Our daughter was born in September but didn't start sailing until she
was about 8 months old for a 2 week trip. We did live on our 30' boat
though .

When she was 8 months old she wasn't walking so she spent a lot of the
time underway when in a car seat under the dodger to keep her from the
sun. She loved dinghy rides and dragging her hand in the water. A 0-4
month old doesn't need much to keep her amused. Keep her hydrated, out
of the sun, and comfortable and they will be fine.

People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?

Suggestions: have the boat set up to be easily single handed, including
an autopilot if at all possible. Make meals in advance or keep them
very simple when underway. Be conservative about your sailing
destinations & the weather. Allow lots of play time before & after the
sailing part of the day.

At age 8 months she was easier to handle than the following summer, when
we moved, had a smaller (24' San Juan) boat. That summer she wore a PFD
in the cockpit (a tether was not a good idea for her active little
self). This 1-1/2 - 2-1/2 age range was more challenging; as somebody
said lots of activities but not much brains for safety.

New "boat specific" toys & activities when she/he gets older are great
(bubbles, pouring water in the cockpit, pretend fishing rods).

The next year we got a bigger 40' catamaran. She is pretty happy with
her next size up lifejacket. She has to wear it out of the cockpit on
deck. Since our boat doesn't heel we are less worried about losing her,
though one day we'll get lifelines (seriously). At this age she loves
our trampolines and her real fishing rod and going with dad to set the
crab trap.

She has fallen out of a dinghy while rowing with cousins at age 2-3/4.
Wearing her PFD she starting swimming for the big boat. Her only worry
was her hat had covered her eyes and couldn't see too well where she was
going.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen




What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of participants.

Stephen

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!


What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

I haven't seen any figures on risk broken down to include only infants,
but the overall risk of fatality when sailing is given as 0.12 per
million hours at:
web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/phmSAS04.ppt (slide 12)
while the risk for riding in a passenger car is estimated at 0.47 per
million hours at:
http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/comparat.html

I realize both studies are a bit dated, and cars have gotten a little
safer in the last decade, but I doubt any change would be large enough
to make cars safer than sailing. More current statistics would be
welcomed.

Based on the above numbers it appears that if the risk of taking the
child on an afternoon drive is considered acceptable then going sailing
for the afternoon should be acceptable as well provided that normal
precautions appropriate to each activity are followed.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen

What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

The denial is on your part.

You are not looking at the actual hazard which is much less in boating
than in driving. You are just accustomed to driving - it is a
necessary part of life for almost all parents, and so we accept the
hazard. It has been made safer with the addition of car seats and car
crash protection etc, but it is still dangerous. You are more
outraged by the smaller hazard in boating because it is not necessary.

Just like refueling a gasoline automobile is dangerous. We have all
kinds of rules for refueling a boat with gasoline, but we do cars all
the time, and people are so used to it that they stand there and smoke
while they do it.

An infant is not defenseless if there are parent(s) who are vigilant
and aware - whether the hazard is a bear in the woods, or crime in the
streets or the hazard of drowning.

Plus I don't think you are really processing what people are saying
about how they are dealing with an infant. A child before they walk
is much less at risk than a toddler - generally they stay where you
put them. If a mom is 'wearing' the child, the child goes where the
mom goes - on board or overboard. If the child is in a car seat tied
down in the boat, it's no more unsafe than a car seat in a car. In
either case, the safety of the child depends on the safe operation of
the vehicle.

The crunch comes when the child is more mobile. We have had toddlers
on the boat and we require that all persons wear PFDs unless they are
below in the cabin with a parent (these were grandchildren). The
child sometimes pitched a fit, but they wore the PFD anyway. One of
them was sitting on his mom's lap while she steered, and he unscrewed
the wheel. But it is a sailboat, and that was pretty quickly fixed.
It wasn't life threatening.

The really dangerous part is getting from the dock to the boat.


grandma Rosalie

Larry W4CSC wrote:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

Denial? Maybe not. The CG Accident reports started reporting "AGE OF
INJURED VICTIM BY TYPE OF VESSEL" in the last two reports. The total
number of injuries for children under 12 in auxiliary sailboats in
2002 and 2003 is one. They don't have the same breakdown in previous
years, but the rough evidence implies this is not an anomaly.
(Especially if you don't count the two children that drowned in a Mac
26x rollover 4 years ago.) Infants don't belong on jetskis, but I'm
not sure you can make a case that a well handled larger sailboat is
that dangerous.

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2003.pdf

BTW, shortly before leaving on our trip our 4 year old daughter hit a
post running into the day care center. We spent a morning in the ER
having here forehead superglued together. This was worse than any
injury on our year long cruise. In fact, since I got out of dinghy
sailing, there's never been an injury on any kind in any of my boats.
However, several months after returning from the trip, my wife blew
out her Achilles playing soccer. I'm not at all convinced cruising is
more dangerous than being on land, especially if appropriate care is
taken.

A good way for little ones to have fun on a hot day of sailing: Put up
the bimini, stop up the cockpit drains and flood the cockpit with about
1.5" water. The little ones splash around and have a ball. It keeps
your feet cool too.

Jeff wrote:
Larry W4CSC wrote:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a
normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless
infant,
than riding in a carseat.

Denial? Maybe not. The CG Accident reports started reporting "AGE
OF
INJURED VICTIM BY TYPE OF VESSEL" in the last two reports. The total

number of injuries for children under 12 in auxiliary sailboats in
2002 and 2003 is one. They don't have the same breakdown in previous

years, but the rough evidence implies this is not an anomaly.
(Especially if you don't count the two children that drowned in a Mac

26x rollover 4 years ago.) Infants don't belong on jetskis, but I'm
not sure you can make a case that a well handled larger sailboat is
that dangerous.

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2003.pdf

BTW, shortly before leaving on our trip our 4 year old daughter hit a

post running into the day care center. We spent a morning in the ER
having here forehead superglued together. This was worse than any
injury on our year long cruise. In fact, since I got out of dinghy
sailing, there's never been an injury on any kind in any of my boats.

However, several months after returning from the trip, my wife blew

out her Achilles playing soccer. I'm not at all convinced cruising
is
more dangerous than being on land, especially if appropriate care is
taken.

Evan Gatehouse wrote in
:

People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?



* 30' boat flips from rogue wave. Adults thrown overboard. Child strapped
in car seat, car seat attached to boat is now underwater, face-down, in
inverted boat.....or on bottom of lake/river/ocean in sunken boat.

** 30' boat sliced open from uncharted rock 2' underwater. Boat sinks in
seconds as adults scramble to unstrap child from stupid, non-PFD car seat.
Adults not wearing PFDs drown trying to save him.

Any more stupid questions this afternoon?

What brand/model of infant PFD can that 8-month-old tiny baby wear that's
on your boat? If we put the baby in it and throw him overboard, assuming
he is not strapped down to the sinking hulk headed for the bottom, will he
breathe any water into his lungs? Will his head slip through the hole if
you're not there to hold him in it?

Why bother?

Geez.....................(d^

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.

Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.

Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard–
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
.. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of 3-
5?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors25.php
Here's a webpage from a North Dakota game warden who's laws are more strict
than South Carolina's with some really great ideas like:
"If you don’t have a PFD that fits your child, or it’s too hot for them to
wear it, stay on shore."
The boat ran aground because someone was not paying attention. The poor
kid was in a carseat, not a PFD as required. Do carseats float UPRIGHT?
Interesting to test....in the worst waves and wakes you boat in?

The article says:
"Upon arrival I found two young parents tending to a newborn baby who
didn’t have any type of PFD. The baby was in a car seat and thankfully all
was fine, aside from the boat, which came to rest up a steep wooded
incline, indicating a lack of attention while operating the vessel. I still
to this day think of how haunting the memory would’ve been had the car seat
been jolted out of the boat and into the lake.

For several years I checked boats and watercraft and was continually
disappointed in
compliance with PFD laws, especially the one that applies to children.

While only youngsters 10 and under must be wearing a Coast Guard approved
PFD
while in a boat, the common response was, “I couldn’t find one that fits,”
or “it was too hot to put them in a PFD.” While politely replying that the
law requires youngsters to wear PFDs, I was always reminded of what could
have happened if that baby in the carseat had accidentally wound up in the
lake."

The big boat lobby in SC has this requirement limited to only boats UNDER
SIXTEEN FEET that the kid has to have a PFD on under 12:
From the SCDNR rules manual:
"South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

If the 6-year-old who can't swim is standing on the bow of the 32' bubble
boat without a PFD on, the big boat lobby says that's OK. We can't
prosecute the parents, in SC, because the baby was strapped in the car seat
which was secured to the port cockpit seating and went down when the boat
broached or pitchpoled or flipped over in the 40' Cigarette Boat going,
legally, 102 mph across the harbor.

We have a long history, by the way, of not prosecuting people with money in
SC....

They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?

wrote in
oups.com:

A good way for little ones to have fun on a hot day of sailing: Put up
the bimini, stop up the cockpit drains and flood the cockpit with about
1.5" water. The little ones splash around and have a ball. It keeps
your feet cool too.


One of the best uses I've found for the 9.6 Watertender one of the boaters
on the dock gave me to get rid of it is to set it out in my yard and drop
the waterhose into it. It's a great, indestructable kiddie pool for my
neighbors' kids to play in. How many kiddie pools have 3 seats and 4 drink
holders?!...(c;

We like it better than lining my neighbor's Ford F-150 pickup bed with
plastic sheeting and filling it because the boat leaves the truck free for
adult use...
http://www.bestofhumor.com/html/Redn...ming-Pool.html
http://www.dobhran.com/humor/GRhumor484.htm

Larry W4CSC wrote:
Evan Gatehouse wrote in
:


People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?




* 30' boat flips from rogue wave. Adults thrown overboard. Child strapped
in car seat, car seat attached to boat is now underwater, face-down, in
inverted boat.....or on bottom of lake/river/ocean in sunken boat.

** 30' boat sliced open from uncharted rock 2' underwater. Boat sinks in
seconds as adults scramble to unstrap child from stupid, non-PFD car seat.
Adults not wearing PFDs drown trying to save him.

Any more stupid questions this afternoon?

No, I think you have the "stupid question" market sewn up, Larry.

You're argument is based on events that are extremely rare. Cruising
sailboats don't sink very often, and they don't capsize. The one case
I know of where a keel got ripped off actually had a young child on
board, but there were no injuries.

The statistics are quite clear: cruising boats are vastly safer than
riding in a car. For example, almost 300,000 children are injured
each year in car accidents. This means that one out of every 250
families has a child injured. Given that there are about 230,000 aux
sailboats, one might expect 1000 injuries, but in fact there was only
1 in the last two years.




What brand/model of infant PFD can that 8-month-old tiny baby wear that's
on your boat? If we put the baby in it and throw him overboard, assuming
he is not strapped down to the sinking hulk headed for the bottom, will he
breathe any water into his lungs? Will his head slip through the hole if
you're not there to hold him in it?

So, how many sailboats do you think sink every year? Its about 4, or
about two for every 100,000. How many infants do you think die from
all accidents? The rate is about 22 per 100,000. Actually the odds
sinking are about the same as drowning in the bathtub.



Why bother?

Why not? The most dangerous part of sailing is driving to the marina.