On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:02:14 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

Peter Hendra wrote in
m:

Also FWIW - I once saw a gathering of homeschoolers on Boston Common.
I was interested to note that many said that they homeschooled their
children for religious reasons whereas in New Zealand and Australia it
is generally because we believe we can better educate our kids.
Peter

I'm glad you're not a judge drawing conclusions on such lame "evidence".


Pray forgive me my dear sir.

I fail to see where I drew any conclusions from "such lame "evidence"". There
was no conclusion to be drawn nor was any suggested. If your English
comprehension is such that you have trouble with basic English useage, then I
would point out that I merely made an observation and drew no conclusion
whatsoever. With a science background and well familiar with random sampling of
populations and the maths involved I would have sampled perhaps less than 0.05
percent and thus could not. Nor did I conduct a survey with properly structured
questions. I may however have hypothesised - but neglected to do even that.
Also, I have presented no "evidence" at all as there was none excepting
statements of a few people I talked to. They were the ones who told me that most
of the several hundred people present were Christians and homeschooling for
religious reasons.

As I said, I merely made an observation.

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

wrote in
oups.com:

globalist workforce training system
wrongly called "education."


I disagree. If public education were the "globalist workforce training
system" you say, public education would actually be teaching these kids to
DO something. It's not. It teaches them to become liberal arts college
students, a dead-end way to nowhere. The "gwts" would be teaching them
plumbing, electrical repair, carpentry, how to be a cashier and handle
money. Test my theory. Ask 10 high school seniors to make change for a
$7.43 restaurant bill out of a $20 bill. GWTS students would do this very
easy...as part of the cashier apprenticeship program. High school seniors
on their way to a liberal arts education have no idea how to make change or
fix a kitchen faucet that leaks. Try that too...()c;

The liberal arts students are easy to spot at McDonald's. Just turn off
the computers and open the cash drawers to see how many can make
change....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:20:18 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:02:46 +1000, Peter Hendra
wrote:

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

You asked your own question and revealed your agenda all a few
sentences.

Actually, I have no agenda. I merely object to the bull**** that we are fed by
the media from the politicians.

When Australia invaded east Timor in a purely humanitarian gesture to "save the
poor East Timorese", we in Australia had to pay an extra "war tax". What most
people did not realise at the time was that plans had already been drawn up for
the building of a refinery at Darwin to cater for the expected oil from east
Timor of which nothing appeared in the media. One month after the troops
arrived, an agreement was signed by the new government. For years Australia had
kept its hands off the former Portugese colony. When the Indonesians invaded,
when 5 Australian journalists were killed by the military, when thousands of
people were slaughtered etc, etc. not a word of protest was heard. as soon as
there was evidence of oil, they sent in the troops. Why tax us and not the oil
companies.

Perhaps you should bear in mind that your president is defacto, also ours yet we
cannot vote in the American presidential elections. What he and his
administration does influences us in the rest of the world to a very large
degree - eg Middle East foreign policy, carbon emissions etc . I cannot
understand why, when anyone makes any comment that may be remotely misconstrued
as a criticism of US foreign policy, paranoia such as yours leaps to the fore. I
have heard Rumsfield stating on CNN that yes, the US gave Sadam the Weapons of
mass destruction and have read in US magazines that they also gave them the
chemiocal weapons to fight Iran (Sadam was once considered a good US ally), yet
we are still; fed bull****. I have met few anywhere, even in the Middle east who
wished him to stay in power. Why not admit to the lies and admit that it was all
for oil? Remember, Australia also invaded alongside the US and Britain. I am an
Australian as well as a New Zealand citizen and feel that I am permitted to
criticise my own government.

For the record, I am not anti-American, quite the contrary. I am looking forward
to sailing along your eastern coastline next year. Perhaps you should wear a hat
when out in the sun so as not to redden your neck.

In article ,
HarryKrause wrote:

There's nothing wrong with trade school training, but some seek higher
education in order to expand their minds and learn how to think at
higher levels.


While I may not actually disagree with you --I've lost track of this
thread-- I had to respond to this.

Higher education rarely leads to learning how to think at higher levels.
At best, it gives a little more information for the student to apply,
and possibly an alternate viewpoint in its application. Since few profs
can think at higher levels, they are themselves hobbled. (if they could
do it, they'd get paid far more doing it.)

And I'm not slamming you in particular. I just happen to be a computer
jock from way back who thinks SO differently that few of my co-workers
can follow my logic on a solution without a few hours' explanation.
(Those that can are truly scary individuals ;-)

My profs (as I try to get the pigskin) are hopeless, since they hardly
understand what they're presenting, much less the basic concepts or the
philosophy.

In my experience, there are a few educators out there that, along with
the material, teach those who are capable and ready how to think. I ran
into two: 5th and 11th grade. No one even close since.

Bringing it back to sailing, there are few who can teach others how to
sail. Most can merely point to the various elements of sailing and
sketch out how they're supposed to work together. It's up to the student
to do the heavy lifting. The good thing is that most sailing instructors
can at least do that adequately.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Larry W4CSC" wrote
I disagree. If public education were the "globalist workforce training
system" you say, public education would actually be teaching these kids to
DO something. It's not. It teaches them to become liberal arts college
students, a dead-end way to nowhere.

Bwahahahaha! You're absolutely right. As one "educator" quipped " We go to
elementary school to get into High school, then high school to get into
college, a bachlor degree to get a masters, a masters to get a doctorate and
a doctorate so we can teach - a closed circuit."

Vito wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote

I disagree. If public education were the "globalist workforce training
system" you say, public education would actually be teaching these kids to
DO something. It's not. It teaches them to become liberal arts college
students, a dead-end way to nowhere.


Bwahahahaha! You're absolutely right. As one "educator" quipped " We go to
elementary school to get into High school, then high school to get into
college, a bachlor degree to get a masters, a masters to get a doctorate and
a doctorate so we can teach - a closed circuit."



You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"

--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"


It is why the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are all whippin' our asses. A
kid has to WORK HARD to get into a Japanese high school. It isn't handed
him on a platter, he works for it, so he appreciates what it does for him
in their culture. We, on the other hand, treat all kids the same, to our
detriment. We are NOT all the same, neither are our children. How stupid
it is to treat them so. The really smart ones are bored to tears. The
ones in the middle who are motivated work hard. The lesser of them flunk,
over and over and noone cares. We blame them for flunking. We beat them
up. However, if our liberal arts education system were run by INTELLEGENT
people, instead of those who can't put batteries in a flashlight (it's
true, I used to teach electronics and knew many who couldn't), we would try
to recognize HOW the children are different, how their wants are in
different directions, and stop trying to shove them into the liberal arts
holes in the pegboard. A kid who is dying to fix complex automobile
engines....or (on topic) a marine diesel...has no opportunity until
released from his 12-year prison sentence to acquire his skills. Very few
schools have apprenticeship programs like the young boy taken under the
wings at Orange County Choppers on American Chopper is doing. We closed up
the vocational schools teaching children real skills because we don't want
them TOO INDEPENDENT or TOO SKILLED that our corporations can't turn them
into cheap slave labor (or labour if you like).

So, the geniuses running Asian schools in these three countries simply take
over the world, quietly, unendingly....while the Americans can't find a
skilled boat mechanic, plumber, brick layer, carpenter, electrician,
outboard motor mechanic, electronic technician, etc....the skilled labor
that keeps the world pumping....



--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

In article , Peter Hendra
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:20:18 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:02:46 +1000, Peter Hendra
wrote:

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

You asked your own question and revealed your agenda all a few
sentences.

Actually, I have no agenda. I merely object to the bull**** that we are fed by
the media from the politicians.

When Australia invaded east Timor in a purely humanitarian gesture to "save
the
poor East Timorese", we in Australia had to pay an extra "war tax". What most
people did not realise at the time was that plans had already been drawn up
for
the building of a refinery at Darwin to cater for the expected oil from east
Timor of which nothing appeared in the media. One month after the troops
arrived, an agreement was signed by the new government. For years Australia
had
kept its hands off the former Portugese colony. When the Indonesians invaded,
when 5 Australian journalists were killed by the military, when thousands of
people were slaughtered etc, etc. not a word of protest was heard. as soon as
there was evidence of oil, they sent in the troops. Why tax us and not the oil
companies.

Just because *you* and your equally ignorant associates didn't know
that there was oil there isn't proof that nobody else knew. It's been a
well known fact for decades.

The *FACT* is, we're likely to pay East Timor FAR, FAR, FAR more and
maybe have to renegotiate the seabed boundary IN THEIR FAVOUR now
they're independent. That boundary was a done deal while Indonesia had
possession/control. Australia, as a nation, was a lot better off
WITHOUT an independent, poor, problematic and likely failed state off
our NW boundary, causing aggravation with Indonesia. Nevertheless, they
did want independence and we did support them in their desires, AGAINST
OUR OWN NATIONAL INTEREST.

God, I wish people like you would learn to read something other than
Green Left Weekly. Get a brain, not everything is about oil. In this
case, it's mainly natural gas anyway, and we have vast reserves on the
NW Shelf already.

PDW

"Stephen Trapani" wrote
You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"

Not necessarily. If I have an applicant with a "B" average in math thru
trig., chemestry and physics, and a foreign language (whether from a public
or private school or a *recognized* home study program) I can pretty much
depend on his/her having some knowledge of those subjects - enough
confidence that I'd bring them for interviews. OTOH, if a application shows
no math, science or languages in high school and "satisfactory" for grades
in dumbell English, study hall and gym - or worse if it says "home schooled"
with no backup credentials whatsoever I'd prolly keep looking.

Unfortunately, as Larry says, nobody has "shop" classes any more - classes
that teach kids to be apprentice carpenters, electricians or machinists. I
don't think this is as much politically motivated as it is fear of
liability. Many (most?) 14-18 year olds are too immature to trust with a
hammer let alone run machine tools or work with electricity. Remember,
Daniel Boone and Jesse Chisohm were doing their things by age 12 - how many
modern teens would you trust to carry a gun?