Roger Long wrote:

I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they
are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.

I think we all can appreciate this, but I think you cannot afford to
bring personal or family dynamics into a necessary lead/follow
situation which involves actions that control the safety of property &
lives. ISTM you (and they) would be better off to lay out & explain
the entire plan with all participants on the dock and in specific,
behavioral terms before anyone even steps aboard. You may also make it
clear that the plan is in trial, may be flawed, may require subsequent
changes or refinements, and that *you* are responsible for all of it
from beginning to end. This takes less time than to do than type, and
often saves much confusion or conflict aboard, especially when we
ourselves may be uncertain of how our plan will work and may have to be
concentrating on our *own* corrective options to save the moment.
Doing it on the dock also conveys the high importance of it to even
sailing at all, without having to say so.

IOW, it is easy to forget what good leadership is when we are dealing
with relatives or family, and most need it. Some people even benefit
from or need to be shown exactly how to snub or handle a specific line
on a specific cleat/bit/bollard by seeing you do it first. Some even
need to be shown what you may mean by something as simple as "let go."

If you find part of your strategy includes gaining a little sternway
against a slack springer, consider adding your choice of effective line
shock absorbing device, it shines here, and adds some safety as well.
I use a number of similar springline strategies when singlehanding
in/out of tight places & like the black rubber double-dildos. ;-)

As for parenting & instilling patience, cooperation & obedience, it
ended at around age 12 & you have to work with whatever your best
efforts did/didn't produce. If the lady is likewise undermining your
efforts to pull them together, that didn't start with sailing either,
and you did pick her, yes? :-) I suggest solving the latter problem
first, because a lot of expensive boats are sold at very deep discounts
this way. In fact, it's the only way some of us can afford one.

Roger Long wrote:

snipped

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.


Roger,
That's because a stranger will give you the "benefit of the doubt",
kids just don't give it to parents. :-)
Paul

Paul Schilter wrote:


Roger Long wrote:

snipped

Strange thing is that I used to be a sailing instructor and was
considered a very good one. I used to take people (girls) who had
never been in a boat before in their life out in Solings on Sunday
afternoons in Boston Harbor and talk them through setting the
spinnaker (yes, I was young and dumb then). Everything seems to work
better with non-family members. A lot of this is normal family
dynamics spilling over onto the boat.


Roger,
That's because a stranger will give you the "benefit of the doubt",
kids just don't give it to parents. :-)
Paul

Sounds familiar. I was trying to teach my youngest son to curb park
today...he has his drivers test on Tuesday. Finally after bouncing my
rear wheel of the curb a few times and scuffing the sidewalls, he tells
me not to say anything. He wants to do it like the test...with the
tester observing..not directing. I got out ..stood on the curb and
watched him bump into it another half dozen times...

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Ahoy Captain Long:Here's the "chicken" solution=When your slipmate has
returned and you're ready to depart post one crew member on the side of
your boat that faces the slipmate.
Give them a fender--or better yet a round fishing bouy--and tell that
crew member to walk slowly down your deck so he/she is ALWAYS at the
point that looks like it will touch first.

At best it won't be needed; at worst it will be. Better to loose face
than paint or chrome.

LEnfantduVent
PS:You can tell the old salts at a dock or in a marina. They don't sit
with knuckles white around their glass. They calmly get out their boat
hook/fender and wait patiently until your--or the crisis--has passed.

Roger Long wrote:
That's interesting- I'm finding that teaching seamanship on Tropic
Bird to my normally (previously) hugely recalcitrant and
uncommunicative 16 year old son has given us common ground and is
forging a new bond between us. He's listening and learning and
we're both enjoying the process.


I think a key point here is the singular. My sons are totally
different people when either of them is with me alone. Together, they
are performing for each other and every nuance of every event is
bouncing off the other. Seeing if they can exercise the power of
getting the other one to do what they were asked to do instinctively
more important than keeping a boat from hitting a dock.

The most vital thing to the future of this boat is getting out with
them one on one but it's a tough thing to work into all the other
family agendas.


Ah, sybling synergistics, a frightening thought...

I'm lucky. Of my three, the oldest, an 18 year old girl, looks on
Tropic Bird as nothing more than a receptacle in which to hold partys.
The middle one, already mentioned 16 year old son is a different person
on the boat. The youngest, a twelve year old girl, is watching with
interest as her brother learns and I suspect we'll make a sailor of her,
too. The interaction between the two who are interested in Tropic Bird
as a boat, not a booze dispensing machine is all positive.
JM

Jeff wrote:

(stuff deleted)

The other trick I liked on my old boat is a line running from bow to
stern with about 8 feet of slack. Someone that steps to the dock with
this line can control both the bow and the stern. If there is a cleat
in the middle of the slip it can serve as both bow and stern springs.

When I used to single-hand my 31 footer I would tie the bow and stern
lines together - same as your idea, but with the existing lines. Works
well.
Larry Bradley VE3CRX
Remove "removeme" from my e-mail address for direct mail
Ottawa, Canada

(use the e-mail address above to send directly to me)

In article .net,
otnmbrd wrote:

Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.

This is SO true. Pour on a fair amount of power, then hit neutral. That
seems to back us with little walk, then without the prop spinning, we
can turn wherever we want.

When coming port side to, if I want to pull the stern in, I back at just
above idle. If I want to stop without walk, I give it that "fair amount"
of power.

Take the boat out and try various power settings near something you
don't mind hitting. I think you'll be surprised.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
In article .net,
otnmbrd wrote:


Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.


This is SO true. Pour on a fair amount of power, then hit neutral. That
seems to back us with little walk, then without the prop spinning, we
can turn wherever we want.

When coming port side to, if I want to pull the stern in, I back at just
above idle. If I want to stop without walk, I give it that "fair amount"
of power.

Take the boat out and try various power settings near something you
don't mind hitting. I think you'll be surprised.


"Pour on a fair amount of power", is going to depend on your set-up and
situation.
For some, using less power sooner may be the trick, as I generally find
that less power, less propwalk, but each condition can and will vary.

otn