about an ABS wisker pole and the the issues that
could exist in that instances which is a totally different set of
factors and circumstance. If ABS where to be used in this instance
filling the tub with foam and wire would be a minimum if advisable to
use ABS in this instance at all.


I like the idea and the design, and I see no issue for at-dock or fair
weather sailing usage.

I like the idea although I think the design could be improved. I
think that the builders intention is for it to be used during actual
sailing as at the dock a boom tent would work well.


There might be a question of how good lifeline mounts would be, as
wind movement of the bimini might conceivably lead to unusual chafe in
the lifelines.

Yep...


But when you *want* the bimini for foul weather outside work, or just
to avoid sealing up the boat in fair weather/windy conditions (green
water splashing back to the cockpit, spray, etc.) is it sturdy enough?

The weak spots would be the fittings and by the size of the pvc I
would think it is fairly flexible.

I don't know enough about the strength of tubular ABS to comment. I
will point out though that here in Toronto, a number of boats have
moved from aluminum tube and clamp frame and/or wooden frames for boat
covers to ABS pipe frames in what looks a 2" O.D. size. They then use
a standard canvas, weighted "blue" tarp or the shrink-wrap to cover
the boat.

Given the 40-50 knot winter gales and the occasionally heavy snows we
can get (and we've seen several instances even in November), I suspect
if it was a flawed concept, the ABS would have failed. I haven't
noticed that, but the pipe diameters are a lot larger when used as
tarp framing.

Good point.
It seems like there are some possiblities. The other point the
builder made regarding this material is the cost factor. It is
probably likely that if they were unable to build this cost effective
alternative that they would not have a bimini at all.

R.

Mic

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:25:17 -0500, rhys wrote:


I don't know enough about the strength of tubular ABS to comment. I
will point out though that here in Toronto, a number of boats have
moved from aluminum tube and clamp frame and/or wooden frames for boat
covers to ABS pipe frames in what looks a 2" O.D. size. They then use
a standard canvas, weighted "blue" tarp or the shrink-wrap to cover
the boat.

Given the 40-50 knot winter gales and the occasionally heavy snows we
can get (and we've seen several instances even in November), I suspect
if it was a flawed concept, the ABS would have failed. I haven't
noticed that, but the pipe diameters are a lot larger when used as
tarp framing.

http://www.frappr.com/liveaboard/photo/650075

LiveAboard Photos
Posted by: Rick & Gabriele Date: 11.23.2005
Location: Toronto, Ontario (Canada)



R.