wrote in message
oups.com...
Look, you're posting this to a cruising n/g. Jet skis are noisy and
offensive buzzing insects and the people who drive around on them are
the seaborne equivalent of morons who ride trail bikes on public
reserves. Go away and play with your toy and don't expect any sympathy
from sailors.

You obviously haven't been actually reading the thread, or refuse to be
shaken from your outdated smug superior false stereotyping notions of
boaters on pwc's. The point has been made (by boaters and non-pwcers):
"jet skis" are actually NOT noisy anymore! Probably the quietest and
cleanest-running power boats being sold. And neither I, nor any of my

The vast majority are quite noisy.

pwc enthusiast friends, many of whom also own and operate larger boats
as well, fit your uninformed description...at all. I am a cruiser too,

Well, that's nice!

P, have in fact done more serious long-distance/multi-day cruising on
pwc's, longer, more ambitious and more of it, than most larger-boat
owners I know (as I described to some extent earlier in the thread I
think). Like you and other boaters and cruisers in bigger boats, I
have to learn how to navigate, how to dock, how to launch and retrieve
my boat, how to obey the rules of the road and respect the laws and all
other fellow boaters, how to avoid going aground, how to prepare for
and deal with emergencies and problem situations on the water, how to
use all nautical tools, how to maintain, repair and safely operate my
craft, take careful care of my passengers...and like you and all fellow
boaters, get angry at the behavior of the too-large percentage of
people who do idiotic dangerous irresponsible things on the water no
matter what the size and shape of their hulls, not only because of the
danger they pose but because of the bad face they put on the entire
boating community.

"too-large percentage of people who do idiotic ... things" are what we're
talking about.

Yes, okay, I'll gladly accept the term "toy" to describe my pwc in the
same sense that any power boat is in a way a toy (and in a way, not).
But no one's looking for any sympathy, just trying to educate and
inform some obviously ignorant, nasty and prejudiced fellow boaters on
what we're talking about. When you specifically insult me and my
friends in words like yours above, I'm not gonna let it slide or just
go away.

That's what makes America great.

It doesn't matter how many anecdotal experiences you've had observing
pwc'ers doing dumb things, you and I have both seen just as many idiots
in bigger boats doing just as many comically or frighteningly bad
stupid things, at the ramp, on the water, around sailboats and surfers,
in the channel, at the marina, in the no-wake zone, near the shore.

Well, I haven't see just as many idiots on sailboats annoy the entire
harbor, nearly run over swimmer, disturb the natural habitat, pollute the
water, etc., as jetskiers. I guess I don't get out enough. I do know many
places where they are specifically banned.

I do respect sailors enormously, I know you really have to know what
you're doing to sail. Probably far fewer idiots in that category
because it's a lot more difficult and takes more effort and dedication
to get into in the first place. By the same token, pwc's probably have
a slightly higher percentage of clueless newbies and kids on them than
larger boats, again because they're easier to afford and to get behind

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

the wheel of in the first place (much less so in NY and other states
now that you have to take a basic boating safety course in order to
legally operate one at all - all but extinguishing the rental market,
which is where most of the problems come from). But most people
exhibiting the kind of behavior you're thinking about on pwc's are
either newbies or kids who haven't learned and figured out the rules
and the impact of their behavior YET, but they will....if not, they're
just idiots, and again there's no shortage of them, no matter what the
level of age, experience, income, or what size and shape boat a person
has.

richforman

"jet skis" are actually NOT noisy anymore! Probably the quietest and
cleanest-running power boats being sold. And neither I, nor any of my

The vast majority are quite noisy.

Nope, certainly not the vast majority of the ones being manufactured
and sold now. They are dead quiet. My four-stroke, the loudest sound
is the waves against the hull,and my wife and I can have a normal
conversation without raising our voices while running at speed...and
all the pwc manufacturers are marketing their new four-stroke models
almost exclusively

I am a cruiser too,

Well, that's nice!

My point was that I have every right, not only that, but that it's
perfectly appropriate for me to be reading and posting here; your
previous post had tried to kick us pwc'ers out on the basis of the
newsgroup being for "cruisers."

Like you and other boaters and cruisers in bigger boats, I
boaters, get angry at the behavior of the too-large percentage of
people who do idiotic dangerous irresponsible things on the water

"too-large percentage of people who do idiotic ... things" are what we're
talking about.

Yes but the crucial point I was making and you seem to have missed
right there, is that there is that the problem is not, and not nearly,
exclusive to pwc's, but exists across
all segments of the recreational boating world. So your prejudiced,
mean-spirited, ill-informed, stereotyping comments about pwc'ers ("the
people who drive around on them are
the seaborne equivalent of morons") are unfair and inaccurate
(although, nice word there,"seaborne," impressive!). (And once again,
I am so glad to note that I never get this feeling from actual fellow
boaters on the water, mainly just from usenet assholes, but I'm still
not going to let it stand.)

It doesn't matter how many anecdotal experiences you've had observing
pwc'ers doing dumb things, you and I have both seen just as many idiots
in bigger boats doing just as many comically or frighteningly bad
stupid things, at the ramp, on the water, around sailboats and surfers,
in the channel, at the marina, in the no-wake zone, near the shore.

Well, I haven't see just as many idiots on sailboats annoy the entire
harbor, nearly run over swimmer, disturb the natural habitat, pollute the
water, etc., as jetskiers.

....or as other power boaters besides "jetskiers," right? I already
have said that I think sailboaters are probably on average, more
skilled and better educated than power boaters simply because it takes
more effort, skill and experience to operate one in the first place.
But a special distinction just for pwc'ers is where you go wrong. We
are just power boaters, really the same as any other except that our
boats are smaller (and, maybe, more fun!).

Anyway, again, as with the "noise" issue, the fact is that
modern-generation pwc'ers (let's say for the last five years easily)
are among the cleanest-running and least-polluting powerboats on the
water. The technology has just skyrocketed, and the fuel efficiency is
amazing (I go about 125 miles on an 18.5 gallon tank of regular and
burn no oil; lots of bigger boats can't make any better "pollution"
claims than those, but several other pwc models do even better than
mine). Again your statements are just based on stereotypes and
outdated information and if you refuse to update your knowledge of the
situation, I'm gonna point out the falsehood of your statements about
it every chance I get.

I guess I don't get out enough. I do know many
places where they are specifically banned.

Some people don't seem to like 'em, it's true. BUT if you've been
paying any attention to developments over the last few years, you'd
know that the majority of pwc bans in national parks have been ROLLED
BACK and reversed over the last five years as the results of mandated
environmental impact studies have come in and shown that pwc's make no
more, and in many cases, less, noise, pollution and impact on wildlife
than that of other power boats.

By the same token, pwc's probably have
a slightly higher percentage of clueless newbies and kids on them than
larger boats, again because they're easier to afford and to get behind

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

Not at all....I graciously conceded a point....I don't ignore reality
in my arguments. But my admitting to a potentially "slightly higher
percentage" of inexperienced operators on pwc's as compared to other
categories of boat, due to the factors I cited, doesn't validate or
vindicate your apparent broad sweeping indictments/dismissals of all
pwc users or the majority of them as being "morons" etc.

richforman

In article . com,
wrote:
"jet skis" are actually NOT noisy anymore! Probably the quietest and
cleanest-running power boats being sold. And neither I, nor any of my

The vast majority are quite noisy.

Nope, certainly not the vast majority of the ones being manufactured
and sold now. They are dead quiet. My four-stroke, the loudest sound

Get real man.... most jetskis on the water right now are obnoxiously
loud. It's nice to know the new ones don't make so much noise and
don't pollute. I guess the 4-stroke is a new fangled engine.

I am a cruiser too,

Well, that's nice!

My point was that I have every right, not only that, but that it's
perfectly appropriate for me to be reading and posting here; your
previous post had tried to kick us pwc'ers out on the basis of the
newsgroup being for "cruisers."

I'm not trying to kick you out of anywhere on usenet. Why would I want
to do that? You're welcome to post your stuff for all to see. You're
certainly not, as a group, cruisers, but that's got nothing to do with
posting here.

Yes but the crucial point I was making and you seem to have missed
right there, is that there is that the problem is not, and not nearly,
all segments of the recreational boating world. So your prejudiced,
mean-spirited, ill-informed, stereotyping comments about pwc'ers ("the

I think they're highly accurate, since there's a much higher
percentage of noising, polluting jetskiers than there are sailboat
cruisers. Sounds to me like you're a bit sensitive when it comes to
jetski comments.

(although, nice word there,"seaborne," impressive!). (And once again,
I am so glad to note that I never get this feeling from actual fellow
boaters on the water, mainly just from usenet assholes, but I'm still
not going to let it stand.)

Ah, personal name calling. Come on, I'm sure you can think of
something worse to call me than an asshole. Like I said, among
sailboaters, PWC are generally known for being loud, obnoxious, and
pollution machines. I am going to let that stand.

Well, I haven't see just as many idiots on sailboats annoy the entire
harbor, nearly run over swimmer, disturb the natural habitat, pollute the
water, etc., as jetskiers.

...or as other power boaters besides "jetskiers," right? I already
have said that I think sailboaters are probably on average, more
skilled and better educated than power boaters simply because it takes
more effort, skill and experience to operate one in the first place.
But a special distinction just for pwc'ers is where you go wrong. We
are just power boaters, really the same as any other except that our
boats are smaller (and, maybe, more fun!).

And, I agree with you. I've been in many anchorages with both kinds of
craft.. power and sail. I prefer sailboats, but I've never had much of
a noise issue with powerboats in those areas. Once in a while, I've
gone over and asked them to turn off their engines after they've been
idling for a long time, and they've always been nice about
it... either did so or moved off.

Anyway, again, as with the "noise" issue, the fact is that
modern-generation pwc'ers (let's say for the last five years easily)
are among the cleanest-running and least-polluting powerboats on the
water. The technology has just skyrocketed, and the fuel efficiency is

What's that got to do with the ones currently on the water?? Nothing.


mine). Again your statements are just based on stereotypes and
outdated information and if you refuse to update your knowledge of the
situation, I'm gonna point out the falsehood of your statements about
it every chance I get.

Yeah sure... I guess that means anything over 1 week old is
outdated. Seems typical of the PWC mentality.

Some people don't seem to like 'em, it's true. BUT if you've been
paying any attention to developments over the last few years, you'd
know that the majority of pwc bans in national parks have been ROLLED
BACK and reversed over the last five years as the results of mandated
environmental impact studies have come in and shown that pwc's make no
more, and in many cases, less, noise, pollution and impact on wildlife
than that of other power boats.

Why would I want to do that? I have no plans to own one. Start talking
about the vast numbers that are not so new and pollute like hell.

Didn't you just contradict yourself here?

Not at all....I graciously conceded a point....I don't ignore reality
in my arguments. But my admitting to a potentially "slightly higher
percentage" of inexperienced operators on pwc's as compared to other
categories of boat, due to the factors I cited, doesn't validate or
vindicate your apparent broad sweeping indictments/dismissals of all
pwc users or the majority of them as being "morons" etc.

Ah, well, we're all very appreciative of your concessions.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com