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Strider Sails! - Halyard idea
We finally sailed "Strider".
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat20.htm#Latest Boat feels great. Heavy, smooth, reassuring, motion like a traditional boat but responsive and tight turning like a modern craft. Exactly the combination I was looking for. We had a short period with plenty of wind for the working jib we flew for the first day out and she was moving right along. Heeled down to the sailing angle I would try to maintain in a heavy breeze, there was not a hint of weather helm and she seemed perfectly balanced. I'm sure there will be more helm pressure when trying to drive to windward in strong winds but I suspect the rudder modification was a big improvement to the steering qualities. She's not a very stiff boat which is probably at the root of a lot of the weather helm complaints I've heard about these boats.. That's the price of all that weight in the hull instead of ballast. I suspect I'll be using a bit of iron jib for any long windward legs when I need to be there instead of just enjoying the sailing. I'm very happy with this boat. Someone asked me why a designer would buy one. Well, she behaves pretty close to the way I would have designed a boat to act for what we want to do with this one. The previous owner had led every line except the ones holding the fenders to an impressive array of lever cams just forward of the cockpit. I'm sure he would have ended the fender lines there as well if he could have figured out how. That's not the way I want to sail the boat since I want to teach my kids how to work on deck and don't want all that activity and lines in the cockpit with the larger numbers we'll be sailing with. Since he moved one of the winches from the mast to the cabin top, we are now short a mast winch. I don't want to spring for another winch right now and the one on the cabin top will be handy for other things. It seems silly to have a seldom used line like the roller furling/reefing jib halyard in the cockpit so here's what I'm thinking of doing for that line: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg Since roller headsail changing underway is so infrequent in fair weather coastal sailing, I think this should work well. Halyard tension will be precise and convenient without having to use a winch handle. If I do need to get the sail down, the cam cleat will let me get enough slack to undo the sheet bend. -- Roger Long |
I nearly bought an Endeavor 32 before I bought my 28' S2. I kinda like
the boat. However, I really reccomend that you keep the control lines going tot eh cockpit. There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. I cannot figure out why more boats do not lead halyards , etc to the cockpit. |
wrote in message
ups.com... There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging around. Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the cockpit as possible. -- Roger Long |
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better. I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines, of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led control lines were a good idea. As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines and put em on the cabin top when not in use. Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up your way and enjoy. My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef, instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night. |
Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older
"dangerous" boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all cockpit control and it made sense for the retired couple who sailed this boat by themselves. I'm not sure about the danger though. The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of sailing were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when you stand up to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of handholds and they are at and above your center of gravity. The shrouds are between you and the ocean and there is this big solid thing you can lean against. On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space. It's the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her butt in the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the flailing arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a lot of space in a cockpit. -- Roger Long wrote in message oups.com... Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now. You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better. I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines, of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led control lines were a good idea. As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines and put em on the cabin top when not in use. Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up your way and enjoy. My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef, instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night. |
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older "dangerous" boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all cockpit control and it made sense for the retired couple who sailed this boat by themselves. I'm not sure about the danger though. The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of sailing were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when you stand up to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of handholds and they are at and above your center of gravity. The shrouds are between you and the ocean and there is this big solid thing you can lean against. On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space. It's the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her butt in the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the flailing arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a lot of space in a cockpit. -- Roger Long wrote in message oups.com... Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now. You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better. I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines, of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led control lines were a good idea. As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines and put em on the cabin top when not in use. Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up your way and enjoy. My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef, instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night. In my experience, the dangerous time is moving from the cockpit to wherever you're going, including standing up. Most boats have few handholds, the path is slippery, on an incline, and the boom is always an issue, not to mention various lines either under tension or lazy. After you get where you're going, it's not so bad, but then you have to return. I think it makes a lot of sense to have all lines led aft. It's not a complete solution, but it's helpful. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. -- Roger Long |
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. -- Roger Long Good point! :-) Having had the mailsail clew snap in the middle of a night shift and miss my head by about a foot is, I guess, something along the lines of what you were talking about. No, I don't. That said, after one becomes proficient, I don't see the need to perpetuate the ritual of going forward if I don't have to. Also, single-handing makes this much more difficult and dangerous. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
In "Roger Long" writes:
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. Everybody can rig his boat the best way he knows about and there are always some place for discussion. But anyone can have an opinion about different alternatives to perform various tasks, I do not really understand your reasoning. I have all my controll lines, reefing lines and hallyards led after to the cocpit. Still it does not mean, that I do not go to the foredeck. I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I do not see why I should have one. Hoisting or lowering the jib has never been a problem. On the other hand I have seen many problems caused by the roller. Quite a many couples sail with a crew of two. It is to me a good system that the other can go if needed forward and still the other can pull the ropes in the cockpit. For example by dowsing the jib or the main, it is in many cases very convinient to have one handling the line from the cockpit and the other one giving a hand to help the sail to come down or letting loose a reefing line that is jammed. Even if you have a bundle of kids to perform the task, one can do it from the cockpit. Some people have the idea that if they have a furling gear they do not have to change the sail. So far I have not seen a jib or genoa that is strong enough to be used in 30 knots and light enough to be used in 6 knots of wind. Looks like most "sailors" solve this problem by motoring as soon as the wind goes below 10 knots or above 20 knots. At least my boat is sailing much better, not heeling so much and pointing higher if I use a 15 square meter jib, that is made of fairly heavy dacron and is cut very flat if the wind goes above 24 knots. But when there is less than 12 knots of wind I like to have a bit more sail, that is made from lighter material and is cut a bit fuller. So far the furlers do not change the thicknes of the cloth but they spoil the beautifull shape that the sailmaker has built in with so much effort. Then I have a real storm jib that is only 7 square meters, really strong and flat. So I end up changing the foresail once a while. Then we cet the practice to go to the foredeck. Even though it is important for the kids to learn to move around in the boat, I have this funny idea, that it is more important to teach them to sail properly, to learn about the trimming of the sails, getting the sensation and the feeling of well trimmed sails and nicely moving boat. Seems to me, that todays "sailors" with their furling gears have very little time to sail, as they always have the wrong sail upp. Luckily they feel it is so easy to roll it in, that they can start the engine and drive home, but they can always hope that tomorrow we have the optimal 10 to 16 knots of wind from a proper direction so they can sail for a while. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Bowsprit, another bad idea from the past. I have had more time on
older "dangerous" boats than I do on square riggers and the comparison is just as pertinent. I am not sure whether being a competent sailor is useful at all if it just means knowing how to use antique hardware and arcane tasks. Surely being self sufficient and knowledgeable is a good thing but at what expense? There are many old fashioned things we might spend time learning about but we dont. How many kids today could set the points on an older car? I've spent a lot of time on certain "thrilling" sports but have always been happy to give up old fashioned ways for more modern safer ones. I even learned how to use a GPS. My peculiarity about paper charts concerns aesthetics, not safety. Once again, do it your way but I assure you that this idea of being a competent seaman is about as useful as being competent with a buggywhip. |
I apologize for seeming to be critical and I hope that you and your
family really enjoy your boat. Endeavors really are nice. |
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I agree with you 100% about the roller furling gear. I had hoped to
find a boat without so I could endanger my family even more by having to do foredeck work every time the sail went up and down and not just when we needed a different size. After we bought this boat, I thought for a while of trying to do an exchange with someone but finally decided there would be plenty to do and learn in the first year. In my heart, I knew I would become so used to the convenience that it's probably here to stay. If it were just my wife and I cruising in this boat, I would leave the rig with everything led aft. -- Roger Long |
While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed "Roger Long"
felt compelled to write: wrote in message oups.com... There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging around. Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the cockpit as possible. I agree with you, Roger. I've had plenty of amusement watching folk attempting to reef from the cockpit running downwind, or worse; after bearing off in a gust, trying to round up across a steep following sea to drop the pressure out of the sails for a reef. I prefer to work the halyards and rigged reef lines (including a cunningham d/haul from the base of the mast. Even if equipped with a furler, some conditions demand headsails changed or removed, these tasks cannot be performed from the cockpit. Going forward is an integral part of sailing, it can hardly be accurately described 'endangering your children for no reason'. Ian |
Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke. Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do a lot more sailing. especially single handed. In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top. Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for him, not what seems "salty". |
You're right. Running lines to the cockpit is almost as wimpy as enclosing
the helm on a research vessel. How could anyone who does that call themselves a sailor? ;-} As a dinghy sailor, I learned on boats that had all of the lines in the cockpit. Wimpy boats, like Finns and 505's. I've never felt fully comfortable on deck in a blow, though I've learned to cope when necessary. I'm quite happy that my current boat (as did my previous) permits most evolutions without leaving the cockpit. "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. -- Roger Long |
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
... In "Roger Long" writes: Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. Everybody can rig his boat the best way he knows about and there are always some place for discussion. But anyone can have an opinion about different alternatives to perform various tasks, I do not really understand your reasoning. I have all my controll lines, reefing lines and hallyards led after to the cocpit. Still it does not mean, that I do not go to the foredeck. I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I do not see why I should have one. Hoisting or lowering the jib has never been a problem. On the other hand I have seen many problems caused by the roller. Quite a many couples sail with a crew of two. It is to me a good system that the other can go if needed forward and still the other can pull the ropes in the cockpit. For example by dowsing the jib or the main, it is in many cases very convinient to have one handling the line from the cockpit and the other one giving a hand to help the sail to come down or letting loose a reefing line that is jammed. Even if you have a bundle of kids to perform the task, one can do it from the cockpit. Some people have the idea that if they have a furling gear they do not have to change the sail. So far I have not seen a jib or genoa that is strong enough to be used in 30 knots and light enough to be used in 6 knots of wind. Looks like most "sailors" solve this problem by motoring as soon as the wind goes below 10 knots or above 20 knots. At least my boat is sailing much better, not heeling so much and pointing higher if I use a 15 square meter jib, that is made of fairly heavy dacron and is cut very flat if the wind goes above 24 knots. But when there is less than 12 knots of wind I like to have a bit more sail, that is made from lighter material and is cut a bit fuller. So far the furlers do not change the thicknes of the cloth but they spoil the beautifull shape that the sailmaker has built in with so much effort. Then I have a real storm jib that is only 7 square meters, really strong and flat. So I end up changing the foresail once a while. Then we cet the practice to go to the foredeck. Even though it is important for the kids to learn to move around in the boat, I have this funny idea, that it is more important to teach them to sail properly, to learn about the trimming of the sails, getting the sensation and the feeling of well trimmed sails and nicely moving boat. Seems to me, that todays "sailors" with their furling gears have very little time to sail, as they always have the wrong sail upp. Luckily they feel it is so easy to roll it in, that they can start the engine and drive home, but they can always hope that tomorrow we have the optimal 10 to 16 knots of wind from a proper direction so they can sail for a while. - Lauri Tarkkonen Hmmm... well, I certainly agree with much of what you say, but I've sailed on the SF bay with 30kts wind while using a jib furler with no problems. Some of the older furlers don't take kindly to being reefed but the new ones don't have that fault. That said, I've also seen them fail... mostly in lighter winds for some reason. I was on one boat on the bay when the jib halyard parted in heavy air, but I don't know if you can blame the furler for that. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
In Larry W4CSC writes:
(Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote in : I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I do not see why I should have one. Ah, the simple pleasure of furling the main into its mast slot in a heavy wind without even pointing up.....ahhh.... I have met a few fellows who shared your feelings until they met the storm that spoiled the fun. - Lauri Tarkkonen Thank you Monsieur Amel....(c; -- Larry You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in chalk. |
You make a very good and valid point.
If you assume that eventually one HAS to go forward and do some work when the deck is pitching, etc. those that are self confined to the cockpit and lose or dont even have the foredeck dexterity will be at supreme risk WHEN they have to go forward. Physical dexterity on a pitching foredeck is a learned (and important) skill. If one only sails in the 'safety' of the (enclosed) cockpit, when the time comes to 'perform up front' that loss or absence of skill will put that person and the boat at risk. In article , Roger Long wrote: Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that has warped my perspective. Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions. |
Jere Lull wrote: On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably discovered it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up right at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the sail up because of the drag. It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight slab reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A single line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the gooseneck than it was designed for. SNIP This is a bit of a religious debate but let me wade in anyway. My boat (Paceship 26) is set up for short handed sailing with all lines led to the cockpit. Works well for me when I'm out with my kids. Other setups will work better for other folks The drag issue you mention is easily mitigated by using the right hardware when the system is set up. As for the reefing line putting strains on the gooseneck that it was not designed for, I respectfully submit that a boomvang will put more strain on a gooseneck, with roughly similar vectors than a reefing line ever will. Cheers Matt |
I'm kind of surprised at the religious tone this debate has taken on.
If I were sailing as you do, with kids who are guests along for the ride, or shorthanded, I would rig the boat as you have. My current needs and purposes are different. What I find weird is the idea that one arrangement is responsible and sensible and the other negligent and foolish. If that were true, sailing itself would be negligent and foolish. -- Roger Long wrote in message ups.com... Jere Lull wrote: On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably discovered it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up right at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the sail up because of the drag. It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight slab reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A single line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the gooseneck than it was designed for. SNIP This is a bit of a religious debate but let me wade in anyway. My boat (Paceship 26) is set up for short handed sailing with all lines led to the cockpit. Works well for me when I'm out with my kids. Other setups will work better for other folks The drag issue you mention is easily mitigated by using the right hardware when the system is set up. As for the reefing line putting strains on the gooseneck that it was not designed for, I respectfully submit that a boomvang will put more strain on a gooseneck, with roughly similar vectors than a reefing line ever will. Cheers Matt |
Roger:
I also regret the tone, sorry about that. David |
Roger
Agreed. Different setups will work for different needs and preferences. Let's just all go for a sail and have a good time. Sorry if my tone was a bit off. Cheers Matt |
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Ian George wrote:
While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed felt compelled to write: Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke. You've never seen me rant. I said I prefer to reef from the mast base. I said I have seen folk who apparently never go forward struggle when trying to turn across weather to allow them to reef or drop sail. As it happens, I don't actually care whether you agree with me or not; I'm capable of accepting your differing opinion. Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do a lot more sailing. especially single handed. I wasn't arguing against furlers, but thanks for the elucidation. I was talking about changing sail or removing from a furler in a blow. I see how wrestling a frenzied, whipping headsail to the deck wouldn't be a problem for you, but moving to the mast base is a terrifying, life-threatening experience. Frankly, whilst we'd all rather be reaching in 15kn on a calm sea from the cockpit; it isn't always possible. In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top. I'm sorry that I can't follow how running the halyards back to the cockpit somehow mitigates a broach, but I did read that thread. From memory it was from someone with little experience who got caught out by a 30kt bullet. The location of the halyards would have hardly compensated for their lack of experience, in what is a reatively routine occurance. In fact from memory I think they had problems trying to round up, and getting blown off / down when stalled. Not a problem if you set up to be able to reef running downwind. How do you reef from the cockpit running downwind, yourself? Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for him, not what seems "salty". I'm not much given to bull****, that was my opinion. On my boat, I would never be able to reef downwind without going to the mast, so if I have to go to the mast to reef, I may as well terminate the halyards there. If I tried to round up, the apparent wind would likely take my rig straight down, so I have to rig to reef downwind if necessary. Perhaps you are having a bad day? I'll leave it at that. Ian Ian, if you think you are going to reef while running when you need to, you are in for a shock. You just can't do it. You must round up and come head to wind, or you will not get the main down. It will hang on the spreaders, and jam in the sail track. Then, you will broach. That's basic sailing. To broach means to get spun around until you are head to wind, like it or not. It often involves dipping the boom, possibly breaking it, and can be so violent it fills the cockpit with water, even capsizing you. Which means you sink on the spot in a keelboat. The secret to reefing safely is to reef before you need to. If you wait too long, you enter a situation where, as old salts say "The sea doesn't give a damn." If the situation continues to deteriorate, you will die. If you find yourself out there, you will only be able to get the jib down, if you don't slide off the fore deck. If it's BAD, and your furler jams, you will not be able to do anything, except hope the damn thing flogs itself to death and tatters before you drown. When the jib is gone, the main will spin you around wether you want it to or not, possibly capsizing you if you are too silly to ease the sheet as far as it can go without losing the end to the breeze, and then, if you don't take water and sink, you will find yourself head to wind, in irons, going backward, and will have about two seconds to get the main reduced, or down altogether, before you dosi-do or gybe around again and again and again, until the main is in tatters, if you are lucky enough to see it happen, you might well be watching that while being trolled for bait, on the end of your lifeline. Unless you have the crew and the skill and the strength to steer a close reach or in reverse and can keep the head to wind long enough to reef as you wish you had practiced and perfected when it was calmer, if you are alone, you could well die. Pray the boom takes you, rather than drown. I would never again sail without a certain method of getting the jib down. I can no longer trust a furler, nor do I want to sail with a baggy jib. I almost lost the mate overside in an unexpectedly rough day, when all we could hope to do do was pull the bloody genoa down on deck from the foredeck. A downhaul is now permanent, and has never failed to do the deed. All large sails foreward will be set so a knife can let it go off to sail heavan by itself. If it is so calm I can't get anywhere without the genny I don't have any more, I will either turn on Mr. Iron Oars, or start fishing. Sailing is not for wussies who don't take responsibility for their own survival, and keep an eye out for weather. Been there, done that! Seen that at a distance and was near tears myself the day we went down to the government wharf near Cobourg, Ont. 20 odd years ago to watch the waves and witnessed such a potential death dance not a mile offshore in a 10 minute squall. After a while, two pansy boys got the boat to the dock on the engine, literally crying buckets of tears and screaming at each other every inch of the way, got off the boat, called for the police and two taxis, and were going to let it drift away, cursing horribly and swearing they would never sail again. It was their first day of sailing. They were at the face slapping stage. We grabbed their dockline. We gathered that they had just taken possession of their dream palace. They sold the boat, I think a brand new Hunter 25 with a diesel, and a great big knot of tatted rags in the cockpit and on deck, on the spot to a guy on the dock with a cheque book for 5 thousand dollars. I wish I had spoken first. All your theory won't help a bit. Your tears won't even get you wet, and the sea will ignore your call for mommy. Yes, I have stupidly set sail into 50 knots of wind, and sailed off the sheltered dock, but I just didn't know how lucky I would be to get back home. That was 30 years ago, in Calandar bay, lake Ni****ing, another surprising fresh water sea. Ah, but what joy we have had, since! Terry K |
While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed Terry Spragg
felt compelled to write: Ian, if you think you are going to reef while running when you need to, you are in for a shock. You just can't do it. Well, depends what you mean by when you need to, I suppose. I sail a trimaran and when it is just past time to reef (to gust speed, rather than aggregate speed) reefing down-wind is preferable to straining the crap out of the rig chasing the higher apparent wind in rounding up. Usually I put in a first reef when gusts regularly exceed 22kn, and so in average of 14-15. Most keelboats are breaking out the spinnakers, but a big roachy main is starting to think about pushing the nose in on a multi. Nothing to stop us flying a kite after the main has been powered down, after all. This type of sailing makes it is easy to misjudge the true wind speed on a run, and there are problems with the higher apparent wind when coming about, in fact it is preferable to gybe down a track rather than round and tack a multihull through this type of scenario, because the higher boatspeed carried in to the stronger breeze can jump you suddenly to a very sedate apparent condition at 15kts reaching off in 22kts of breeze, to rounding up into a hair straightening 30+ kts of apparent wind despite halving that boat speed. You must round up and come head to wind, or you will not get the main down. It will hang on the spreaders, and jam in the sail track. Then, you will broach. That's basic sailing. To broach means to get spun around until you are head to wind, like it or not. It often involves dipping the boom, possibly breaking it, and can be so violent it fills the cockpit with water, even capsizing you. Which means you sink on the spot in a keelboat. Well, I reef well before we hit a gale, and would never try this in heavy conditions, but as long as you have the sea room to bear away quickly and have a cunningham rigged through a block, believe it or not, we can and do reef quite easily downwind. It's a two man operation though, one at the mast on the halyard, reef lines and downhaul, one to helm off and dump the sheet to provide the opportunity of a zero apparent wind interval.. The secret to reefing safely is to reef before you need to. If you wait too long, you enter a situation where, as old salts say "The sea doesn't give a damn." If the situation continues to deteriorate, you will die. Of course. And this is made worse with the higher lateral stability of a multihull, at 8.5m of beam the wind can't easily knock you down and settles for just taking the rig off. Sorry to have to agree with you, but I am an absolute advocate of reefing early. If you find yourself out there, you will only be able to get the jib down, if you don't slide off the fore deck. If it's BAD, and your furler jams, you will not be able to do anything, except hope the damn thing flogs itself to death and tatters before you drown. When the jib is gone, the main will spin you around wether you want it to or not, possibly capsizing you if you are too silly to ease the sheet as far as it can go without losing the end to the breeze, and then, if you don't take water and sink, you will find yourself head to wind, in irons, going backward, and will have about two seconds to get the main reduced, or down altogether, before you dosi-do or gybe around again and again and again, until the main is in tatters, if you are lucky enough to see it happen, you might well be watching that while being trolled for bait, on the end of your lifeline. Well, I was advocating pulling down the sail from the furler when you need to, rather than awaiting the rather dire circumstances that inspire the consequnces you outline above. We carry a storm jib and rig to a temporary cutter stay in those conditions, fortunately I've never felt the need to go out and drop that. I have, however, been caught by a furler unravelling a headsail in a breeze, with all its attendant ugliness. This is why I prefer to drop the headsail from the furler, well before the excrement and oscillator collide, and why I advocate leaving the comfort of the cockpit to do so. As for drowning and sinking, thanks for your concern, but there are some advantages to not having a half ton of lead bolted to the bottom, principal amongst which is making it difficult (though far from impossible) to sink. Yes, I've flipped, but not my own boat and whilst racing rather than cruising. Unless you have the crew and the skill and the strength to steer a close reach or in reverse and can keep the head to wind long enough to reef as you wish you had practiced and perfected when it was calmer, if you are alone, you could well die. Pray the boom takes you, rather than drown. I wasn't advocating this procedure in a hurricane, Terry. It is useful when sailing down a steepish following sea, though, and far preferable to turning across such a sea (and its consequent invitation to broach), often the acceleration down the waves will provide the zero wind opportunity to downhaul without even bearing off. This works on monohulls too, I first learned it on a Ross 930, 25 years ago in the Hauraki Gulf. Also learned how to cut away rigging quickly after doing 2 rigs in three races whilst learning a bit about apparent wind and the hazards of having a Stewart 34 gybe their boom through your windward stay. A new language was learned that day, by comparison to which Tourette's is a mild and genteel form of communication. I would never again sail without a certain method of getting the jib down. I can no longer trust a furler, nor do I want to sail with a baggy jib. I almost lost the mate overside in an unexpectedly rough day, when all we could hope to do do was pull the bloody genoa down on deck from the foredeck. A downhaul is now permanent, and has never failed to do the deed. All large sails foreward will be set so a knife can let it go off to sail heavan by itself. If it is so calm I can't get anywhere without the genny I don't have any more, I will either turn on Mr. Iron Oars, or start fishing. I agree with that, sorry. I've just finished a substantial refit on our boat, and replaced an old furler that had its own halyards and downhaul rigged in the unit, for a far more expensive and modern one which does not. I am working out a method for running a downhaul from the slide car over the weekend. I am concerned that the distance between the deck and the extrusion is not conducive to a forcing of the sail down from the top. Really, the rationale behind these units has become a 'one sail fits all' solution, not really designed to facilitate changes. I seriously considered returning to hank-ons, for three seconds. Any tips? Sailing is not for wussies who don't take responsibility for their own survival, and keep an eye out for weather. Hardly the material for a tattoo, perhaps an epitaph? Been there, done that! Seen that at a distance and was near tears myself the day we went down to the government wharf near Cobourg, Ont. 20 odd years ago to watch the waves and witnessed such a potential death dance not a mile offshore in a 10 minute squall. After a while, two pansy boys got the boat to the dock on the engine, literally crying buckets of tears and screaming at each other every inch of the way, got off the boat, called for the police and two taxis, and were going to let it drift away, cursing horribly and swearing they would never sail again. It was their first day of sailing. They were at the face slapping stage. We grabbed their dockline. We gathered that they had just taken possession of their dream palace. They sold the boat, I think a brand new Hunter 25 with a diesel, and a great big knot of tatted rags in the cockpit and on deck, on the spot to a guy on the dock with a cheque book for 5 thousand dollars. I wish I had spoken first. Well, I was fortunate to do all my terror, crying and a fair bit of incidental, unscheduled swimming in sailing dinghies from the age of eight, but have wailed nonetheless. Most notably when caught by my mother not only 'sailing out of the bay' but sailing my 11' Arrow class dinghy across the Tiri channel from Okoromai bay to Rangitoto Island and back. By some miracle I survived the trip, but barely survived my mothers wrath upon my successful return (the latter part of the trip having been observed by binoculars from shore). All your theory won't help a bit. It helps some, I'd hate to forget all of it. More beneficial is the experience to know when it might help, and when to deploy the parachute and retire, as gracefully as blind panic allows, below. Your tears won't even get you wet, and the sea will ignore your call for mommy. Refer above. I'd rather the sea take me than face mommy again, even though she is nearly 80 now. Yes, I have stupidly set sail into 50 knots of wind, and sailed off the sheltered dock, but I just didn't know how lucky I would be to get back home. That was 30 years ago, in Calandar bay, lake Ni****ing, another surprising fresh water sea. Well those cruising grounds are as foreign to me as Kawau, Okoromai, Rangitoto and Hauraki Gulf most likely are to you. Once had to cleave off a terrifying lee shore almost the length of the Coromandel peninsula, took all day to make about five miles to weather, then much later collapsing, utterly buggered into an unknown bay in a small Island by torchlight at midnight. Woke to the crunch of the boat going over at low tide (mono's, back then), simply too tired to do other than reset the pillow, and was fortunate to wake floating. That weather came out of nothing but the flattest calm, in the time it took to go below and wash the breakfast dishes I returned to look at a horizon of approaching whitecaps and 40kt winds. Lost a hat getting the pick out, and the #1 jib shredded five minutes later. Hank ons, took 40 minutes to get a new headsail up (seemed like 4 hours). Ah, but what joy we have had, since! That's the fun of it, all right. My wife still wont accept (over 20 years later) that we were never in serious danger. Ian |
Roger Long wrote:
Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? Yes. Do you think that somebody who deliberately rigs his boat to be more difficult to handle in all respects, and less safe, can be considered a competent sailor? DSK |
Do you think someone who deliberately outfits his boat with highly
tensioned lines, swinging metal tubes, and uses them to propel the boat in a way which often restricts the course it can sail, hampers emergency maneuvers such as picking up people who fall in the water, and involves an enormous amount of extra effort and exposure to the elements that can lead to operator fatigue an resultant errors in judgement and navigation could possibly be considered a competent seaman? -- Roger Long "DSK" wrote in message .. . Roger Long wrote: Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? Yes. Do you think that somebody who deliberately rigs his boat to be more difficult to handle in all respects, and less safe, can be considered a competent sailor? DSK |
Roger Long wrote:
Do you think someone who deliberately outfits his boat with highly tensioned lines, swinging metal tubes, and uses them to propel the boat in a way which often restricts the course it can sail, hampers emergency maneuvers such as picking up people who fall in the water, and involves an enormous amount of extra effort and exposure to the elements that can lead to operator fatigue an resultant errors in judgement and navigation could possibly be considered a competent seaman? Of course not. That's why the gov't is taking steps to forbid sailing ;) The key point, of course, is what sort of rigging & gear is most desired by the particular sailor in question, and perhaps doubly key is whether or not he has the skills to use his chosen rig to best effect. A lot of people clutter up their boats with stuff I wouldn't have if given it for free; OTOH some of the things I like and have found most useful can be considered awful by others. For example, recent discussion of cotter rings... I've used them for years and never known one to fail. Quite a few people posted otherwise... I'm not saying they're wrong, just that *I* will continue to use them & rely on them. Solid boom vangs, halyards & reef lines led aft, boom gallows, lazy jacks, all of it can be very utlitarian or it can be useless deck clutter. But I really don't think it's necessary to have a lot of experience clambering around on bowsprits... or aloft in square riggers... or swarming up the hoops of a gaff... to be a competent seaman. Nor does one need to know how to swing a lead line, apply tallow to deadeyes, sling a harpoon, etc etc. I do happen to think that the skills of sailing small tippy high performance centerboard dinghies are very useful, but that's just because every weekend I see 'cruising only' sailors who obviously lack some of those skills. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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