Undocking - the hole in the middle.
 

Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

To pull out of a slip backwards singlehanded with my 33' Hunter, I lock
the rudder over the way I want to back out, untie, hop out onto the dock
and holding the bow rail, walk the boat out of the slip. It will turn a
little in the correct direction usually but if it's not enough, as I
reach the end of the dock I give the bow a little boost sideways in the
correct direction as I hop on. This always gets me facing the right
direction. I make my way back to the helm, unlock the wheel and
straighten the rudder. Put it in forward and off we go.


--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Stephen Trapani wrote:

To pull out of a slip backwards singlehanded with my 33' Hunter, I lock
the rudder over the way I want to back out, untie, hop out onto the dock
and holding the bow rail, walk the boat out of the slip. It will turn a
little in the correct direction usually but if it's not enough, as I
reach the end of the dock I give the bow a little boost sideways in the
correct direction as I hop on. This always gets me facing the right
direction. I make my way back to the helm, unlock the wheel and
straighten the rudder. Put it in forward and off we go.


Erm... Presumably hope like hell that you don't slip and lose grip on
your baby? Or do you take the precaution of having a line connecting
self and boat?

I've got the added problem in Tropic Bird of an offset prop. All astern
is really good for is taking way off, she just goes where she wants to
going astern...
JM

Roger Long wrote:
snip...
The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?


When I was crewing on a Mirage 33, I would stay on the slip and hold
onto the boat while the skipper backed out. I would time it so that I
could jump back on just before the shrouds were equal to the end of the
slip. On this boat he had a fixed three blade prop so it did back out
better than his previous boat with the two bladed folding prop.

Did you try backing out without lines? If you did, did you leave the
engine in reverse the whole time and did you use any rudder?
How long a lead did you have on your after fwd spring (when you used the
line method)?

otn

"Roger Long" wrote:

Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

Well we have a bigger heavier boat than you do. It's called a 44, but
actually measures about 50 feet and is 37,000 lbs with a 60 hp (at
best) inboard and a modified full keel. We can't turn like a fin keel
boat can, so this may not be applicable to you.

Bob can spin the boat on the mast (at least if there isn't too much
wind or current), by holding wheel over steady in one position and
using the engine alternately in forward and reverse.

We also do a LOT of coming into and going out of slips as when we go
up and down the ICW we mostly spend every night at a dock so we have a
lot of practice at that.. Because we have a dinghy on davits, we
always go into the slip bow first.

When we get ready to leave a place, Bob carefully assesses the wind
and current. Generally, he shortens up the lines and takes off all
the lines except those to the windward. He then starts the engine (or
I do), and turns the wheel in the direction he wants to go initially.
The engine is still in neutral..

All of the lines are led around pilings (or if necessary cleats
although that is harder) and back to the boat. Then he tells me what
he's going to do, and I stand by the last line that we will cast off
with a boat hook. As he starts to back out, I walk the boat out (if
it is a spring line) and/or cast that line off. I sometimes will grab
a pole with the boat hook to pull the bow over to one side or the
other side of the slip especially if she doesn't seem to be backing
the direction that Bob wants.

Sometimes he wants me to back out, but I get easily confused as to
which direction to turn the wheel to go what direction in reverse, so
he doesn't do that unless he can set the wheel so that I don't have to
turn it.

I'd suggest that you practice backing the boat around a 'no wake' buoy
or something similar until you get familiar with the way your boat
backs. Or else, back into the slip.




grandma Rosalie

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it until
today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light enough
to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up to the dock,
jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in larger boats has all
been as crew and most of those boats have been 60 feet and over so
everything was done with well orchestrated line handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the stern
walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the slip
(mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock line
is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get out
of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on the
schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then set
a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in and the
bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the boat enough in
the slip that she would have to straighten out in backing and about double
the distance I could back before the stern swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under the
counter but the boat didn't move. More power, nothing. It was dead calm
but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as the prop
will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still didn't turn. I
finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and we backed out
taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our mythical slip mate as
we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade prop
on a heavy 32 foot boat isn't going to do squat in fancy line maneuvers.
I'm going to have to make sure I always invite some big guests for every
sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the spring.
If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine to move it while
firmly attached. Someone else suggested practicing in a non-threatening
spot... good suggestion.

We typically back into the wind to get off a side tie with not much room on
the other side. We're parallel parked between two other boats with maybe
2-foot clearance fore and aft. Fortunately, the propwalk to port is away
from the dock, but the boat will turn in either direction if it's moving a
bit first. We've got a fairly heavy 30 footer with a single cylindar Yan.
There's not enough room to do a U turn coming back in even at high tide, so
we either have to back upwind down a narrow road or spin the boat manually
after a straight in drive.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I have a Bruce Roberts 53ft with a long fin keel, 25 ton displacement, 3
blade fixed prop and an 80hp engine. I find that if I use short bursts of
astern (rather than continuous) The rudder has a bigger say in the
proceedings and I suffer much less prop walk. Once she is moving astern, the
prop is maintaining boat speed and no longer trying to accelerate, it almost
feel like I have control

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

Roger Long wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.


Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.


In the same vein - a boat that stayed next to ours needed to spin 180
to get out. They kept a line tied to the end of the dock and cleated
to a stern cleat. There was enough slack so that when backed out of
its slip it would snub the stern and pull it to that side. It would
then do a sharp 90 turn in reverse. At that point they would drop the
line and continue in forward. The line would sink, unless some nice
bystander (like me) would haul it up. It was a very elegant maneuver,
especially if you didn't notice the line.

"Roger Long" wrote:

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Also I seem to remember that in reverse the rudder has less ability to
turn the boat, and that I must not turn the wheel hard over in reverse
because if I do, the rudder is less effective.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

We too use a spring line on the dock to anchor the bow usually while
we drive into it to get the stern in to a face dock. But sometimes we
will use one to pivot the boat while coming out of the slip.

In our home slip of course, we don't cast the lines off and bring them
aboard, we hang them up on the pilings or leave them on the dock.

grandma Rosalie

Great thread. Some of I summarized a long time ago, and it is
semi-permanently posted he

www.boatdocking.com/other/Sternway.html

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
...
We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the stern
walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the slip
(mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock line
is concerned....

Another thought.
You say a long dock, does it or a piling extend beyond the stern cleat? If
it does far enough, tie a line to it and the stern cleat with enough slack
when its perpendicular to the boat centerline to just keep you out of the
neighbors yard.
Back out and let the stern swing, when you get passed the piling or dock
cleat the line will start swinging the stern back toward the dock. Cast off
as appropriate and watch to be sure you don't swing the bow into your
neighbor. The stern will come back much faster than it swung out.
BF


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I'm familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn't move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn't turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn't going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I'm going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

Sounds like your prop is way aft and the torque has a strong affect on
the boat.
If so, I call it popping reverse, put it in reverse add throttle and
then quickly reduce throtle, and take out of gear. Repeat as required.
Just do leave it in gear very long. Have the rudder turned the way you
want to go. I learned this on my first single screw cruiser, and it
worked fine on my 30 ft. Hunter.

Coupla points:
1. Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.
Just go astern long enough to get the boat moving in the basic direction
you want. Since you know you will get an immediate propwalk to port,
have your rudder hard right, so that as soon as you take it out of gear,
what little effect the rudder might have at this speed and direction,
can be used and not overcome by the propwalk.

2. Be careful of leaving slack in a line and then getting sternway and
coming up tight on the line to get a particular maneuver .... you are
putting some potentially dangerous shock loads on the line and cleats.
Instead, maybe try different leads on the line you will use. In the case
of the spring, try longer and shorter leads and different locations on
the boat and/or dock, if possible.
Also, if you have help, have your line handler work the line .... you
can get sternway and still maintain a slight strain on the line, then
snub it ( I know, it's a shock load, but done correctly it can greatly
reduce that load) when you want to get a reaction (a good line handler
can make a bad docking look great and a great docking look bad).

otn

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote:

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Also I seem to remember that in reverse the rudder has less ability to
turn the boat, and that I must not turn the wheel hard over in reverse
because if I do, the rudder is less effective.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

We too use a spring line on the dock to anchor the bow usually while
we drive into it to get the stern in to a face dock. But sometimes we
will use one to pivot the boat while coming out of the slip.

In our home slip of course, we don't cast the lines off and bring them
aboard, we hang them up on the pilings or leave them on the dock.

grandma Rosalie

I find that you have to be really careful to keep the rudder amidships when
in reverse, because the action on the rudder will cause the wheel or tiller
to slam violently to one side if it gets much passed centerline. You can use
this if you're prepared for it. If you're not prepared for it, fingers or
wrists broken may be the result.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Nigel" wrote in message
...

I have a Bruce Roberts 53ft with a long fin keel, 25 ton displacement, 3
blade fixed prop and an 80hp engine. I find that if I use short bursts of
astern (rather than continuous) The rudder has a bigger say in the
proceedings and I suffer much less prop walk. Once she is moving astern,
the prop is maintaining boat speed and no longer trying to accelerate, it
almost feel like I have control


Yes, I've seen this in all the boats I've sailed. I saw a guy use this
technique on a 61ft steel sloop to basically park between two other larger
boats with inches to spare. It was quite impressive.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charles T. Low" [withoutUN] wrote in message
wsgroups.com...
Great thread. Some of I summarized a long time ago, and it is
semi-permanently posted he

www.boatdocking.com/other/Sternway.html

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
...
We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the
stern walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the
slip (mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock
line is concerned....


Thanks for the link.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine to
move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to accellerate
it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.


I've been accused of giving people worse things.. :-)

Would have worked great too except that I let the RPM's drop too far
while distracted trying to explain to the bow line handler that you
only have to untie one end of the doubled line to slip it (previously
explained but it didn't stick) and the engine quit. (I'm coming to
hate the shutdown with throttle arrangement. An eighth of an inch of
travel is the difference between idle and quitting. The engine should
remain on line until you explicitly want it to stop.) By the time I
got to the starter button and back to the wheel, the wind had us and
the anchor on the roller had gone through the phantom window of the
imaginary powerboat next door.

It probably would have worked fine if I'd been alone. I'd have cast
off the boat and then given my full attention to the rest. This
business of teaching line handling while learning docking is tough.
Nothing like, "You mean this line?", as the kid puts his hand on the
roller jib sheet, to kind of freeze your mental processes at a
critical moment.

--

Roger Long


Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from
the helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

Roger Long wrote:
Would have worked great too except that I let the RPM's drop too far
while distracted trying to explain to the bow line handler that you
only have to untie one end of the doubled line to slip it (previously
explained but it didn't stick) and the engine quit. (I'm coming to
hate the shutdown with throttle arrangement. An eighth of an inch of
travel is the difference between idle and quitting. The engine should
remain on line until you explicitly want it to stop.) By the time I
got to the starter button and back to the wheel, the wind had us and
the anchor on the roller had gone through the phantom window of the
imaginary powerboat next door.

It probably would have worked fine if I'd been alone. I'd have cast
off the boat and then given my full attention to the rest. This
business of teaching line handling while learning docking is tough.
Nothing like, "You mean this line?", as the kid puts his hand on the
roller jib sheet, to kind of freeze your mental processes at a
critical moment.

It seems to be impossible to predict how line handlers will react.
Worst of all are the well meaning passers-by that think that any line
they can reach must be pulled in and snubbed as tight as possible.
After a dozen years I've finally convinced my wife that she has the
authority to "wave off" anyone that won't listen to her instructions.

I've resorted to color coding all the dock lines, so I can tell people
"the blue line leads aft." And I've wrapped yellow tape on the dock
cleat that gets the first spring line. My final step was to feed a
lifeline cable inside some single braid line so that the loop stays
open and the last 5 feet are stiff enough so that my wife can snag the
cleat as we pass by. The line is set up to snub us just as we
approach the boat in front. If the wind is off the dock I can power
against it to bring the stern in. Today, of course, the helpful
dockhand thought this must be a mistake and tried to remove it just
before it snubbed up!

The other trick I liked on my old boat is a line running from bow to
stern with about 8 feet of slack. Someone that steps to the dock with
this line can control both the bow and the stern. If there is a cleat
in the middle of the slip it can serve as both bow and stern springs.

"Roger Long" wrote:

Would have worked great too except that I let the RPM's drop too far
while distracted trying to explain to the bow line handler that you
only have to untie one end of the doubled line to slip it (previously

This is YOUR fault. You need to explain IN ADVANCE exactly what you
are going to do and what the line handler is going to do, and have
their hand on the line that you want them to be doing something with -
make them repeat it back to you, or whatever it takes.

Bob has learned (and so have I) that it isn't enough for him to say
'you cast off the bow spring' to me. He has to articulate the whole
plan, and I have to repeat it back to him EACH TIME. He can't take it
for granted that I will be able to make the connection if he doesn't
articulate it.

Also if I understand what he is going to be doing with the boat,
sometimes I can help in ways that he has not anticipated.. Like if he
is counting on prop walk to move the stern to the port, and it isn't
doing it, I can pull the bow over to starboard.

Sometimes, even if I let go of one end of the doubled line (we don't
have both ends tied when we are casting off - we just have one end
attached and I hold the other end in my hand, pulling the boat in or
letting it out as necessary), it will bind or stick on something (like
a crack in the boards on the dock or it will get caught around a
piling) so it is necessary to flip it off. Since I don't flip well, I
have to have a boat hook close to hand, just in case.

explained but it didn't stick) and the engine quit. (I'm coming to
hate the shutdown with throttle arrangement. An eighth of an inch of
travel is the difference between idle and quitting. The engine should
remain on line until you explicitly want it to stop.) By the time I
got to the starter button and back to the wheel, the wind had us and
the anchor on the roller had gone through the phantom window of the
imaginary powerboat next door.

It probably would have worked fine if I'd been alone. I'd have cast
off the boat and then given my full attention to the rest. This
business of teaching line handling while learning docking is tough.
Nothing like, "You mean this line?", as the kid puts his hand on the
roller jib sheet, to kind of freeze your mental processes at a
critical moment.

See - you didn't explain it well enough.


grandma Rosalie

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...


It probably would have worked fine if I'd been alone. I'd have cast off
the boat and then given my full attention to the rest. This business of
teaching line handling while learning docking is tough. Nothing like, "You
mean this line?", as the kid puts his hand on the roller jib sheet, to
kind of freeze your mental processes at a critical moment.

BG As I said before and I repeat again .... a line handler can make a good
docking look bad and a bad docking look good.

Take the time to teach them not only the what, but the why and how.

otn

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:25:42 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:



To pull out of a slip backwards singlehanded with my 33' Hunter, I lock
the rudder over the way I want to back out, untie, hop out onto the dock
and holding the bow rail, walk the boat out of the slip. It will turn a
little in the correct direction usually but if it's not enough, as I
reach the end of the dock I give the bow a little boost sideways in the
correct direction as I hop on. This always gets me facing the right
direction. I make my way back to the helm, unlock the wheel and
straighten the rudder. Put it in forward and off we go.

That's pretty well what I do too. If I'm alone with my 33' fin keeler,
I have the engine in neutral, put the helm amidships (locked with
tiller tamer if necessary), and push it backwards HARD at the shrouds,
stepping onto the boat a few feet before the dock end.

Getting the boat moving can be difficult, but keeping it moving is
easy, even for my 110 lb, five-foot tall wife.

Again, if alone, I coast back until I am well clear of the adjacent
ancient monster ChrisCraft motorsailer (my length and twice my
displacement), and then helm over and engine in dead slow forward.

I also come into the dock in neutral and stop by dropping a midship
spring aft to a bollard, then stepping off with a stern line. This
usually stops the boat G and I have time to catch the bow and get a
line on.

R.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...

This is YOUR fault. You need to explain IN ADVANCE exactly what you
are going to do and what the line handler is going to do, and have
their hand on the line that you want them to be doing something
with -
make them repeat it back to you, or whatever it takes.

I agree 100%. This is the part I trying to learn. I do try to brief
and explain in advance but my crew is on the cusp of impatient,
know-it-all, teenagerhood . Their eyes roll long before I get through
a full explanation and they get that, "can't we just go sailing?"
look. Their mother breaks in and says, "Don't lecture them, just tell
them what you want them to do."

I do put their hand and the cleat and tell them to unwrap it and let
it go. Then I look up and find them fumbling with the end looped fast
into the other cleat that can't be undone because of the tension.
There is a fine line somewhere between boredom and conveying enough
information to cover all possible mix ups that I haven't found yet.

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...


This is YOUR fault. You need to explain IN ADVANCE exactly what you
are going to do and what the line handler is going to do, and have
their hand on the line that you want them to be doing something
with -
make them repeat it back to you, or whatever it takes.


I agree 100%. This is the part I trying to learn. I do try to brief
and explain in advance but my crew is on the cusp of impatient,
know-it-all, teenagerhood . Their eyes roll long before I get through
a full explanation and they get that, "can't we just go sailing?"
look. Their mother breaks in and says, "Don't lecture them, just tell
them what you want them to do."

I do put their hand and the cleat and tell them to unwrap it and let
it go. Then I look up and find them fumbling with the end looped fast
into the other cleat that can't be undone because of the tension.
There is a fine line somewhere between boredom and conveying enough
information to cover all possible mix ups that I haven't found yet.

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.

That's interesting- I'm finding that teaching seamanship on Tropic Bird
to my normally (previously) hugely recalcitrant and uncommunicative 16
year old son has given us common ground and is forging a new bond
between us. He's listening and learning and we're both enjoying the
process.

I can still rememeber in my teenagehood, before I turned human, that Dad
and I found the same common ground. And on the same boat, too...
JM

"Roger Long" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .

This is YOUR fault. You need to explain IN ADVANCE exactly what you
are going to do and what the line handler is going to do, and have
their hand on the line that you want them to be doing something
with -
make them repeat it back to you, or whatever it takes.

I agree 100%. This is the part I trying to learn. I do try to brief
and explain in advance but my crew is on the cusp of impatient,
know-it-all, teenagerhood . Their eyes roll long before I get through
a full explanation and they get that, "can't we just go sailing?"
look. Their mother breaks in and says, "Don't lecture them, just tell
them what you want them to do."

Explain to her too what you want to do. Have her sit and keep the
engine going. Make her steer (!!!). That will keep her too busy to
complain.


I do put their hand and the cleat and tell them to unwrap it and let
it go. Then I look up and find them fumbling with the end looped fast
into the other cleat that can't be undone because of the tension.

I would also suggest again that you don't have the line attached at
the end that you want him to undo. Stand there while he undoes it
and tell him that he will have to hold the boat in position, that he
has to do this task because his mom isn't strong enough to hold the
boat. This will give him importance.

There is a fine line somewhere between boredom and conveying enough
information to cover all possible mix ups that I haven't found yet.

One key is to ask questions instead of lecturing.

I want to get the boat out of the slip so that it doesn't hit a boat
that would be in this slip next to us - so it has to stay in this
area. How would you do that? (and then wait for him to formulate an
answer)

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.

My husband tends to yell and complain a lot about my skills, but I
don't get upset about it most of the time. Another person might.
That's why all those sailing schools for women emphasize that there
will be no yelling.

grandma Rosalie

That's interesting- I'm finding that teaching seamanship on Tropic
Bird to my normally (previously) hugely recalcitrant and
uncommunicative 16 year old son has given us common ground and is
forging a new bond between us. He's listening and learning and
we're both enjoying the process.

I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they
are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote:


That's interesting- I'm finding that teaching seamanship on Tropic
Bird to my normally (previously) hugely recalcitrant and
uncommunicative 16 year old son has given us common ground and is
forging a new bond between us. He's listening and learning and
we're both enjoying the process.

I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they

OH - well my dad used to say - one boy is one boy, two boys is half a
boy and three boys is no boy at all.

are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

If it is at all possible, let them do the whole thing themselves, and
you and their mother just sit by and let them do it (no coaching).
They've done it at least once at this point, so they should be able to
figure it out, and at least now, there's nothing there to hit in the
next slip.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.


Mom to 4
(dd#1 age 44, dd#2 age 42, dd#3 age 37, ds age 34)

grandmom to 10
(dgs age 25, dgd age 23, dgs would be 14 if still living,
dgs age 12, dgs age 11, dgs age 11, dgd age 9, dgs age 7,
dgd age 5, and dgd agev4)

I keep my rudder amidships and put the tranny in reverse just long enough to
get the boat moving, then neutral, coast, reverse, neutral, coast, and so on
until I'm out of the slip. It'll stay pretty straight as long as you get it
out of gear before it starts to walk.
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it until
today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light enough
to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up to the dock,
jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in larger boats has all
been as crew and most of those boats have been 60 feet and over so
everything was done with well orchestrated line handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the stern
walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the slip
(mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock line
is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get out
of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on the
schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then set
a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in and the
bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the boat enough in
the slip that she would have to straighten out in backing and about double
the distance I could back before the stern swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under the
counter but the boat didn't move. More power, nothing. It was dead calm
but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as the prop
will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still didn't turn. I
finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and we backed out
taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our mythical slip mate as
we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade prop
on a heavy 32 foot boat isn't going to do squat in fancy line maneuvers.
I'm going to have to make sure I always invite some big guests for every
sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:

I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they
are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.

I think we all can appreciate this, but I think you cannot afford to
bring personal or family dynamics into a necessary lead/follow
situation which involves actions that control the safety of property &
lives. ISTM you (and they) would be better off to lay out & explain
the entire plan with all participants on the dock and in specific,
behavioral terms before anyone even steps aboard. You may also make it
clear that the plan is in trial, may be flawed, may require subsequent
changes or refinements, and that *you* are responsible for all of it
from beginning to end. This takes less time than to do than type, and
often saves much confusion or conflict aboard, especially when we
ourselves may be uncertain of how our plan will work and may have to be
concentrating on our *own* corrective options to save the moment.
Doing it on the dock also conveys the high importance of it to even
sailing at all, without having to say so.

IOW, it is easy to forget what good leadership is when we are dealing
with relatives or family, and most need it. Some people even benefit
from or need to be shown exactly how to snub or handle a specific line
on a specific cleat/bit/bollard by seeing you do it first. Some even
need to be shown what you may mean by something as simple as "let go."

If you find part of your strategy includes gaining a little sternway
against a slack springer, consider adding your choice of effective line
shock absorbing device, it shines here, and adds some safety as well.
I use a number of similar springline strategies when singlehanding
in/out of tight places & like the black rubber double-dildos. ;-)

As for parenting & instilling patience, cooperation & obedience, it
ended at around age 12 & you have to work with whatever your best
efforts did/didn't produce. If the lady is likewise undermining your
efforts to pull them together, that didn't start with sailing either,
and you did pick her, yes? :-) I suggest solving the latter problem
first, because a lot of expensive boats are sold at very deep discounts
this way. In fact, it's the only way some of us can afford one.

Roger Long wrote:

snipped

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.


Roger,
That's because a stranger will give you the "benefit of the doubt",
kids just don't give it to parents. :-)
Paul

Paul Schilter wrote:


Roger Long wrote:

snipped

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.


Roger,
That's because a stranger will give you the "benefit of the doubt",
kids just don't give it to parents. :-)
Paul

Sounds familiar. I was trying to teach my youngest son to curb park
today...he has his drivers test on Tuesday. Finally after bouncing my
rear wheel of the curb a few times and scuffing the sidewalls, he tells
me not to say anything. He wants to do it like the test...with the
tester observing..not directing. I got out ..stood on the curb and
watched him bump into it another half dozen times...

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Roger Long wrote:
That's interesting- I'm finding that teaching seamanship on Tropic
Bird to my normally (previously) hugely recalcitrant and
uncommunicative 16 year old son has given us common ground and is
forging a new bond between us. He's listening and learning and
we're both enjoying the process.


I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they
are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.


Ah, sybling synergistics, a frightening thought...

I'm lucky. Of my three, the oldest, an 18 year old girl, looks on
Tropic Bird as nothing more than a receptacle in which to hold partys.
The middle one, already mentioned 16 year old son is a different person
on the boat. The youngest, a twelve year old girl, is watching with
interest as her brother learns and I suspect we'll make a sailor of her,
too. The interaction between the two who are interested in Tropic Bird
as a boat, not a booze dispensing machine is all positive.
JM

Jeff wrote:

(stuff deleted)

The other trick I liked on my old boat is a line running from bow to
stern with about 8 feet of slack. Someone that steps to the dock with
this line can control both the bow and the stern. If there is a cleat
in the middle of the slip it can serve as both bow and stern springs.

When I used to single-hand my 31 footer I would tie the bow and stern
lines together - same as your idea, but with the existing lines. Works
well.
Larry Bradley VE3CRX
Remove "removeme" from my e-mail address for direct mail
Ottawa, Canada

(use the e-mail address above to send directly to me)

In article .net,
otnmbrd wrote:

Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.

This is SO true. Pour on a fair amount of power, then hit neutral. That
seems to back us with little walk, then without the prop spinning, we
can turn wherever we want.

When coming port side to, if I want to pull the stern in, I back at just
above idle. If I want to stop without walk, I give it that "fair amount"
of power.

Take the boat out and try various power settings near something you
don't mind hitting. I think you'll be surprised.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
In article .net,
otnmbrd wrote:


Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.


This is SO true. Pour on a fair amount of power, then hit neutral. That
seems to back us with little walk, then without the prop spinning, we
can turn wherever we want.

When coming port side to, if I want to pull the stern in, I back at just
above idle. If I want to stop without walk, I give it that "fair amount"
of power.

Take the boat out and try various power settings near something you
don't mind hitting. I think you'll be surprised.


"Pour on a fair amount of power", is going to depend on your set-up and
situation.
For some, using less power sooner may be the trick, as I generally find
that less power, less propwalk, but each condition can and will vary.

otn