I apologize for seeming to be critical and I hope that you and your
family really enjoy your boat. Endeavors really are nice.

I agree with you 100% about the roller furling gear. I had hoped to
find a boat without so I could endanger my family even more by having
to do foredeck work every time the sail went up and down and not just
when we needed a different size.

After we bought this boat, I thought for a while of trying to do an
exchange with someone but finally decided there would be plenty to do
and learn in the first year. In my heart, I knew I would become so
used to the convenience that it's probably here to stay.

If it were just my wife and I cruising in this boat, I would leave the
rig with everything led aft.

--

Roger Long

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed "Roger Long"
felt compelled to write:

wrote in message
oups.com...
There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them
go up on the cabin top for no reason.

Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger
your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a
sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging
around.

Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats
they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work
safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail
with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes
more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the
cockpit as possible.

I agree with you, Roger. I've had plenty of amusement watching folk
attempting to reef from the cockpit running downwind, or worse; after
bearing off in a gust, trying to round up across a steep following sea
to drop the pressure out of the sails for a reef. I prefer to work the
halyards and rigged reef lines (including a cunningham d/haul from the
base of the mast.

Even if equipped with a furler, some conditions demand headsails
changed or removed, these tasks cannot be performed from the cockpit.
Going forward is an integral part of sailing, it can hardly be
accurately described 'endangering your children for no reason'.

Ian

Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and
going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in
a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke.
Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails
is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the
foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing
the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller
furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do
a lot more sailing. especially single handed.
In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion
on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the
control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the
cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top.
Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it
the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the
smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for
him, not what seems "salty".

You're right. Running lines to the cockpit is almost as wimpy as enclosing
the helm on a research vessel. How could anyone who does that call
themselves a sailor? ;-}

As a dinghy sailor, I learned on boats that had all of the lines in the
cockpit. Wimpy boats, like Finns and 505's. I've never felt fully
comfortable on deck in a blow, though I've learned to cope when necessary.
I'm quite happy that my current boat (as did my previous) permits
most evolutions without leaving the cockpit.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that
has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all
line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has
some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions.

--

Roger Long

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In "Roger Long"
writes:

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.

Everybody can rig his boat the best way he knows about and there are
always some place for discussion. But anyone can have an opinion
about different alternatives to perform various tasks, I do not really
understand your reasoning.

I have all my controll lines, reefing lines and hallyards led after to
the cocpit. Still it does not mean, that I do not go to the foredeck.
I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one. Hoisting or lowering the jib has never
been a problem. On the other hand I have seen many problems caused by
the roller.

Quite a many couples sail with a crew of two. It is to me a good system
that the other can go if needed forward and still the other can pull the
ropes in the cockpit. For example by dowsing the jib or the main, it is
in many cases very convinient to have one handling the line from the
cockpit and the other one giving a hand to help the sail to come down or
letting loose a reefing line that is jammed. Even if you have a bundle
of kids to perform the task, one can do it from the cockpit.

Some people have the idea that if they have a furling gear they do not
have to change the sail. So far I have not seen a jib or genoa that is
strong enough to be used in 30 knots and light enough to be used in 6
knots of wind. Looks like most "sailors" solve this problem by motoring
as soon as the wind goes below 10 knots or above 20 knots.

At least my boat is sailing much better, not heeling so much and
pointing higher if I use a 15 square meter jib, that is made of fairly
heavy dacron and is cut very flat if the wind goes above 24 knots.
But when there is less than 12 knots of wind I like to have a bit more
sail, that is made from lighter material and is cut a bit fuller.

So far the furlers do not change the thicknes of the cloth but they
spoil the beautifull shape that the sailmaker has built in with so much
effort. Then I have a real storm jib that is only 7 square meters,
really strong and flat. So I end up changing the foresail once a while.
Then we cet the practice to go to the foredeck.

Even though it is important for the kids to learn to move around in the
boat, I have this funny idea, that it is more important to teach them to
sail properly, to learn about the trimming of the sails, getting the
sensation and the feeling of well trimmed sails and nicely moving boat.
Seems to me, that todays "sailors" with their furling gears have very
little time to sail, as they always have the wrong sail upp. Luckily
they feel it is so easy to roll it in, that they can start the engine
and drive home, but they can always hope that tomorrow we have the
optimal 10 to 16 knots of wind from a proper direction so they can sail
for a while.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


Hmmm... well, I certainly agree with much of what you say, but I've sailed
on the SF bay with 30kts wind while using a jib furler with no problems.
Some of the older furlers don't take kindly to being reefed but the new ones
don't have that fault. That said, I've also seen them fail... mostly in
lighter winds for some reason. I was on one boat on the bay when the jib
halyard parted in heavy air, but I don't know if you can blame the furler
for that.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article . com,
wrote:

I nearly bought an Endeavor 32 before I bought my 28' S2. I kinda like
the boat. However, I really reccomend that you keep the control lines
going tot eh cockpit. There is no reason the endanger your kids or
yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. I cannot
figure out why more boats do not lead halyards , etc to the cockpit.


On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably discovered
it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up right
at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the sail
up because of the drag.

It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight slab
reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A single
line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the
gooseneck than it was designed for.

If it's too wild to reef at the mast, it's usually time to get the main
down --fast-- and I can do that in a few seconds though it won't be neat.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

In Larry W4CSC writes:

(Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote in
:

I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one.

Ah, the simple pleasure of furling the main into its mast slot in a heavy
wind without even pointing up.....ahhh....

I have met a few fellows who shared your feelings until they met the
storm that spoiled the fun.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Thank you Monsieur Amel....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

You make a very good and valid point.
If you assume that eventually one HAS to go forward and do some work
when the deck is pitching, etc. those that are self confined to the
cockpit and lose or dont even have the foredeck dexterity will be at
supreme risk WHEN they have to go forward.
Physical dexterity on a pitching foredeck is a learned (and important)
skill. If one only sails in the 'safety' of the (enclosed) cockpit,
when the time comes to 'perform up front' that loss or absence of skill
will put that person and the boat at risk.




In article , Roger Long
wrote:

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.