I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child sailing
is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find nauseating
and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our
ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took
them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where
the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our
ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very
hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want a
real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on
the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very
few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their
families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it
has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not
advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by macho
BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk
taking.
Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the
almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some strange
outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and
calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock looking
at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me
thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling about
sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions.
Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but I
still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I
dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils
Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and
never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On
three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a mountain
in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408'
drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do the
pit.
Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and some
seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they
should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have
thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time,
but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I
have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than
they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down, he
fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip, he
asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go
and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude
toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader was
a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world famous
by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to
be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life.
A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken
Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West End
for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one of
the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read and
I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such
nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since.
One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your bravery
to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your
decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your
assessment of the risk vs reward.
My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain
that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids,
especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring we
have done together and I tell them that someday they will be exploring
caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and
asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course I
say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up." I
tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her
urge to explore.
Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes
get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational
reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to
evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys
who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made
by Testosterone).
My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12' hoem
built sailboats).

dbohara,
The number one rule in scuba diving (besides rushing for the surface)is
you can cancel or abort the dive at any time, no questions asked. Anyone
who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their decision to
abort isn't a friend.
Paul


wrote:
I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child sailing
is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find nauseating
and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our
ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took
them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where
the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our
ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very
hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want a
real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on
the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very
few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their
families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it
has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not
advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by macho
BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk
taking.
Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the
almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some strange
outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and
calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock looking
at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me
thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling about
sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions.
Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but I
still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I
dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils
Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and
never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On
three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a mountain
in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408'
drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do the
pit.
Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and some
seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they
should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have
thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time,
but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I
have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than
they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down, he
fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip, he
asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go
and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude
toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader was
a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world famous
by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to
be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life.
A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken
Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West End
for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one of
the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read and
I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such
nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since.
One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your bravery
to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your
decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your
assessment of the risk vs reward.
My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain
that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids,
especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring we
have done together and I tell them that someday they will be exploring
caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and
asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course I
say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up." I
tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her
urge to explore.
Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes
get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational
reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to
evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys
who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made
by Testosterone).
My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12' hoem
built sailboats).

Paul Schilter wrote:
dbohara,
The number one rule in scuba diving (besides rushing for the
surface)is you can cancel or abort the dive at any time, no questions
asked. Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their
decision to abort isn't a friend.
Paul


Reminds me of the time a 'good buddy' of mine loaned me equipment and
took me out into a cove off the North Atlantic ocean. We went down and I
couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was
probably panicking and trying too hard. Seemed to make sense, so I tried
it again..once more couldn't breath and noticed the two other guys had
disappeared. I popped to the surface, inflated my vest and snorkeled to
shore. He came back a while later, checked my tank and then admitted he
had forgotten to fill it. I haven't tried it since.

Don White wrote:
went down and I
couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was

probably panicking and trying too hard.

When this happened to me, my partner laffed and said, "First, you have
to breathe OUT!" It was the first time I had donned SCUBA gear and, of
course, I filled my lungs before going under. Paul

Don,
Yeah you always want to keep on eye on your tank's pressure gage. Also
breath off the regulator and watch the gage, it shouldn't drop any or
your tank valve isn't all the way open. Since my wife is my dive buddy I
try not to get us into any tight situations.
Paul


Don White wrote:
Paul Schilter wrote:

dbohara,
The number one rule in scuba diving (besides rushing for the
surface)is you can cancel or abort the dive at any time, no questions
asked. Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their
decision to abort isn't a friend.
Paul


Reminds me of the time a 'good buddy' of mine loaned me equipment and
took me out into a cove off the North Atlantic ocean. We went down and I
couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was
probably panicking and trying too hard. Seemed to make sense, so I tried
it again..once more couldn't breath and noticed the two other guys had
disappeared. I popped to the surface, inflated my vest and snorkeled to
shore. He came back a while later, checked my tank and then admitted he
had forgotten to fill it. I haven't tried it since.

Paul wrote:
Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their
decision to abort isn't a friend.
Paul

Ding! We have a winner folks. _Never_ relinquish your right to
exercise your own _good_ judgment.

Don:

Are you sure this is a "friend". He didnt maybe take out an insurance
policy on you did he. Maybe sometime in the distant past you ****ed
him off?

Cave diving is one of the few things I will not try. It is one of the
few sports where almost ANY mistake is fatal. I am glad some people do
it but I consider it to be an elaborate form of suicide.

dbohar,
I considered taking a course but haven't gotten around to it. Your
buoyancy control has to be perfect. Just couldn't see what would be that
interesting in a cave. Plus you have to reconfigure to a long hose. I
might give rebreathers a go at some point but for now open circuit is fine.
Paul


wrote:
Cave diving is one of the few things I will not try. It is one of the
few sports where almost ANY mistake is fatal. I am glad some people do
it but I consider it to be an elaborate form of suicide.

One of my friends died due to a faulty Buoyancy compensator. He was
250' down in Little Dismal Sink and had managed to connect
Little_dismal to Emerald forming the worlds longest mapped underwater
cave. They were breathing some weird mix of air. To exit the cave,
they must take off their tanks and push them through a constriction
while still breathing through the hose attached. Suddenly, There was a
cloud of silt and when it cleared they saw his light waaaaaaay above
them. They were in a dome that rose over 100' with the constriction at
the bottom. They slowly made their way up to him, pausing for the
decrease in pressure. He was alive and still breathing and was looking
around they say. However, they could not get him to go through the
constriction. They even tried tying his hose to him and somehow
pulling the tank through but nothing worked. They kept trying till
they were nearly out of air and had to leave him. When they got back
down with more air, he was dead of course. An autopsy later showed
that the rapid ascent had given him a brain embolism so he was sort of
brain dead when they were trying to get him through the constriction.
I probably have some of these details wrong because I am not a diver
but it was basically a bad BC. These guys were operating on the edge
of dive technology. A good friend and good caver lost.
Later, some of these same people pioneered the use of rebreathers for
this same cave system and they were later used in Wakulla and in
Mexico.
I think the obsession of cave diving is the same for any part of the
unknown. Finding some place no other human has ever seen gives you
chills and makes you feel closer to the almighty than anything I can
think of. Until a century ago, it was still possible to do this on
earths surface so exploration by sail drove the great age of
exploration. Today, there are very few unexplored places left on
earths surface so people who are obsessed with exploration have to some
extremes, like caves or the ocean depths or even space.
Dont get me started or I'll rant all day about this.