I've approach whitewater canoeing/kayak with the same attitude and
experience. I've lost boating buddies because I've decided at the putin
that I'm not comfortable with a particular run on a particular day, but I've
considered those people not worth my time; if they won't accept my judgment
about my own abilities and present condition then I'm better off without
them.

Whitewater demands that a paddler is on top of his game, with serious
consequences if he's not. Most experienced paddlers understand this and
give each other carte blanche to decide for themselves whether they are
ready for a run. As soon as a suggestion, "Let's run the Gauley today."
becomes an urge or taunt, "C'mon, don't be so chicken. You know you can do
this.", experienced paddlers spot a jerk and tend to leave them behind. The
first thing taught to new boaters is that they alone are ultimately
responsible for the decision to make a run or not.

I would expect the same respect from other sailors, and I will put those
people who try to push me into situations I'm not ready for into the same
category that pushy salesmen populate; those concerned with their own needs
at the expense of others..

Padeen

wrote:
I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child
sailing
is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find
nauseating
and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our
ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took
them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where
the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our
ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very
hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want
a
real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on
the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very
few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their
families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it
has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not
advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by
macho
BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk
taking.
Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the
almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some
strange
outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and
calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock
looking
at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me
thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling
about
sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions.
Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but
I
still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I
dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils
Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and
never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On
three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a
mountain
in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408'
drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do
the
pit.
Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and
some
seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they
should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have
thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time,
but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I
have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than
they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down,
he
fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip,
he
asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go
and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude
toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader
was
a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world
famous
by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to
be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life.
A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken
Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West
End
for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one
of
the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read
and
I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such
nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since.
One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your
bravery
to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your
decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your
assessment of the risk vs reward.
My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain
that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids,
especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring
we
have done together and I tell them that someday they will be
exploring
caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and
asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course
I
say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up."
I
tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her
urge to explore.
Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes
get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational
reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to
evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys
who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made
by Testosterone).
My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12'
hoem
built sailboats).

I agree completly!
Have you noticed the people that often try to stop others doing
anything "risky" have no or little experience themselves.
and often these are the people who have all the tickets and
certificates but not the hand son experience.

"To young men contemplating a voyage I would say go. The tales of rough
usage are for the most part exaggerations, as also are the stories of
sea danger. I had a fair schooling in the so-called "hard ships" on
the hard Western Ocean, and in the years there I do not remember
having once been "called out of my name." Such recollections have
endeared the sea to me. I owe it further to the officers of all the
ships I ever sailed in as boy and man to say that not one ever lifted
so much as a finger to me. I did not live among angels, but among men
who could be roused. My wish was, though, to please the officers of my
ship wherever I was, and so I got on. Dangers there are, to be sure,
on the sea as well as on the land, but the intelligence and skill God
gives to man reduce these to a minimum. And here comes in again the
skilfully modeled ship worthy to sail the seas."

Joshua Slocum - sailing alone around the world

One of my friends died due to a faulty Buoyancy compensator. He was
250' down in Little Dismal Sink and had managed to connect
Little_dismal to Emerald forming the worlds longest mapped underwater
cave. They were breathing some weird mix of air. To exit the cave,
they must take off their tanks and push them through a constriction
while still breathing through the hose attached. Suddenly, There was a
cloud of silt and when it cleared they saw his light waaaaaaay above
them. They were in a dome that rose over 100' with the constriction at
the bottom. They slowly made their way up to him, pausing for the
decrease in pressure. He was alive and still breathing and was looking
around they say. However, they could not get him to go through the
constriction. They even tried tying his hose to him and somehow
pulling the tank through but nothing worked. They kept trying till
they were nearly out of air and had to leave him. When they got back
down with more air, he was dead of course. An autopsy later showed
that the rapid ascent had given him a brain embolism so he was sort of
brain dead when they were trying to get him through the constriction.
I probably have some of these details wrong because I am not a diver
but it was basically a bad BC. These guys were operating on the edge
of dive technology. A good friend and good caver lost.
Later, some of these same people pioneered the use of rebreathers for
this same cave system and they were later used in Wakulla and in
Mexico.
I think the obsession of cave diving is the same for any part of the
unknown. Finding some place no other human has ever seen gives you
chills and makes you feel closer to the almighty than anything I can
think of. Until a century ago, it was still possible to do this on
earths surface so exploration by sail drove the great age of
exploration. Today, there are very few unexplored places left on
earths surface so people who are obsessed with exploration have to some
extremes, like caves or the ocean depths or even space.
Dont get me started or I'll rant all day about this.

dbohara,
The weird air mix is Tri-mix. The air we breath is 21% oxygen and 79%
nitrogen with a few trace elements. What these guys were doing is tech
diving, what I do is recreational diving. We're limited to 130'. After
150' or so it's a good idea to go with Tri-mix. Tri-mix is a blend of
oxygen, helium and nitrogen. The oxygen is lowered to something like 16%
and part of the nitrogen is replaced with helium, can't remember the
percentages. After 130' the chances for nitrogen narcosis go up as the
depth increases. So less nitrogen is beneficial. After about 160' or so
oxygen starts to become toxic, hence the less oxygen content. So the
tech diver carries along a third air cylinder with normal air to get
down to the depth where he'll switch to his tri-mix gas to descend
further. On the way up, he might take up to two hours to stop at various
depths to decompress. He better not forget to change to the normal air
tank as he comes up. He has to plan to have enough gas to fulfill his
decompression obligation. Failing to do this or coming up too quick can
get him bent or death. I've read a bit about it, but no thanks it's not
my cup of tea. :-)
Paul


wrote:
One of my friends died due to a faulty Buoyancy compensator. He was
250' down in Little Dismal Sink and had managed to connect
Little_dismal to Emerald forming the worlds longest mapped underwater
cave. They were breathing some weird mix of air. To exit the cave,
they must take off their tanks and push them through a constriction
while still breathing through the hose attached. Suddenly, There was a
cloud of silt and when it cleared they saw his light waaaaaaay above
them. They were in a dome that rose over 100' with the constriction at
the bottom. They slowly made their way up to him, pausing for the
decrease in pressure. He was alive and still breathing and was looking
around they say. However, they could not get him to go through the
constriction. They even tried tying his hose to him and somehow
pulling the tank through but nothing worked. They kept trying till
they were nearly out of air and had to leave him. When they got back
down with more air, he was dead of course. An autopsy later showed
that the rapid ascent had given him a brain embolism so he was sort of
brain dead when they were trying to get him through the constriction.
I probably have some of these details wrong because I am not a diver
but it was basically a bad BC. These guys were operating on the edge
of dive technology. A good friend and good caver lost.
Later, some of these same people pioneered the use of rebreathers for
this same cave system and they were later used in Wakulla and in
Mexico.
I think the obsession of cave diving is the same for any part of the
unknown. Finding some place no other human has ever seen gives you
chills and makes you feel closer to the almighty than anything I can
think of. Until a century ago, it was still possible to do this on
earths surface so exploration by sail drove the great age of
exploration. Today, there are very few unexplored places left on
earths surface so people who are obsessed with exploration have to some
extremes, like caves or the ocean depths or even space.
Dont get me started or I'll rant all day about this.

Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his decision
spend his life diving?



Padeen

If possible, I would think he would be happy he spent so much time
diving. He got got into dry caving because of a messy divorce and he
wanted to get his mind off of it. When he learned about cave mapping,
he returned to his former interest in scuba and applied this mapping
skill to cave diving. When he made the first good map of spring called
McBride Slough, it was a first in underwater cave mapping in being so
accurate and detailed and got a lot of attention.
Although his death was nearly 20 years ago, I can still see his
enthusiasm and the far-away look in his eyes as he described swimming
through vast hallways with drowned columnar formations stretching off
into the distance out of reach of his light(You have to realize that
these caves where formed when the water level was a couple hundred feet
lower, the Gulf of Mexico shoreline was 50 miles furhter out 10,000 yrs
ago). Being a dry caver, I could picture this but with the added
experience of floating through it instead of climbing through it.
The exploration-discovery obsession really had hold of him and I can
see why. It is a nearly religious experience that makes people take
risks that may seem extreme but it is not for macho reasons.

Padeen wrote:
Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his
decision
spend his life diving?



Padeen

I can understand that far-away look. I've often pushed my boundaries for
what I consider something worth dying for, and have lived with the premise
that any death doing something I love, active and engaged, would be
worthwhile, compared to dying in an auto accident, or a cancer ward.
Thanks for your description of your friend's passion.
Padeen


wrote in message
oups.com...
If possible, I would think he would be happy he spent so much time
diving. He got got into dry caving because of a messy divorce and he
wanted to get his mind off of it. When he learned about cave mapping,
he returned to his former interest in scuba and applied this mapping
skill to cave diving. When he made the first good map of spring called
McBride Slough, it was a first in underwater cave mapping in being so
accurate and detailed and got a lot of attention.
Although his death was nearly 20 years ago, I can still see his
enthusiasm and the far-away look in his eyes as he described swimming
through vast hallways with drowned columnar formations stretching off
into the distance out of reach of his light(You have to realize that
these caves where formed when the water level was a couple hundred feet
lower, the Gulf of Mexico shoreline was 50 miles furhter out 10,000 yrs
ago). Being a dry caver, I could picture this but with the added
experience of floating through it instead of climbing through it.
The exploration-discovery obsession really had hold of him and I can
see why. It is a nearly religious experience that makes people take
risks that may seem extreme but it is not for macho reasons.

Padeen wrote:
Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his
decision
spend his life diving?



Padeen

As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL. You can sit in "chicken harbour"
because you aren't in a hurry, have been in storms and bad weather
before, and would like a relaxing trip. If you are waiting because you
are unsure of being able to handle anything but the calmest weather
you are accident waiting to happen. Forecasts are not perfect and you
WILL be caught out sooner or later. Iknew a guy who passed on going
to the Bahamas in a large trawler because they didn't get a weather
window in 4 MONTHS! I can't imagine there was weather THAT bad for
that long in Florida.

(joe_323) wrote:

As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL. You can sit in "chicken harbour"
because you aren't in a hurry, have been in storms and bad weather
before, and would like a relaxing trip. If you are waiting because you
are unsure of being able to handle anything but the calmest weather
you are accident waiting to happen. Forecasts are not perfect and you
WILL be caught out sooner or later. Iknew a guy who passed on going
to the Bahamas in a large trawler because they didn't get a weather
window in 4 MONTHS! I can't imagine there was weather THAT bad for
that long in Florida.

Well a trawler is quite a bit different from a sailboat. Not much
faster, and quite a bit more uncomfortable in a seaway. I'm assuming
that he was there in the winter, and I have seen quite a bit of bad
weather pretty close together with really small weather windows. It
also might be that when a weather windows did arrive, the boat wasn't
provisioned (it's hard to stay 'ready' for 4 months) or they were
having some problem with the dinghy motor or any one of a number of
other things..

Of course he may really be chicken-little. In that case, it's just as
well that he didn't go. Wouldn't it be worse for him to go if he's
not capable of handling it just because of the scorn of people like
you?

If you've never done it before, it can be scary. That's why people
try to band into groups - as if that would really help much.

I have to say that the first time we went down the ICW (and we did not
travel with anyone) and over to the Bahamas, I was always a little
nauseated especially in the morning, but it wasn't seasickness - it
was tension. And after Bob's heart attack, getting back on the boat
and bringing it back home was also difficult for me.


grandma Rosalie

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:12:59 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:


Well a trawler is quite a bit different from a sailboat. Not much
faster, and quite a bit more uncomfortable in a seaway. I'm assuming
that he was there in the winter, and I have seen quite a bit of bad
weather pretty close together with really small weather windows. It
also might be that when a weather windows did arrive, the boat wasn't
provisioned (it's hard to stay 'ready' for 4 months) or they were
having some problem with the dinghy motor or any one of a number of
other things..

Of course he may really be chicken-little. In that case, it's just as
well that he didn't go. Wouldn't it be worse for him to go if he's
not capable of handling it just because of the scorn of people like
you?

If you've never done it before, it can be scary. That's why people
try to band into groups - as if that would really help much.

I have to say that the first time we went down the ICW (and we did not
travel with anyone) and over to the Bahamas, I was always a little
nauseated especially in the morning, but it wasn't seasickness - it
was tension. And after Bob's heart attack, getting back on the boat
and bringing it back home was also difficult for me.


grandma Rosalie

The ICW makes me nervous too! Between running aground in the center of
the channel, tides, currents, obstructions, confusing marks, bridge
schedules, nutty powerboats, and commercial shipping there are FAR
more things to worry about than in the open ocean.
I felt sorry for the guy with the trawler. He spent a lot of money on
a very seaworthy boat and really wanted to see the Bahamas. I think if
he had a hired a skipper for the crossing he would have discovered
"Hey, this isn't THAT bad - I could do this too with some experience
gained"