Hello. I was hoping that I could get some advice on repairing
fiberglass on a damaged keel. I was out on Lake Erie and lost my engine
and ended up slamming into the breakwall a few times before getting a
tow. It put a 1"x3" hole in the side of my keel. I've read up on
fiberglass repair, including the book "The Fiberglass Boat Repair
Manual."

My question is this... The flat bottom of the keel was not very
accessible, so I just wrapped the fiberglass around and under the keel.
Is this going to cause me any long term problems? Ideally, I would've
ground out around the bottom like I did the top, but I just couldn't
get access without lifting the boat off the trailer.

----------------------------------|
\ (keel) /
\ /
\--------|xxxxx|-----/

(damaged area is the xxxx's)

The boat is old and cosmetics aren't important. I just want a sound,
safe repair. I've applied about 5-6 layers of 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
w/Mas Resin & Fast Hardner. I'd rather not grind it all down and start
over if it's good enough as is.

Pictures of the repair can be found @
http://csilo.com/randomphotos.aspx?f...og/boatrepair/

Thanks for your advice,
Joe

I have look at the pictures. They do not tell me much.
What type of keel do you have: lead, cast iron, fiberglass encapsulated.
Lead and cast iron keel are not much of a problem when it come to a 1"x3"
hole.
They are two type of fiberglass encapsulated, one type is made out of a
spitted mold and the inside filled with solid lead or some any other solid
material is used for weight.
The other type of encapsulated keel uses lead pellets for weight of any
other loose material.
When you punched in a hole in a encapsulated keel you have to drill small
diameter holes around the puncture area to dry the fiberglass. It take
about one Saison to get the water out completely.
Otherwise, the water will wick into the fiberglass hull and cause structural
damage at a later time. Without knowing what type of keel and boat you have
I can only speculate.

"joeb" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello. I was hoping that I could get some advice on repairing
fiberglass on a damaged keel. I was out on Lake Erie and lost my engine
and ended up slamming into the breakwall a few times before getting a
tow. It put a 1"x3" hole in the side of my keel. I've read up on
fiberglass repair, including the book "The Fiberglass Boat Repair
Manual."

My question is this... The flat bottom of the keel was not very
accessible, so I just wrapped the fiberglass around and under the keel.
Is this going to cause me any long term problems? Ideally, I would've
ground out around the bottom like I did the top, but I just couldn't
get access without lifting the boat off the trailer.

----------------------------------|
\ (keel) /
\ /
\--------|xxxxx|-----/

(damaged area is the xxxx's)

The boat is old and cosmetics aren't important. I just want a sound,
safe repair. I've applied about 5-6 layers of 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
w/Mas Resin & Fast Hardner. I'd rather not grind it all down and start
over if it's good enough as is.

Pictures of the repair can be found @
http://csilo.com/randomphotos.aspx?f...og/boatrepair/

Thanks for your advice,
Joe

I'm not entirely sure what it is...I think it's fiberglass
encapsulated. There's some solid material in the center, but I'm not
sure what it is. It doesn't seem like metal. If it helps, the boat is a
1972 O'Day 22".

When the hole was exposed, I could reach in and move the center
material back and forth a couple inches. I also let it dry out for a
couple weeks. Thanks for your reply.

joeb wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what it is...I think it's fiberglass
encapsulated. There's some solid material in the center, but I'm not
sure what it is. It doesn't seem like metal. If it helps, the boat is a
1972 O'Day 22".

When the hole was exposed, I could reach in and move the center
material back and forth a couple inches. I also let it dry out for a
couple weeks. Thanks for your reply.

AARGH, I just typed a long reply to your other identical post in
rec.boats.building WITHOUT the additional info you just posted. This
was because you MULTIPOSTED. THIS IS WORSE THAN CROSS POSTING. I see
you are using google groups, but even that kludgy interface can handle
cross posting. If you had put [ rec.boats.building, rec.boats.cruising
] (without the [] of course) in the box just above '(Separate multiple
groups with commas)' you would have xposted (cross posted) it ok. (I
just did a test to confirm this) If Xposting, make sure your message is
appropriate and on topic for each group, (rule of thumb, NOTHING is ever
appropriate for more that 3 groups) or you will get a serious roasting
from regulars on those groups. Thats enough nettiquette for one day :-)


You shouldn't have a void in the bottom of your keel with loose stuff
inside. An empty or foamed void is possible if the designer got the
trim wrong and they had to move ballast forward or aft between the
prototytpe and the main production run. Did you grind back the edges of
the hole on the side of the keel far enough to make sure there is no
delamination? A better description of the loose stuff in the centre
would help, Is it smoothish and regularily shaped or jagged chunks?
I cant help feeling you may have lost a quantity of loose ballast out of
the hole. At this point you may well need to talk to a pro who knows
O'Days.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

The area to clarify is to establish that no ballast material got out or
displaced.
The geometric center of the boat could have changed. I am insisting on this
point because I have seen boats capsizing or heeling excessively. After
long investigations we learned that these boats had lost some of their keel
ballast. If done properly an encapsulated keel is acceptable as long as the
weight material is solidified into one piece with no room for movement. The
best way is to pour melted lead into the fiberglass capsule. High pressure
cement mixed with latex is worth investigating (similar to the crack filling
cement used in repairing water dams).

"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...
joeb wrote:

I'm not entirely sure what it is...I think it's fiberglass
encapsulated. There's some solid material in the center, but I'm not
sure what it is. It doesn't seem like metal. If it helps, the boat is a
1972 O'Day 22".

When the hole was exposed, I could reach in and move the center
material back and forth a couple inches. I also let it dry out for a
couple weeks. Thanks for your reply.

AARGH, I just typed a long reply to your other identical post in
rec.boats.building WITHOUT the additional info you just posted. This
was because you MULTIPOSTED. THIS IS WORSE THAN CROSS POSTING. I see
you are using google groups, but even that kludgy interface can handle
cross posting. If you had put [ rec.boats.building, rec.boats.cruising
] (without the [] of course) in the box just above '(Separate multiple
groups with commas)' you would have xposted (cross posted) it ok. (I
just did a test to confirm this) If Xposting, make sure your message is
appropriate and on topic for each group, (rule of thumb, NOTHING is ever
appropriate for more that 3 groups) or you will get a serious roasting
from regulars on those groups. Thats enough nettiquette for one day :-)


You shouldn't have a void in the bottom of your keel with loose stuff
inside. An empty or foamed void is possible if the designer got the
trim wrong and they had to move ballast forward or aft between the
prototytpe and the main production run. Did you grind back the edges of
the hole on the side of the keel far enough to make sure there is no
delamination? A better description of the loose stuff in the centre
would help, Is it smoothish and regularily shaped or jagged chunks?
I cant help feeling you may have lost a quantity of loose ballast out of
the hole. At this point you may well need to talk to a pro who knows
O'Days.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

I called the original designers of the O'Day. Although they no longer
have any of the original documentation, I spoke with a gentleman that
was working there when the boat was originally designed. He said that
it has a lead keel encapsulated in a fiberglass mold. He wasn't sure
what the the material was that I was moving around, but he said it's
likely that the lead didn't go all the way to the bottom. He suggested
that I could use some spray foam to shore things up. He also said that
I shouldn't need to worry about the boat's center or weight.

Now, I just need to make sure that the patch is good and solid.

I've seen boats where the keel does not go all the way to the bottom,
and even the encapsulation of a solid material allows for water to
collect on the bottom. About two years ago, a guy next to me in the
marina had a Hunter, he drilled a hole on the bottom of his keel to le
the water drain out. Only he drilled a hole too small. Ii'd warn
against drilling a small hole--if you drill a hole, drill one big
enough to let things drain out and some air to go through. A small
hole clogs up. Also, if you have a void you'll have to fill, you'll
have to work on the hole, and possibly drill more holes to fill it in.
So, let's assume that your center/weight is fine. It's possible a bit
of the lead broke off and fell down. If you can move it with your
finger then:
1) it's probably not enough weight to make a difference, and
2) your hole is probably big enough.

Here's my two cents on fixing:
1) find out how big the void is. Tap with a hammer, and drill. Don't
be afraid to drill--the repair will be as strong as the original
material, or at least close enough to it.
2) once you've identified the void area, you probably have drilled
enough holes to let it dry out. I'd say a hole every two inches is not
too many holes.
3) let it dry out. A moisture meter would help; yoru local surveyor or
fiberglass shop may let you borrow one; it's not worth buying (they'rd
about $350 starting). Alternatively, tape small pieces of plastic on
several places along the area. If when you get back, there is moisture
on the inside of the plastic then the thing's not dry yet. When
you're sure its dry (best leave it for the season!), proceed.
4) fill in the void. First, close off all the holes but the bottom
most one. Insert some tubing on the bottom hole. Remove the tape from
each of the other holes and blow through the tubing. The idea is to
make sure this is one continuous void you'll be filling--if air does
not flow out of one hole, then that is not part of the same void.
Other drill more holes, or identify the next void. Also, buy some
empty caulk tubes (I know West Systems sells some) When satisified,
thicken up some epoxy with microfibers or whatever your epoxy provider
sells for structural repairs. Thicken it enough that you can load up
your caulk tube. Remvoe the tape, and starting from the bottom hole,
fill in your void. As the epoxy reaches a higher hole, tape it over
(use "preservation tape" if possible) and continue filling until you
have filled the void to the topmost hole. Do not use the fast hardener
for the epoxy, unless you do this in the dead of winter. You will
likely leave this a day or so and come back to it, so use a medium
hardener. The slow is often too slow, but if it's 100 degrees out the
slow will do too. Do not worry about making the outside pretty at this
point. Remember the trick here is to fill the void from the bottom
up...fill it from teh top down and you'll get air pockets.
5) when all's set, tap it with a resin hammer to make sure you have no
voids left. If you do, repeat the process. (the new void would be
smaller.)
6) when you're satisfied, the rest is making it pretty. I'll assume
there is no gelcoat here. If there is, post back or email me. Sand
down the holes with the epoxy which will no doubt be pouring out at
this point. If you're satisfied with the smoothness when the epoxy is
flush with the rest of the keel, then proceed to step 8. If not, then
sand down below the level of the rest of the keel--feel free to sand
down a larger area--all this will do is provide a greater surface area
for the epoxy to stick to. This is _necessary_ if you use
poly/vinyl-ester resins rather than epoxy. Make sure you dewax
_before_ you sand.
7) thicken up some epoxy with their "fairing filler". Thicken it
pretty well so it will not run down the vertical surface. Then put it
on the holes you just sanded, making sure it sticks up above the level
of the keel. This stuff sands down easily, so don't hold back. In
theory, you should be able to get it pretty fair with just applying it,
but I've never been that lucky. Also, remember that epoxy shrinks just
a bit when it kicks, so make sure you load up above the level of the
keel. When thsi is kicked, sand it down until it's fair. "fair" is in
the eye of the beholder, but i fyou have a small area it should be
pretty easy.
8) this is icing on the cake. If you look at your faired area, you'll
see that there are small holes in the epoxy. This is the way it is.
You can fix this, and also provide a better water barrier by painting
on unthickened epoxy or, better yet, epoxy with water barrier additive.
(The latter has instructions on how much to use.) Wash down the old
epoxy to remove amine blush, sand down a little bit, and just paint on
with a disposable brush. It will drip, but you'll just sand that down
in the end to make it fair.
9) you're done. Put on your bottom paint.

As for the impact damage, the procedure is the same as above, except of
course that you do not fill in the void; instead you plaster on the
thickened epoxy. Make sure you sand/grind and grind again--grind
enough to make sure that you have gotten rid of any bad fiberglass.
The fiberglass should look smooth and homogeneous. If you see any
white spots, grind further. IF the end result is less than about 6
inches, and not more than 1/2 your thickness, then a
structurally-filled epoxy willwork. If not, you'll have to lay
glass--which you seem to have done already.

This is nicely outlined in Don Casey's book, "Sailboat Hull and Deck
repair" ISBN 0070133697
amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...20927?v=glance

I'd recommend getting this--you'll have the time to wait for shipping
while the keel dries. It has very good illustrations which will do
what my message failed to convey.

Third to last: this may sound daunting, but it's not. If you're
interested in doing your own work, can shoot a caulk gun, you should be
able to do this work. The boatyard will probably charge you too much.

second to last: Epoxies come in all varieties. West System is the
most common, and its' a good epoxy. Due to funky ratios, West Systems
is best used with measuring pumps. Some others are equally good, but do
not necessarily require measuring pumps. In my experience, if the
ratios are easy (e.g. 2:1), then a pump is less necessary, provided you
are mixing up a quantity that would fill up at least half your
measuring cup. This minimizes errors. If you are beginning with
epoxy, get the pumps. And for crying out lout, wear gloves and a mask.
You'll be spending enough on mixing cups and epoxies, and I bet you
sand down your bottom paint every now and then. The paper masks don't
do anything. get something similar to the 3m 6291:
http://www.natlallergy.com/allergy_r...ion-masks.html
the P95/P100 filters are good for sanding (including your bottom). For
applying epoxy in open environments you won't need a vapor cartridge,
but if you do any work inside then the vapor cartridges are necessary
as well. The only benefit to not wearing these is less work for your
embalmer.

Lastly: This is, of course, my opinnion. Every job can be done three
different ways, and I'm sure others in this group have equally good or
better options. I hope they share them.
Cheers
mickey

It looks to me in the photos that you didn't grind off the bottom paint
before applying the glass. If so, the glass will not adhere for long and
you should peel or grind it off.

The correct repair of a wound like this is not trivial. Any less is a waste
of time and will not go unnoticed when a potential buyer surveys the boat.
Doing it right requires gaining access to the site, lots of grinding and
considerable thickness of glass. There's more in the West System pamphlet:

002-550 Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance
Softcover-84 pages.
A complete, illustrated guide to most fiberglass boat repair problems.
Includes detailed instructions on repairing rotted stringers and frames,
delamination, keel damage. Also covers fairing keels, hardware bonding,
finishing and installing teak veneers.




"joeb" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello. I was hoping that I could get some advice on repairing
fiberglass on a damaged keel. I was out on Lake Erie and lost my engine
and ended up slamming into the breakwall a few times before getting a
tow. It put a 1"x3" hole in the side of my keel. I've read up on
fiberglass repair, including the book "The Fiberglass Boat Repair
Manual."

My question is this... The flat bottom of the keel was not very
accessible, so I just wrapped the fiberglass around and under the keel.
Is this going to cause me any long term problems? Ideally, I would've
ground out around the bottom like I did the top, but I just couldn't
get access without lifting the boat off the trailer.

----------------------------------|
\ (keel) /
\ /
\--------|xxxxx|-----/

(damaged area is the xxxx's)

The boat is old and cosmetics aren't important. I just want a sound,
safe repair. I've applied about 5-6 layers of 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
w/Mas Resin & Fast Hardner. I'd rather not grind it all down and start
over if it's good enough as is.

Pictures of the repair can be found @
http://csilo.com/randomphotos.aspx?f...og/boatrepair/

Thanks for your advice,
Joe

Hi Jim. Thanks for the reply.

Yes, you're right. I failed to grind off the paint on the flat bottom
of the keel. I knew that I didn't have enough room to get my grinder
under there, while on the trailer, and it didn't even occur to me to
try anything else.

It still seems like it has a really good bond (subjective, I know). I'm
hoping that instead of tearing it all off and starting over, that I'll
be able to just file back around the edges and put one more layer on. I
guess my real concern is the edges peeling off.

My main objective is something that is safe for the remainder of the
season. If winter hits and I have to start over, then I'm only out $70
in supplies.

I would not rely on the bottom paint to adhere. Sand off the bottom
paint, and clean, dewax, etc. Grind around the area to bare glass;
clean and dewax again. Fill in with epoxy as above, and lay some glass
down as you've done. This should cost you less than your $70, but will
require additional work in the winter
Y