Jere Lull wrote:
In article ,
Terry Spragg wrote:


Garland Gray II wrote:


I'd put two half hitches on that list, right behind the bowline

Would you call that a reef knot, or a granny?


Two half hitches are neither reef knot nor a granny. Nor are the reef
and granny the same.

Sorry, I think I can convince you otherwise.

Try this: Untie your sneaker. Step by step, retie it. Tie the
first overhand "knot", and look carefully. It's a half hitch, you
can hold one end taut (this becomes the bitter end of the standing
part, since you can't mess with it, it gets very bitter if you twist
the free end on it, and it's the other end or the working part, the
free or moving end) and look at what happens when you move the other
end around, left to right, above or below the standing part. You
get a half hitch. Tie another.

I depends on the orientation (left or right) of the exit of the
(knot bitter, nor taught bound, end, but the the working, free,
end), as to wether you will end up with a reef or a granny. Two half
hitches is an inverted reef, if you orient the underside rotation of
the top half hitch in the "correct" way, depending on whether you
start on the left end or the right end. Relativism is involved.
You know, tie a reef. Pull one line tight, slide the two half
hitches off. Tie the second half hitch the other way, and you got a
granny, if you stretch the "used to be the free end" taut, and look
at the result. It's a mathematical relationship expressible in the
languge of knots, much of which I do not know. There is an
intermediate stage to this transformation, and it is called a clove
hitch, all from various combinations and views of two half hitches.
Turn the clove hitch (tied around the other shoelace) inside out, so
to speak, and you get a granny, all because you pulled one or the
other end straight.

Convinced?

Terry K



Now, one knot that I use all the time that I don't know the name of is a
relative of the first: a half hitch with a loop taken through the hitch
instead of the bitter end. I use it to gasket the main and temporarily
set the fenders. Releases by simply pulling on the free end. Can be
locked by taking the loop through a second hitch. Very handy and very
fast to undo, even under fairly high strain.

Red Cloud® wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:33:55 -0500, sherwindu wrote:


Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I have an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.



I once saw a setup like that on a smaller keelboat owned by somone who was very
new to sailing. He ended up having a somewhat bad day when coming about in 15+
knot winds. The snap shackle on his 130% genoa snapped itself around a shroud as
it dragged across. You can imagine the rest.

rusty redcloud

A carabiner or other snap in shackles are bad news for jib sheets,
as thet will grab anything they hit right: shrouds, forestays, other
lines, whatever.

A proper snap shackle has a hinged, curved end which snaps
reluctantly over a locking pin. It is opened by retracting the pin.
The keeper on the end of the spring loaded pin can catch a shroud
and open the shackle.

A granny or bowline is the best sheet knot, neither get caught on
shrouds much. Tie appropriate sheets to every jib and re-reeve them
through the fairleads most appropriate for that sail. Most jib
changes will involve a better suited lead, inside the shrouds or
outside, etc.

Seizing a simple half loop through the cringle is best, and can be
removed by cutting the seizing sewn through the lines. It does not
hang up on anything, if you are artful with the seizing.

If you must use a shackle, use a regular twist pin chain style
shackle with a flat headed, knurled pin or a halyard spring lock
captive pin shackle with a modest twist lock knob.

Seems to me I saw an experimental setup once that used a u shaped
plastic thing snapped loosely through the clew. It had a groove
around it's neck's half-ends, which snapped inside the sheet clip.
A retracting collar on the clip loosened a ball bearing lock, like
on a ball lock pin. The sheet snap was siezed onto the doubled
sheet. Very sleek looking. Still, the y where the two sheets
diverge can get hung on a shroud. Costly. Not cost effective, even
in plastic, IMHO. A hinged metal thing would be stronger than ten
years in the sun plastic. Costlier?

Tacking a lot is a bitch, if you don't have a self tending jib sail
of appropriate size, sheeted close inboard and capable of driving
the boat near hull speed (ahem!) upwind in a moderate breeze when
flying in formation with the right main. Reef early. With a self
tacker, you just steer to tack. Most big fore sails are way too big,
bagged out, sheeted outside, cannot go to windward well unless the
wind is exactly the right strength. The rail should never go under
much, except in gusts. At high hull speeds, the apparrent wind is
too strong, bagging out all but the very best rigs and brand new
giant jibs, which act like a brake and a weight, heeling you.

To windward you need some torque for accelleration but as speed
increases, you need flat sails closely sheeted. You will always have
too much wind if you have too much sail. Fall off a bit if you
lost speed in the turn, regain speed, and harden up.

Terry K

Terry Spragg wrote:

Please see sorrection in my text below [full loop] If you want, try
a single half hitch as a loop, and seize it with plenty of sewn
thread. -TK

Red Cloud® wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:33:55 -0500, sherwindu
wrote:


Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I
have an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached.
For quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.



I once saw a setup like that on a smaller keelboat owned by somone who
was very
new to sailing. He ended up having a somewhat bad day when coming
about in 15+
knot winds. The snap shackle on his 130% genoa snapped itself around a
shroud as
it dragged across. You can imagine the rest.
rusty redcloud


A carabiner or other snap in shackles are bad news for jib sheets, as
thet will grab anything they hit right: shrouds, forestays, other lines,
whatever.

A proper snap shackle has a hinged, curved end which snaps reluctantly
over a locking pin. It is opened by retracting the pin. The keeper on
the end of the spring loaded pin can catch a shroud and open the shackle.

[not to mention bashing your face when it flogs -tk]


A granny or bowline is the best sheet knot, neither get caught on
shrouds much. Tie appropriate sheets to every jib and re-reeve them
through the fairleads most appropriate for that sail. Most jib changes
will involve a better suited lead, inside the shrouds or outside, etc.

Seizing a simple half loop [should read "full loop" -tk]through the cringle is best, and can be
removed by cutting the seizing sewn through the lines. It does not hang
up on anything, if you are artful with the seizing.

If you must use a shackle, use a regular twist pin chain style shackle
with a flat headed, knurled pin or a halyard spring lock captive pin
shackle with a modest twist lock knob.

Seems to me I saw an experimental setup once that used a u shaped
plastic thing snapped loosely through the clew. It had a groove around
it's neck's half-ends, which snapped inside the sheet clip. A retracting
collar on the clip loosened a ball bearing lock, like on a ball lock
pin. The sheet snap was siezed onto the doubled sheet. Very sleek
looking. Still, the y where the two sheets diverge can get hung on a
shroud. Costly. Not cost effective, even in plastic, IMHO. A hinged
metal thing would be stronger than ten years in the sun plastic. Costlier?

Tacking a lot is a bitch, if you don't have a self tending jib sail of
appropriate size, sheeted close inboard and capable of driving the boat
near hull speed (ahem!) upwind in a moderate breeze when flying in
formation with the right main. Reef early. With a self tacker, you just
steer to tack. Most big fore sails are way too big, bagged out, sheeted
outside, cannot go to windward well unless the wind is exactly the right
strength. The rail should never go under much, except in gusts. At high
hull speeds, the apparrent wind is too strong, bagging out all but the
very best rigs and brand new giant jibs, which act like a brake and a
weight, heeling you.

To windward you need some torque for accelleration but as speed
increases, you need flat sails closely sheeted. You will always have
too much wind if you have too much sail. Fall off a bit if you lost
speed in the turn, regain speed, and harden up.

Terry K

I don't know guys? I have been sailing with this jib arrangement over 30 years in all
kinds of weather, and never had a problem. Maybe I am lucky or I pay attention to not allowing the
sheets to flail about more than necessary?

Sherwin D.

Terry Spragg wrote:

Red Cloud® wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:33:55 -0500, sherwindu wrote:


Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I have an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.



I once saw a setup like that on a smaller keelboat owned by somone who was very
new to sailing. He ended up having a somewhat bad day when coming about in 15+
knot winds. The snap shackle on his 130% genoa snapped itself around a shroud as
it dragged across. You can imagine the rest.

rusty redcloud

A carabiner or other snap in shackles are bad news for jib sheets,
as thet will grab anything they hit right: shrouds, forestays, other
lines, whatever.

A proper snap shackle has a hinged, curved end which snaps
reluctantly over a locking pin. It is opened by retracting the pin.
The keeper on the end of the spring loaded pin can catch a shroud
and open the shackle.

A granny or bowline is the best sheet knot, neither get caught on
shrouds much. Tie appropriate sheets to every jib and re-reeve them
through the fairleads most appropriate for that sail. Most jib
changes will involve a better suited lead, inside the shrouds or
outside, etc.

Seizing a simple half loop through the cringle is best, and can be
removed by cutting the seizing sewn through the lines. It does not
hang up on anything, if you are artful with the seizing.

If you must use a shackle, use a regular twist pin chain style
shackle with a flat headed, knurled pin or a halyard spring lock
captive pin shackle with a modest twist lock knob.

Seems to me I saw an experimental setup once that used a u shaped
plastic thing snapped loosely through the clew. It had a groove
around it's neck's half-ends, which snapped inside the sheet clip.
A retracting collar on the clip loosened a ball bearing lock, like
on a ball lock pin. The sheet snap was siezed onto the doubled
sheet. Very sleek looking. Still, the y where the two sheets
diverge can get hung on a shroud. Costly. Not cost effective, even
in plastic, IMHO. A hinged metal thing would be stronger than ten
years in the sun plastic. Costlier?

Tacking a lot is a bitch, if you don't have a self tending jib sail
of appropriate size, sheeted close inboard and capable of driving
the boat near hull speed (ahem!) upwind in a moderate breeze when
flying in formation with the right main. Reef early. With a self
tacker, you just steer to tack. Most big fore sails are way too big,
bagged out, sheeted outside, cannot go to windward well unless the
wind is exactly the right strength. The rail should never go under
much, except in gusts. At high hull speeds, the apparrent wind is
too strong, bagging out all but the very best rigs and brand new
giant jibs, which act like a brake and a weight, heeling you.

To windward you need some torque for accelleration but as speed
increases, you need flat sails closely sheeted. You will always have
too much wind if you have too much sail. Fall off a bit if you
lost speed in the turn, regain speed, and harden up.

Terry K

Yes, fast is better. Fooling around with knots on a slippery pitching or rolling foredeck trying
to tie or untie a stubborn knot seems more dangerous to me.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I have
an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For
quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.

Sherwin D.

Gordon wrote:

What's the best knot for attaching the sheets to the jib? Gotta be
something better than the "pesky wabbit around the tree and down the
hole"
knot.
Thanks
Gordon

--

Ask not for whom the terrorist bell tolls; it tolls for thee, and thee,
and
thee--for decent, innocent people everywhere.


I think this is a very bad idea... those shackles can do a lot of damage in
high winds. Fast isn't necessarily best.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Yes, fast is better. Fooling around with knots on a slippery pitching or
rolling foredeck trying
to tie or untie a stubborn knot seems more dangerous to me.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I
have
an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For
quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.

Sherwin D.

Gordon wrote:

What's the best knot for attaching the sheets to the jib? Gotta be
something better than the "pesky wabbit around the tree and down the
hole"
knot.
Thanks
Gordon

--

Ask not for whom the terrorist bell tolls; it tolls for thee, and
thee,
and
thee--for decent, innocent people everywhere.


I think this is a very bad idea... those shackles can do a lot of damage
in
high winds. Fast isn't necessarily best.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


Fast is not better if the compromise is a shackle that can do damage to a
person in a blink of an eye. Good knots (as you've said) are what's needed,
not some foolishness about shackles.

If you didn't realize it, I was basically agreeing with you. I also have
never had a problem with a bowline coming undone on a jib sheet.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

And while your at it, get rid of booms which probably account for many more
injuries than getting hit by an errant shackle.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Yes, fast is better. Fooling around with knots on a slippery pitching or
rolling foredeck trying
to tie or untie a stubborn knot seems more dangerous to me.

Sherwin D.

"Capt. JG" wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I
have
an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For
quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.

Sherwin D.

Gordon wrote:

What's the best knot for attaching the sheets to the jib? Gotta be
something better than the "pesky wabbit around the tree and down the
hole"
knot.
Thanks
Gordon

--

Ask not for whom the terrorist bell tolls; it tolls for thee, and
thee,
and
thee--for decent, innocent people everywhere.


I think this is a very bad idea... those shackles can do a lot of damage
in
high winds. Fast isn't necessarily best.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


Fast is not better if the compromise is a shackle that can do damage to a
person in a blink of an eye. Good knots (as you've said) are what's needed,
not some foolishness about shackles.

If you didn't realize it, I was basically agreeing with you. I also have
never had a problem with a bowline coming undone on a jib sheet.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:33:55 -0500, sherwindu
wrote:

Hi Gordon,
I think the best knot for attaching sheets is no knot, at all. I have an 'eye' woven
into the middle of my sheets, to which a snap shackle is attached. For quick and clean
attachment/removal, I don't think any knot can beat that.

Sherwin D.

There isn't any knot which is quite so good at braining the crew on
the fordeck either....


PyroJames
Would arsonists please try to control themselves for the duration of the emergency.