I hesitate to mention it....but an economist was talking on NPR, this
morning.
He had controversial views on the crime wave vs abortion, and on swim
pools vs guns.

Here was his assertion on swim pools:
there are X children drowned each year in swim pools.
(He mentioned a figure - I think it was in the hundreds.)

There are Y children killed each year from gun-shot wounds from
home-based weapons.

the gun-deaths Y are less than the drowning numbers X
but there are about as many guns as the US population numbers.
And there are many less swim pools than the US population.
HENCE, home swim-pools are MUCH more dangerous than
home-owners guns....

His views on abortion are even more inflammatory - that there is a
clear relation between the beginning of the option to choose abortion,
and 20 years later, the reduction in violent crime. His assertion:
that unwanted children suffer adverse consequences of being raised in
an unwanted or insufficient family environment.

Brian Whatcott


On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:05:36 GMT, "Padeen"
wrote:

Have any kids, Larry?

I had two, now I have one. Lost the second @ 4 yrs to drowning in his
grandparent's backyard swimming pool. S*it does happen, even in the home
environment. We, his parents, did survive, overcame the horrors of guilt,
and have a healthy life.

The point? Babies need care and supervision everywhere, all the time. This
can be provided almost anywhere, including on a sailboat. Avoiding sailing
because of uncontrollable catastrophes is like refusing to ride in an
automobile because of the annual highway death toll. OTOH, providing a
child with the confined and continual care a cruising lifestyle encompasses
has considerable advantages over tot-care, traffic, neighborhood crime,
suburban rat-racing, TV, mall crawlers, and backyard swimming pools.

Padeen


"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
rhys wrote in
:

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the


Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't
save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save
themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their
baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they
don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

Miech wrote:
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

Our daughter was born in August (9 years ago). She came to the boat
almost every weekend that fall, but we only went out if we had a very
experienced crew - people we could trust the boat with if my wife and
I both got preoccupied with the baby.

During the winter she took an infant swimming class at the Y. This
goes a long way towards "drown proofing" a child. The following
summer, she was with us for a full season. The only concession to our
normal cruising itinerary was that we went to the Vineyard rather than
Maine. Our boat at the time was a Nonsuch, with a large, deep
cockpit and easy to handle rig. We put a gate in the forward cabin,
turning the berth into a crib. Padding all around meant that she
would be comfortable and safe even in nasty weather. In one episode
we were coming out of the Cape Cod Canal into Buzzards Bay, and the
current against a strong SW wind had built up the infamous square
waves. Amelia slept through that, but she "took air" on every wave.

Everyone will tell you the baby must wear a PFD, but no one has made
one that will fit a baby under a year old. Ours spent a lot of
cockpit time strapped into an old car seat, which was lashed to the
bulkhead under the dodger. This brings up an other point - a baby can
only tolerate a tiny bit of Sun - make sure you have good shade for
the cockpit.

One more thing - an infant has a very limited horizon. Not only will
your child not remember anything from this age, he will not really
notice it either. Taking him out a this age will not make him a
better sailor, and will not be any more stimulating than a lot of much
safer experiences. You didn't mention what size or type of boat you
have, but if its small, or tippy, or bouncy, you should be very, very
cautious, at least until the child is a year old.

Not sailing, but had my son when living on the Yukon river; he went canoeing
and spent his seventh night and years after in camps along the river. Our
strict policy was this: On the river one of us ALWAYS wore a PFD and had
responsibility for ONLY him if confronted with an emergency. I strongly
disagree with Larry and others on this; with careful preparation you can
avoid confining your offspring to a skinner box for their first years, and
reap handsome rewards later for your efforts.
Padeen

"Miech" wrote in message
...
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as
any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at age 6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

My baby was born last June and already has more sea time than most
adults I know. For me, I was concerned about finding a properly fitted
PFD and to make sure it did it's job. I bought three different types
(all type 3 but different styles) and tried them out. The one that
worked best and looked fairly comfortable on her. It was purchased
from West Marine and was the least expensive of the three. I first
tried it out in a tub and then a few weeks later in a pool.

Aside from that I used the car seat last summer (didnt strap her in).
Even though she still fits in it, I dont think Ill be using it this
summer.

Miech wrote:
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have
experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well
as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap
the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at age
6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

My parents raised 9 kids and took us all on crazy trips. They never
sailed but did seem to do everything they could afford to do with all
of us, mostly involving a canoe on various Fl bodies of water. If I
suggested they babysit while we went sailing, they'd think we were a
family disgracce. Besides, with 18 grandkids ( I may have lost count),
atking time to babysit in anything except an emergency would make it
impossible for them to do anything. Your kids are part of your life,
you should be able to figure out how to take them.
Congratulations on the little one BTW.

kth wrote:
My baby was born last June and already has more sea time than most
adults I know. For me, I was concerned about finding a properly
fitted
PFD and to make sure it did it's job. I bought three different types
(all type 3 but different styles) and tried them out. The one that
worked best and looked fairly comfortable on her. It was purchased
from West Marine and was the least expensive of the three. I first
tried it out in a tub and then a few weeks later in a pool.

Aside from that I used the car seat last summer (didnt strap her in).
Even though she still fits in it, I dont think Ill be using it this
summer.

Miech wrote:
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have
experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as
well
as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have
had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap
the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at
age
6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

My neighbors went aboard their 39' SV when the first baby was a few months
old. They went to Mexico on the boat and proceded to have 4 more children,
all onboard the same boat. They lived on it for 13 years and home schooled
the kids.The only reson they moved off was to give the kids more interaction
with others and to enjoy high school things. The last of the five are now
close to finishing college!
G
wrote in message
oups.com...
My parents raised 9 kids and took us all on crazy trips. They never
sailed but did seem to do everything they could afford to do with all
of us, mostly involving a canoe on various Fl bodies of water. If I
suggested they babysit while we went sailing, they'd think we were a
family disgracce. Besides, with 18 grandkids ( I may have lost count),
atking time to babysit in anything except an emergency would make it
impossible for them to do anything. Your kids are part of your life,
you should be able to figure out how to take them.
Congratulations on the little one BTW.

kth wrote:
My baby was born last June and already has more sea time than most
adults I know. For me, I was concerned about finding a properly
fitted
PFD and to make sure it did it's job. I bought three different types
(all type 3 but different styles) and tried them out. The one that
worked best and looked fairly comfortable on her. It was purchased
from West Marine and was the least expensive of the three. I first
tried it out in a tub and then a few weeks later in a pool.

Aside from that I used the car seat last summer (didnt strap her in).
Even though she still fits in it, I dont think Ill be using it this
summer.

Miech wrote:
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have
experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as
well
as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have
had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap
the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at
age
6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:45:00 -0400, "Miech"
wrote:

We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

Well, this depends on the type of sailing, location and time of year,
but here's some generalizations. Our son is now 3 1/2 and we are on
Lake Ontario with a 33 foot C&C designed racer-cruiser from the '70s
(tiller and narrow beam, pretty spartan by today's standards).

1) He first sailed at five days...attached to his mother for the most
part.

2) At seven months he was in a Bjorn chest carrier on either of us to
get on and off the boat. We used netting in the V-berth once he
started to roll around a bit.

3) We lashed him into a car seat wearing a PFD, and lashed old
kapok-style vests around the car seat for cushioning and floatation.
Then we lashed the whole lot into the cockpit, put on some sunscreen
and a floppy hat and went sailing. No problem.

4) The problematic part (1 year-2 1/2 or so) wherein he could walk but
didn't necessarily "get" boat safety is over. He had a vest-style PFD
with crotch strap and neck strap, and did not leave the cockpit
unescorted at any point. Last year (2 1/2) he did have the run of the
cabin, unless he was naughty, and then into the netted V-berth (or
"brig"). His PFD has a lanyard and a Gibb snapshackle. He is snapped
on in the cockpit while under way.

5) This year he is 3 1/2 (4 in early September) and he has a new PFD.
He knows port from starboard, is starting his knots, and will steer a
course this summer under close supervision and only near otherwise
unoccupied plastic marker buoys. I am considering pad eyes and
jacklines.

A few observations: Bring hats, juice and sunscreen and
sweater/windbreakers. Children suffer more from weather, thrist and
wind. Bring a musical instrument (on a lanyard) and tell them they can
finally play as loudly as they like...in the V-berth. This works quite
well, as the sounds of wind and water overwhelm the sounds of say, the
spastic tambourine, whilst letting you know exactly where Young Cap'n
Bligh is.

Bring snacks that can go overboard: fruit slices, carrots...NOT
potatos chips, which are greasy and make a mess. Small and often keeps
'em cheerful.

Bring little activity bags with medium sized toys that don't come
apart, or lively picture books with nautical themes. A surprising
favourite, considering he can't read very well yet, has been a
sailboat spotter's guide. Anything to do with pirates and the
opportunity to yell "arrr!" and "avast ye!" at passing craft seems to
be very popular.

Let them...within reason...work the boat. This could include buoy
spotting, "locate the nav hazard", listen for traffic on the VHF,
watch for "special birds" or just vocalizing mental checklists and
"consulting" the child. Use 'nautical language' on the boat, if you
intend to use it at all, as the extra effort to figure out a proxy
language will keep the kid's mind working. "Keeping watch" can help a
child learn to read clocks and to read the numbers on a compass.

The point? If he/she feels a part of the boat, they will take an
interest. You want crew, not another passenger.

This year I will teach him to swim and to identify sails and start to
watch the weather. At six we will suggest junior sail school in
Optimists. My fairly intense training of him is partly safety
oriented, and partly because we want to world cruise for five or so
years starting when he's seven or eight. A familiarity with shipboard
routine...and disciplines...will help him and his parents.

Hope this helps,

R.

My daughter was born on April 16, and went out with us from the
beginning of the sailing season in MA onward. First year is easiest
because she could be strapped into a car seat and we knew she would stay
put. After she began to move, one adult always had to have her within
arm's reach.

Lots of good times, that she doesn't remember, but one that she seems to
is hanging a baby swing from the boom at anchor. She wore a life jacket
even though the boom was centered in the cockpit. She had a great 360
degree view and collected a lot of comments

The Martins started their family while sailing around the world on a
highly modified Cal 25 and they offer some specific tips and stories at
SetSail.com: http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin.html

Use common sense, be careful, and everything should be fine.

Little things to remember, juice boxes need to be in hard holders
otherwise they get squeezed and juice gets all over the cockpit. Hats
and airy long sleeve clothes in addition to sunblock. If you get into
the pacifier routine, keep an extra package of one or two on board all
the time, in addition to the stuff that travels with the diaper/day bag.
A weekend can be ruined by losing the damn thing. If you keep emergency
food onboard, be sure to add "kid stuff" to the supplies, in the event
that motor and wind conspire to make it impossible to come in one night.

Yes, it can be stressful, but it needn't keep you tied to the dock to
have a small child with you.

Good luck,

Jonathan

Miech wrote:

We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as any
product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at age 6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay

Our daughter was born in September but didn't start sailing until she
was about 8 months old for a 2 week trip. We did live on our 30' boat
though .

When she was 8 months old she wasn't walking so she spent a lot of the
time underway when in a car seat under the dodger to keep her from the
sun. She loved dinghy rides and dragging her hand in the water. A 0-4
month old doesn't need much to keep her amused. Keep her hydrated, out
of the sun, and comfortable and they will be fine.

People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?

Suggestions: have the boat set up to be easily single handed, including
an autopilot if at all possible. Make meals in advance or keep them
very simple when underway. Be conservative about your sailing
destinations & the weather. Allow lots of play time before & after the
sailing part of the day.

At age 8 months she was easier to handle than the following summer, when
we moved, had a smaller (24' San Juan) boat. That summer she wore a PFD
in the cockpit (a tether was not a good idea for her active little
self). This 1-1/2 - 2-1/2 age range was more challenging; as somebody
said lots of activities but not much brains for safety.

New "boat specific" toys & activities when she/he gets older are great
(bubbles, pouring water in the cockpit, pretend fishing rods).

The next year we got a bigger 40' catamaran. She is pretty happy with
her next size up lifejacket. She has to wear it out of the cockpit on
deck. Since our boat doesn't heel we are less worried about losing her,
though one day we'll get lifelines (seriously). At this age she loves
our trampolines and her real fishing rod and going with dad to set the
crab trap.

She has fallen out of a dinghy while rowing with cousins at age 2-3/4.
Wearing her PFD she starting swimming for the big boat. Her only worry
was her hat had covered her eyes and couldn't see too well where she was
going.

Evan Gatehouse wrote in
:

People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?



* 30' boat flips from rogue wave. Adults thrown overboard. Child strapped
in car seat, car seat attached to boat is now underwater, face-down, in
inverted boat.....or on bottom of lake/river/ocean in sunken boat.

** 30' boat sliced open from uncharted rock 2' underwater. Boat sinks in
seconds as adults scramble to unstrap child from stupid, non-PFD car seat.
Adults not wearing PFDs drown trying to save him.

Any more stupid questions this afternoon?

What brand/model of infant PFD can that 8-month-old tiny baby wear that's
on your boat? If we put the baby in it and throw him overboard, assuming
he is not strapped down to the sinking hulk headed for the bottom, will he
breathe any water into his lungs? Will his head slip through the hole if
you're not there to hold him in it?

Why bother?

Geez.....................(d^