On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:24:07 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

In the process of researching the differences between a Grampian 26
(fin keel, spade rudder) - 4 foot draft
http://www.grampianowners.com/G26/grampian_26.html

http://sailquest.com/market/models/gramp26.htm

and a Bayfield 25 (full keel, keel hung rudder) -3 foot draft
http://sailquest.com/market/models/bayf25.htm

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...5%2F27%2F05%29

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/2536


Ok, here goes my comparison of the Grampian (G26) and the Bayfield
(B25)

G26

Likes:
-good ballast to displacement ratio
-balanced rudder
-4ft keel - inbetween a shoal keel and deep keel
-configured for an outboard on the transom (ie no brackets necessary)
-no bow sprit
-enclosed head
-dinette
-can sleep 5
-rather roomy for a 26ft
-rear 1/4 starboard berth (the pearson P26 doesnt have one)
-full 6ft headroom
-90 degree transom
-fairly fast sailing

Dislikes:
-iron keel -prefer lead
-icebox accessed from the cockpit
-no lazzarette for the outboard
-no opening port lights

B25

Likes:
-beautiful looking - great lines
-full keel
-shoal draft
-keel hung rudder
-handles heavy wind well

Dislikes:
-bow sprit
-encapsulated keel
-usually and inboard diesel or Vire 2 stroke
-no provision for an outboard
-no 1/4 berth
-some have a huge hatch in the cockpit floor for engine access
-brightwork on top to the transom
-small inside
-the headroom is 5'10" except under the sliding hatch6ft
-interior layout vary quite a bit
-unbalance rudder
-I dont believe there are hatch boards - but saloon doors
-slow sailing not great in light airs
-doesnt point to weather well


Now the "ideal" boat would be a Nor'sea 27 with stern cockpit, but way
out of the price range.

Some may disagree but my preferences are for an outboard rather than
an inboard.
A porti-potty rather than a holding tank type setup.

I doubt the builder of the G26 or the B25 built them to be considered
"bluewater boats" although few have used them as such.

With certain "mods" like Dave and Aja on ther 25ft Catalina did for
their circumnavagation these could be contenders.

Other models similar to the G26 is the Pearson 26, Oday 27

Other models similar to the B25 is the Ariel 26, Bristol 27/26

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:17:54 GMT, (Mic) wrote:


With certain "mods" like Dave and Aja on ther 25ft Catalina did for
their circumnavagation these could be contenders.

Link:

http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin133.html

" Modifying Production Boats
By Dave and Jaja

To order your copy of Dave and Jaja's new book, Into the Light: A
Family's Epic Journey, click here.

For their latest book reviews, click here.

To view a gallery of images showing DRIVER, the Martins, and their
adventures, click here.

A SetSail visitor recently asked: What modifications did Dave make to
his Cal-25 DIRECTION to prepare it for a circumnavigation? What
thought processes were involved in his decisions? In a general sense,
what should a prudent mariner look for when modifying a stock
production boat for offshore sailing?

Thought process. I chose to modify my Cal-25, DIRECTION, because it
was the only boat I could afford."

(Mic) wrote:
With certain "mods" like Dave and Aja on ther 25ft Catalina did for
their circumnavagation these could be contenders.


And if your uncle had wheels, he'd be a tea cart.



A SetSail visitor recently asked: What modifications did Dave make to
his Cal-25 DIRECTION to prepare it for a circumnavigation? What
thought processes were involved in his decisions? In a general sense,
what should a prudent mariner look for when modifying a stock
production boat for offshore sailing?

Thought process. I chose to modify my Cal-25, DIRECTION, because it
was the only boat I could afford."

Seems to me he's changed his story over the years, when he first started
getting published he admitted it was a foolish thing to do, that he'd
been headstrong instead of smart, and the he wouldn't do the same thing
over. It would have been better to put the same amount of work into
making more money to buy a better boat, but that was the boat he had and
he was emotionally attached to it.

It's interesting to read his description of the boat after almost two
years of hard sailing... clapped-out, severe oilcanning, very little
structural integrity in the fiberglass laminate of the hull itself. He
said the keel swung back & forth like the clapper of the bell.

Sounds like now that he's making money off it, he's talking a different
line. A little surprising, I've met Dave Martin when they lived in
Oriental NC and he struck me as quite a decnt type fellow.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:15:30 -0400, DSK wrote:

(Mic) wrote:
With certain "mods" like Dave and Aja on ther 25ft Catalina did for
their circumnavagation these could be contenders.


And if your uncle had wheels, he'd be a tea cart.



A SetSail visitor recently asked: What modifications did Dave make to
his Cal-25 DIRECTION to prepare it for a circumnavigation? What
thought processes were involved in his decisions? In a general sense,
what should a prudent mariner look for when modifying a stock
production boat for offshore sailing?

Thought process. I chose to modify my Cal-25, DIRECTION, because it
was the only boat I could afford."

Seems to me he's changed his story over the years, when he first started
getting published he admitted it was a foolish thing to do, that he'd
been headstrong instead of smart, and the he wouldn't do the same thing
over. It would have been better to put the same amount of work into
making more money to buy a better boat, but that was the boat he had and
he was emotionally attached to it.

It's interesting to read his description of the boat after almost two
years of hard sailing... clapped-out, severe oilcanning, very little
structural integrity in the fiberglass laminate of the hull itself. He
said the keel swung back & forth like the clapper of the bell.

Was that before of after the "mods"? I cant recall which magazine,
but earlier this year I was at a nautical book store and saw an
article regarding the mods that were made with a photo spread.
Amazing how after so many years it is a feature regarding boat
modifications.

Regardless I think that the suggestions and the mods he did make are
reasonable and thought out. What mods you u suggest?

Here is another like to a production boat journey.

http://members.tripod.com/~lbucko/mship.htm

"In 3,000 miles from Santa Barbara to Costa Rica you can get to know a
boat, and by that time you either hate it, tolerate it, or love it.
Fifteen years ago, I made the same trip from California to Costa Rica
in a 22' MacGregor-Venture and described it as "Sea-friendly".

http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/aegresum.htm

"12,000 miles in a 21ft Shetland boat?

A voyage from the North of Scotland (above) to Tahiti (right) and
beyond.....

Pre GPS, email and Weatherfax, and with no engine or electrics, a
standing lug rig and flush deck giving maybe 4ft of headroom below,
this was truly minimalist sailing. But back in 1973 for my then
partner Julie (20) and myself (23), The Aegre was a ticket to a most
amazing adventure.

This is a brief account of the origins of the idea, the preparation
and the voyages. Voyages which took us from the far north of Scotland
to Madeira and the Canary Islands then on across the Atlantic to the
West Indies, across the Caribbean, through the Panama Canal and half
way across the Pacific. "

http://www.btinternet.com/%7Edov/ngp/Atlantic99.html

"Since 1973 when he crossed the Atlantic in a homemade plywood sloop,
Tom has made a total of eight voyages in an assortment of tiny craft
increasing in knowledge and experience with every journey, his last
venture in 1993, saw him breaking the world record for crossing any
ocean in the smallest boat. Vera Hugh I, Pride of Merseyside measured
5 feet 4 and 1/2 inches, seven inches smaller than himself."

Sounds like now that he's making money off it, he's talking a different
line. A little surprising, I've met Dave Martin when they lived in
Oriental NC and he struck me as quite a decnt type fellow.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Mic wrote:
Was that before of after the "mods"?

What, the keel swinging back & forth? Before. That was why he built in a
set of laminated floor members.

.. I cant recall which magazine,
but earlier this year I was at a nautical book store and saw an
article regarding the mods that were made with a photo spread.
Amazing how after so many years it is a feature regarding boat
modifications.

Regardless I think that the suggestions and the mods he did make are
reasonable and thought out. What mods you u suggest?

I think his modifications were well thought out and very professionally
(better than most "professionals" probably) executed.

The things he did that I remember are rebuilding the cockpit floor...
more critical for strength than many people realize, and i can't recall
his drain configuration but that's also important. I'm sure he made the
drains bigger & simpler & more reliable. The hatch hood is also a good
idea on a small boat intended for long passages... I don't recall if he
built it of foam core, but that could be easily done and it would add
security and increase LPOS. Building in new structure... if the boat
needs more than some re-coring and maybe some re-tabbing, I'd think
seriously about looking for a different boat. That's a LOT of work, it
raises lots of questions, usually the deeper you dig the worse it gets.



Here is another like to a production boat journey.

http://members.tripod.com/~lbucko/mship.htm

"In 3,000 miles from Santa Barbara to Costa Rica you can get to know a
boat, and by that time you either hate it, tolerate it, or love it.
Fifteen years ago, I made the same trip from California to Costa Rica
in a 22' MacGregor-Venture and described it as "Sea-friendly".

OOOW my eyeballs... I find this page extremely hard to read. Sorry. The
guys sounds like he had a fun trip though, and this should be an
eye-opener to people insisting you need a crab-crusher... you not only
don't need one, you can make the trip in the dreaded MAC-26!!

BTW we've had friends with these boats, they sail pretty well... factory
QA is all over the map... but they can be pretty nice trailerable cruisers.


http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/aegresum.htm

"12,000 miles in a 21ft Shetland boat?

A voyage from the North of Scotland (above) to Tahiti (right) and
beyond.....


Looks interesting, I might just buy this book. I like the boat although
I wonder if he didn't think of external ballast. The positive flotation
clearly saved their bacon & this has been discussed on this NG in the
past... most people diss the idea but clearly it has it's merits!

Thanks for this link.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Mic" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:15:30 -0400, DSK wrote:

(Mic) wrote:
With certain "mods" like Dave and Aja on ther 25ft Catalina did for
their circumnavagation these could be contenders.


And if your uncle had wheels, he'd be a tea cart.



A SetSail visitor recently asked: What modifications did Dave make to
his Cal-25 DIRECTION to prepare it for a circumnavigation? What
thought processes were involved in his decisions? In a general sense,
what should a prudent mariner look for when modifying a stock
production boat for offshore sailing?

Thought process. I chose to modify my Cal-25, DIRECTION, because it
was the only boat I could afford."

Seems to me he's changed his story over the years, when he first started
getting published he admitted it was a foolish thing to do, that he'd
been headstrong instead of smart, and the he wouldn't do the same thing
over. It would have been better to put the same amount of work into
making more money to buy a better boat, but that was the boat he had and
he was emotionally attached to it.

It's interesting to read his description of the boat after almost two
years of hard sailing... clapped-out, severe oilcanning, very little
structural integrity in the fiberglass laminate of the hull itself. He
said the keel swung back & forth like the clapper of the bell.

Was that before of after the "mods"? I cant recall which magazine,
but earlier this year I was at a nautical book store and saw an
article regarding the mods that were made with a photo spread.
Amazing how after so many years it is a feature regarding boat
modifications.

Regardless I think that the suggestions and the mods he did make are
reasonable and thought out. What mods you u suggest?

Here is another like to a production boat journey.

http://members.tripod.com/~lbucko/mship.htm

"In 3,000 miles from Santa Barbara to Costa Rica you can get to know a
boat, and by that time you either hate it, tolerate it, or love it.
Fifteen years ago, I made the same trip from California to Costa Rica
in a 22' MacGregor-Venture and described it as "Sea-friendly".

http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/aegresum.htm

"12,000 miles in a 21ft Shetland boat?

A voyage from the North of Scotland (above) to Tahiti (right) and
beyond.....

Pre GPS, email and Weatherfax, and with no engine or electrics, a
standing lug rig and flush deck giving maybe 4ft of headroom below,
this was truly minimalist sailing. But back in 1973 for my then
partner Julie (20) and myself (23), The Aegre was a ticket to a most
amazing adventure.

This is a brief account of the origins of the idea, the preparation
and the voyages. Voyages which took us from the far north of Scotland
to Madeira and the Canary Islands then on across the Atlantic to the
West Indies, across the Caribbean, through the Panama Canal and half
way across the Pacific. "

http://www.btinternet.com/%7Edov/ngp/Atlantic99.html

"Since 1973 when he crossed the Atlantic in a homemade plywood sloop,
Tom has made a total of eight voyages in an assortment of tiny craft
increasing in knowledge and experience with every journey, his last
venture in 1993, saw him breaking the world record for crossing any
ocean in the smallest boat. Vera Hugh I, Pride of Merseyside measured
5 feet 4 and 1/2 inches, seven inches smaller than himself."

Sounds like now that he's making money off it, he's talking a different
line. A little surprising, I've met Dave Martin when they lived in
Oriental NC and he struck me as quite a decnt type fellow.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I done a little blue water sailing, have figured out that if you can stay
reasonably well fed and dry, it can be a pleasant experience, even when
conditions aren't. Don't see how you can manage either of these goals on
boats of this size. Just my 2 cents.

John Cairns