I've had the same feelings flying. There has been two or three
times when I intended to take a Cessna 152 for a couple of hours
of fun, but for some reason, I just didn't feel "competent" that
day, and stayed on the ground. I listen to my gut...not macho BS
of those around me. If it all goes pear shaped, I suffer the penalty,
not them.
Norm B


On 10 Apr 2005 08:03:41 -0700, wrote:

I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child sailing
is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find nauseating
and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our
ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took
them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where
the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our
ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very
hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want a
real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on
the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very
few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their
families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it
has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not
advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by macho
BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk
taking.
Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the
almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some strange
outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and
calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock looking
at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me
thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling about
sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions.
Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but I
still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I
dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils
Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and
never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On
three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a mountain
in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408'
drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do the
pit.
Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and some
seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they
should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have
thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time,
but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I
have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than
they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down, he
fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip, he
asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go
and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude
toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader was
a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world famous
by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to
be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life.
A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken
Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West End
for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one of
the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read and
I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such
nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since.
One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your bravery
to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your
decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your
assessment of the risk vs reward.
My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain
that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids,
especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring we
have done together and I tell them that someday they will be exploring
caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and
asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course I
say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up." I
tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her
urge to explore.
Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes
get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational
reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to
evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys
who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made
by Testosterone).
My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12' hoem
built sailboats).

I've approach whitewater canoeing/kayak with the same attitude and
experience. I've lost boating buddies because I've decided at the putin
that I'm not comfortable with a particular run on a particular day, but I've
considered those people not worth my time; if they won't accept my judgment
about my own abilities and present condition then I'm better off without
them.

Whitewater demands that a paddler is on top of his game, with serious
consequences if he's not. Most experienced paddlers understand this and
give each other carte blanche to decide for themselves whether they are
ready for a run. As soon as a suggestion, "Let's run the Gauley today."
becomes an urge or taunt, "C'mon, don't be so chicken. You know you can do
this.", experienced paddlers spot a jerk and tend to leave them behind. The
first thing taught to new boaters is that they alone are ultimately
responsible for the decision to make a run or not.

I would expect the same respect from other sailors, and I will put those
people who try to push me into situations I'm not ready for into the same
category that pushy salesmen populate; those concerned with their own needs
at the expense of others..

Padeen

wrote:
I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child
sailing
is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find
nauseating
and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our
ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took
them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where
the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our
ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very
hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want
a
real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on
the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very
few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their
families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it
has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not
advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by
macho
BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk
taking.
Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the
almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some
strange
outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and
calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock
looking
at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me
thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling
about
sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions.
Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but
I
still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I
dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils
Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and
never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On
three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a
mountain
in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408'
drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do
the
pit.
Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and
some
seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they
should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have
thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time,
but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I
have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than
they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down,
he
fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip,
he
asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go
and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude
toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader
was
a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world
famous
by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to
be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life.
A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken
Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West
End
for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one
of
the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read
and
I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such
nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since.
One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your
bravery
to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your
decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your
assessment of the risk vs reward.
My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain
that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids,
especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring
we
have done together and I tell them that someday they will be
exploring
caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and
asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course
I
say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up."
I
tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her
urge to explore.
Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes
get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational
reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to
evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys
who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made
by Testosterone).
My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12'
hoem
built sailboats).

I agree completly!
Have you noticed the people that often try to stop others doing
anything "risky" have no or little experience themselves.
and often these are the people who have all the tickets and
certificates but not the hand son experience.

"To young men contemplating a voyage I would say go. The tales of rough
usage are for the most part exaggerations, as also are the stories of
sea danger. I had a fair schooling in the so-called "hard ships" on
the hard Western Ocean, and in the years there I do not remember
having once been "called out of my name." Such recollections have
endeared the sea to me. I owe it further to the officers of all the
ships I ever sailed in as boy and man to say that not one ever lifted
so much as a finger to me. I did not live among angels, but among men
who could be roused. My wish was, though, to please the officers of my
ship wherever I was, and so I got on. Dangers there are, to be sure,
on the sea as well as on the land, but the intelligence and skill God
gives to man reduce these to a minimum. And here comes in again the
skilfully modeled ship worthy to sail the seas."

Joshua Slocum - sailing alone around the world

As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL. You can sit in "chicken harbour"
because you aren't in a hurry, have been in storms and bad weather
before, and would like a relaxing trip. If you are waiting because you
are unsure of being able to handle anything but the calmest weather
you are accident waiting to happen. Forecasts are not perfect and you
WILL be caught out sooner or later. Iknew a guy who passed on going
to the Bahamas in a large trawler because they didn't get a weather
window in 4 MONTHS! I can't imagine there was weather THAT bad for
that long in Florida.

(joe_323) wrote:

As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL. You can sit in "chicken harbour"
because you aren't in a hurry, have been in storms and bad weather
before, and would like a relaxing trip. If you are waiting because you
are unsure of being able to handle anything but the calmest weather
you are accident waiting to happen. Forecasts are not perfect and you
WILL be caught out sooner or later. Iknew a guy who passed on going
to the Bahamas in a large trawler because they didn't get a weather
window in 4 MONTHS! I can't imagine there was weather THAT bad for
that long in Florida.

Well a trawler is quite a bit different from a sailboat. Not much
faster, and quite a bit more uncomfortable in a seaway. I'm assuming
that he was there in the winter, and I have seen quite a bit of bad
weather pretty close together with really small weather windows. It
also might be that when a weather windows did arrive, the boat wasn't
provisioned (it's hard to stay 'ready' for 4 months) or they were
having some problem with the dinghy motor or any one of a number of
other things..

Of course he may really be chicken-little. In that case, it's just as
well that he didn't go. Wouldn't it be worse for him to go if he's
not capable of handling it just because of the scorn of people like
you?

If you've never done it before, it can be scary. That's why people
try to band into groups - as if that would really help much.

I have to say that the first time we went down the ICW (and we did not
travel with anyone) and over to the Bahamas, I was always a little
nauseated especially in the morning, but it wasn't seasickness - it
was tension. And after Bob's heart attack, getting back on the boat
and bringing it back home was also difficult for me.


grandma Rosalie

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:12:59 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:


Well a trawler is quite a bit different from a sailboat. Not much
faster, and quite a bit more uncomfortable in a seaway. I'm assuming
that he was there in the winter, and I have seen quite a bit of bad
weather pretty close together with really small weather windows. It
also might be that when a weather windows did arrive, the boat wasn't
provisioned (it's hard to stay 'ready' for 4 months) or they were
having some problem with the dinghy motor or any one of a number of
other things..

Of course he may really be chicken-little. In that case, it's just as
well that he didn't go. Wouldn't it be worse for him to go if he's
not capable of handling it just because of the scorn of people like
you?

If you've never done it before, it can be scary. That's why people
try to band into groups - as if that would really help much.

I have to say that the first time we went down the ICW (and we did not
travel with anyone) and over to the Bahamas, I was always a little
nauseated especially in the morning, but it wasn't seasickness - it
was tension. And after Bob's heart attack, getting back on the boat
and bringing it back home was also difficult for me.


grandma Rosalie

The ICW makes me nervous too! Between running aground in the center of
the channel, tides, currents, obstructions, confusing marks, bridge
schedules, nutty powerboats, and commercial shipping there are FAR
more things to worry about than in the open ocean.
I felt sorry for the guy with the trawler. He spent a lot of money on
a very seaworthy boat and really wanted to see the Bahamas. I think if
he had a hired a skipper for the crossing he would have discovered
"Hey, this isn't THAT bad - I could do this too with some experience
gained"

joe_323 wrote:
As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL.

How hot, how high, how heavy ?.
Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem.
BTDTGTsoiled underwear.

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:13:44 +0100, Chris Newport
wrote:

joe_323 wrote:
As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and
killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too
chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic
ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200
foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into
a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft
control skills to be flying AT ALL.

How hot, how high, how heavy ?.
Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem.
BTDTGTsoiled underwear.
I used to *hate* doing rental checkouts for our Mooney out of our 2300
foot strip with the proverbial 50 foot trees at each end. There was
about a 2 knot spread between stalling into the near trees or floating
into the far trees. OTOH after my students soloed there I never
worried about them going to other airports

joe_323 wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:13:44 +0100, Chris Newport

How hot, how high, how heavy ?.
Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem.
BTDTGTsoiled underwear.

I used to *hate* doing rental checkouts for our Mooney out of our 2300
foot strip with the proverbial 50 foot trees at each end. There was
about a 2 knot spread between stalling into the near trees or floating
into the far trees. OTOH after my students soloed there I never
worried about them going to other airports

Most of my flying was hot&high in Africa.
I tried a Mooney and came to the conclusion that it was too damn
slippery for my liking, and definitely not a short field candidate. It
always gave me the impression that it would get away from me on finals
given even half a chance.

After a few worrying moments in the Bonanza I always stuck to the C182
or preferably the 690B when I could grab it. Both much better suited to
visiting farm strips.

OTOH, I always loved to watch the Pilastus Porter owned by the skydiving
club, their pilot could get that thing down and stopped before the
parachutists hit the ground. Amazing machine.