On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:45:00 -0400, "Miech"
wrote:

We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

Well, this depends on the type of sailing, location and time of year,
but here's some generalizations. Our son is now 3 1/2 and we are on
Lake Ontario with a 33 foot C&C designed racer-cruiser from the '70s
(tiller and narrow beam, pretty spartan by today's standards).

1) He first sailed at five days...attached to his mother for the most
part.

2) At seven months he was in a Bjorn chest carrier on either of us to
get on and off the boat. We used netting in the V-berth once he
started to roll around a bit.

3) We lashed him into a car seat wearing a PFD, and lashed old
kapok-style vests around the car seat for cushioning and floatation.
Then we lashed the whole lot into the cockpit, put on some sunscreen
and a floppy hat and went sailing. No problem.

4) The problematic part (1 year-2 1/2 or so) wherein he could walk but
didn't necessarily "get" boat safety is over. He had a vest-style PFD
with crotch strap and neck strap, and did not leave the cockpit
unescorted at any point. Last year (2 1/2) he did have the run of the
cabin, unless he was naughty, and then into the netted V-berth (or
"brig"). His PFD has a lanyard and a Gibb snapshackle. He is snapped
on in the cockpit while under way.

5) This year he is 3 1/2 (4 in early September) and he has a new PFD.
He knows port from starboard, is starting his knots, and will steer a
course this summer under close supervision and only near otherwise
unoccupied plastic marker buoys. I am considering pad eyes and
jacklines.

A few observations: Bring hats, juice and sunscreen and
sweater/windbreakers. Children suffer more from weather, thrist and
wind. Bring a musical instrument (on a lanyard) and tell them they can
finally play as loudly as they like...in the V-berth. This works quite
well, as the sounds of wind and water overwhelm the sounds of say, the
spastic tambourine, whilst letting you know exactly where Young Cap'n
Bligh is.

Bring snacks that can go overboard: fruit slices, carrots...NOT
potatos chips, which are greasy and make a mess. Small and often keeps
'em cheerful.

Bring little activity bags with medium sized toys that don't come
apart, or lively picture books with nautical themes. A surprising
favourite, considering he can't read very well yet, has been a
sailboat spotter's guide. Anything to do with pirates and the
opportunity to yell "arrr!" and "avast ye!" at passing craft seems to
be very popular.

Let them...within reason...work the boat. This could include buoy
spotting, "locate the nav hazard", listen for traffic on the VHF,
watch for "special birds" or just vocalizing mental checklists and
"consulting" the child. Use 'nautical language' on the boat, if you
intend to use it at all, as the extra effort to figure out a proxy
language will keep the kid's mind working. "Keeping watch" can help a
child learn to read clocks and to read the numbers on a compass.

The point? If he/she feels a part of the boat, they will take an
interest. You want crew, not another passenger.

This year I will teach him to swim and to identify sails and start to
watch the weather. At six we will suggest junior sail school in
Optimists. My fairly intense training of him is partly safety
oriented, and partly because we want to world cruise for five or so
years starting when he's seven or eight. A familiarity with shipboard
routine...and disciplines...will help him and his parents.

Hope this helps,

R.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:21:58 -0400, Larry W4CSC
wrote:

Please leave the baby with grandma.....for me?

All grandmas are dead, alas. My sister and my wife's brother are 40
miles away and we don't have a car...we have a boat and a nearly paid
off mortgage because we don't have a car G and we intend to go
cruising while still young, or in my case, youngish for cruising.

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the
danger of being on the boat balanced by the danger he doesn't
experience being driven ten miles a day in a big city? Can't say, but
for now, he comes with us and we sail as safely as we can.

R.

rhys wrote in
:

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the


Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

rhys wrote in
:


You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the



Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen

It's not just the water...I've never fallen overboard in years of
sailing......but I did get hit in the head by a boom on a Mirage 33 when
the skipper gibed without notice, and I was thrown into the end of the
boom scratching my glasses when the helmsman ran us aground on another
occasion. I also chipped my oldest son's front tooth at age 5. He was
playing in the cabin of my smaller centerboard weekend style sailboat
and lost his balance when I tacked. Sh*t happens.

My neighbors went aboard their 39' SV when the first baby was a few months
old. They went to Mexico on the boat and proceded to have 4 more children,
all onboard the same boat. They lived on it for 13 years and home schooled
the kids.The only reson they moved off was to give the kids more interaction
with others and to enjoy high school things. The last of the five are now
close to finishing college!
G
wrote in message
oups.com...
My parents raised 9 kids and took us all on crazy trips. They never
sailed but did seem to do everything they could afford to do with all
of us, mostly involving a canoe on various Fl bodies of water. If I
suggested they babysit while we went sailing, they'd think we were a
family disgracce. Besides, with 18 grandkids ( I may have lost count),
atking time to babysit in anything except an emergency would make it
impossible for them to do anything. Your kids are part of your life,
you should be able to figure out how to take them.
Congratulations on the little one BTW.

kth wrote:
My baby was born last June and already has more sea time than most
adults I know. For me, I was concerned about finding a properly
fitted
PFD and to make sure it did it's job. I bought three different types
(all type 3 but different styles) and tried them out. The one that
worked best and looked fairly comfortable on her. It was purchased
from West Marine and was the least expensive of the three. I first
tried it out in a tub and then a few weeks later in a pool.

Aside from that I used the car seat last summer (didnt strap her in).
Even though she still fits in it, I dont think Ill be using it this
summer.

Miech wrote:
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have
experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as
well
as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have
had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap
the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at
age
6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

Have any kids, Larry?

I had two, now I have one. Lost the second @ 4 yrs to drowning in his
grandparent's backyard swimming pool. S*it does happen, even in the home
environment. We, his parents, did survive, overcame the horrors of guilt,
and have a healthy life.

The point? Babies need care and supervision everywhere, all the time. This
can be provided almost anywhere, including on a sailboat. Avoiding sailing
because of uncontrollable catastrophes is like refusing to ride in an
automobile because of the annual highway death toll. OTOH, providing a
child with the confined and continual care a cruising lifestyle encompasses
has considerable advantages over tot-care, traffic, neighborhood crime,
suburban rat-racing, TV, mall crawlers, and backyard swimming pools.

Padeen


"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
rhys wrote in
:

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the


Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't
save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save
themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their
baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they
don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

My daughter was born on April 16, and went out with us from the
beginning of the sailing season in MA onward. First year is easiest
because she could be strapped into a car seat and we knew she would stay
put. After she began to move, one adult always had to have her within
arm's reach.

Lots of good times, that she doesn't remember, but one that she seems to
is hanging a baby swing from the boom at anchor. She wore a life jacket
even though the boom was centered in the cockpit. She had a great 360
degree view and collected a lot of comments

The Martins started their family while sailing around the world on a
highly modified Cal 25 and they offer some specific tips and stories at
SetSail.com: http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin.html

Use common sense, be careful, and everything should be fine.

Little things to remember, juice boxes need to be in hard holders
otherwise they get squeezed and juice gets all over the cockpit. Hats
and airy long sleeve clothes in addition to sunblock. If you get into
the pacifier routine, keep an extra package of one or two on board all
the time, in addition to the stuff that travels with the diaper/day bag.
A weekend can be ruined by losing the damn thing. If you keep emergency
food onboard, be sure to add "kid stuff" to the supplies, in the event
that motor and wind conspire to make it impossible to come in one night.

Yes, it can be stressful, but it needn't keep you tied to the dock to
have a small child with you.

Good luck,

Jonathan

Miech wrote:

We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at age 6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen



What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

I hesitate to mention it....but an economist was talking on NPR, this
morning.
He had controversial views on the crime wave vs abortion, and on swim
pools vs guns.

Here was his assertion on swim pools:
there are X children drowned each year in swim pools.
(He mentioned a figure - I think it was in the hundreds.)

There are Y children killed each year from gun-shot wounds from
home-based weapons.

the gun-deaths Y are less than the drowning numbers X
but there are about as many guns as the US population numbers.
And there are many less swim pools than the US population.
HENCE, home swim-pools are MUCH more dangerous than
home-owners guns....

His views on abortion are even more inflammatory - that there is a
clear relation between the beginning of the option to choose abortion,
and 20 years later, the reduction in violent crime. His assertion:
that unwanted children suffer adverse consequences of being raised in
an unwanted or insufficient family environment.

Brian Whatcott


On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:05:36 GMT, "Padeen"
wrote:

Have any kids, Larry?

I had two, now I have one. Lost the second @ 4 yrs to drowning in his
grandparent's backyard swimming pool. S*it does happen, even in the home
environment. We, his parents, did survive, overcame the horrors of guilt,
and have a healthy life.

The point? Babies need care and supervision everywhere, all the time. This
can be provided almost anywhere, including on a sailboat. Avoiding sailing
because of uncontrollable catastrophes is like refusing to ride in an
automobile because of the annual highway death toll. OTOH, providing a
child with the confined and continual care a cruising lifestyle encompasses
has considerable advantages over tot-care, traffic, neighborhood crime,
suburban rat-racing, TV, mall crawlers, and backyard swimming pools.

Padeen


"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
rhys wrote in
:

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the


Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't
save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save
themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their
baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they
don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.