On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:21:58 -0400, Larry W4CSC
wrote:

Please leave the baby with grandma.....for me?

All grandmas are dead, alas. My sister and my wife's brother are 40
miles away and we don't have a car...we have a boat and a nearly paid
off mortgage because we don't have a car G and we intend to go
cruising while still young, or in my case, youngish for cruising.

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the
danger of being on the boat balanced by the danger he doesn't
experience being driven ten miles a day in a big city? Can't say, but
for now, he comes with us and we sail as safely as we can.

R.

rhys wrote in
:

You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the


Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

rhys wrote in
:


You do what you can, Larry. My kid is learning to swim this year and
is very agile and safety-conscious on the boat, as are we. Is the



Excellent care. But, alas, they are taking a tiny baby to sea. The baby
cannot appreciate or comprehend anything about being on the boat, so we're
not giving him/her the experience of a lifetime. What we ARE doing is
placing the baby in danger. The baby can't swim and the parents can't save
the baby if the boat sinks because they may not be able to save themselves.
Oh, I've read all these wonderful stories of the baby that's been to sea
since he was 5 days old. But, it only has to happen just ONCE. The baby
lost at sea, the parents survive...but to what? They've killed their baby.
How awful that must feel, no matter how macho their stupid asses are.....

When the child is fully concious as to his surroundings, has learned to
swim the length of the pool and is large enough to wear a proper
PFD....then, and only then, should the child be on a boat.

But not a defenseless, helpless baby!

How stupid.....disgusting. They put the child in danger just so they don't
have to sacrifice their own pleasure..... The baby and the nursing mother
belong at home.

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen



What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen




What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of participants.

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.

Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.

Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard–
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
.. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of 3-
5?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors25.php
Here's a webpage from a North Dakota game warden who's laws are more strict
than South Carolina's with some really great ideas like:
"If you don’t have a PFD that fits your child, or it’s too hot for them to
wear it, stay on shore."
The boat ran aground because someone was not paying attention. The poor
kid was in a carseat, not a PFD as required. Do carseats float UPRIGHT?
Interesting to test....in the worst waves and wakes you boat in?

The article says:
"Upon arrival I found two young parents tending to a newborn baby who
didn’t have any type of PFD. The baby was in a car seat and thankfully all
was fine, aside from the boat, which came to rest up a steep wooded
incline, indicating a lack of attention while operating the vessel. I still
to this day think of how haunting the memory would’ve been had the car seat
been jolted out of the boat and into the lake.

For several years I checked boats and watercraft and was continually
disappointed in
compliance with PFD laws, especially the one that applies to children.

While only youngsters 10 and under must be wearing a Coast Guard approved
PFD
while in a boat, the common response was, “I couldn’t find one that fits,”
or “it was too hot to put them in a PFD.” While politely replying that the
law requires youngsters to wear PFDs, I was always reminded of what could
have happened if that baby in the carseat had accidentally wound up in the
lake."

The big boat lobby in SC has this requirement limited to only boats UNDER
SIXTEEN FEET that the kid has to have a PFD on under 12:
From the SCDNR rules manual:
"South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

If the 6-year-old who can't swim is standing on the bow of the 32' bubble
boat without a PFD on, the big boat lobby says that's OK. We can't
prosecute the parents, in SC, because the baby was strapped in the car seat
which was secured to the port cockpit seating and went down when the boat
broached or pitchpoled or flipped over in the 40' Cigarette Boat going,
legally, 102 mph across the harbor.

We have a long history, by the way, of not prosecuting people with money in
SC....

They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.


Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.

Barring very bad luck those infants can be defended, or rescued, like
one referred to in this thread was.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.


Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?

By now you've seen the URLs and stats. The percentage of infants killed
on the road is higher, so, still more dangerous for any one infant on
the road.

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard–
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of 3-
5?

If you're trying to say that rescuing an infant with or without a
flotation device is more difficult than rescuing any other person who
can't swimm, then I'm not sure I agree. My father in law told me about
his fear of the water coming from once when he was drowning and he
almosts drowned one guy trying to rescue him. An infant would be way
easier than that!

[...]
They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.

If you're trying to say that PFDs for infants are harder to find than
for anyone else, well, it seems you may be right. Sounds like they need
some kind of special rig. HEY SOMEONE INVENT SOMETHING! ;-)

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.

Hm, sounds like a good idea!

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.

Probably another good idea.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?

Just those for the four of us with a few cheap extras. So, okay, no
infants on board unless they have the right PFD! As it is now, anyone
anywhere near being able to fall in the water wears a PFD, including me.
Oh yeah, and anyone who's had more than two drinks who is anywhere near
able to fall in the water also wears a line! ;-)

Stephen

Larry, read that section again on PFD's. I think you'll find a couple of
exceptions.
a) if your chest is greater than 54 inches
b) an infant.

Infant survival time in the water is very short as they get hypothermia very
very quickly.
So, the best idea is not to let them get in the water. That being said, you
can stay home
in your house or you can live life to the fullest. Everybodies gotta die
sometime, and
tragedies happen...That's life, so to speak.

Jeff

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.

Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.

Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard-
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard-approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of
3-
5?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors25.php
Here's a webpage from a North Dakota game warden who's laws are more
strict
than South Carolina's with some really great ideas like:
"If you don't have a PFD that fits your child, or it's too hot for them to
wear it, stay on shore."
The boat ran aground because someone was not paying attention. The poor
kid was in a carseat, not a PFD as required. Do carseats float UPRIGHT?
Interesting to test....in the worst waves and wakes you boat in?

The article says:
"Upon arrival I found two young parents tending to a newborn baby who
didn't have any type of PFD. The baby was in a car seat and thankfully all
was fine, aside from the boat, which came to rest up a steep wooded
incline, indicating a lack of attention while operating the vessel. I
still
to this day think of how haunting the memory would've been had the car
seat
been jolted out of the boat and into the lake.

For several years I checked boats and watercraft and was continually
disappointed in
compliance with PFD laws, especially the one that applies to children.

While only youngsters 10 and under must be wearing a Coast Guard approved
PFD
while in a boat, the common response was, "I couldn't find one that fits,"
or "it was too hot to put them in a PFD." While politely replying that the
law requires youngsters to wear PFDs, I was always reminded of what could
have happened if that baby in the carseat had accidentally wound up in the
lake."

The big boat lobby in SC has this requirement limited to only boats UNDER
SIXTEEN FEET that the kid has to have a PFD on under 12:
From the SCDNR rules manual:
"South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard-approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

If the 6-year-old who can't swim is standing on the bow of the 32' bubble
boat without a PFD on, the big boat lobby says that's OK. We can't
prosecute the parents, in SC, because the baby was strapped in the car
seat
which was secured to the port cockpit seating and went down when the boat
broached or pitchpoled or flipped over in the 40' Cigarette Boat going,
legally, 102 mph across the harbor.

We have a long history, by the way, of not prosecuting people with money
in
SC....

They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY
in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on
the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests
so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on
the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!


What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

I haven't seen any figures on risk broken down to include only infants,
but the overall risk of fatality when sailing is given as 0.12 per
million hours at:
web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/phmSAS04.ppt (slide 12)
while the risk for riding in a passenger car is estimated at 0.47 per
million hours at:
http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/comparat.html

I realize both studies are a bit dated, and cars have gotten a little
safer in the last decade, but I doubt any change would be large enough
to make cars safer than sailing. More current statistics would be
welcomed.

Based on the above numbers it appears that if the risk of taking the
child on an afternoon drive is considered acceptable then going sailing
for the afternoon should be acceptable as well provided that normal
precautions appropriate to each activity are followed.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

And how long should they wait before bringing a baby home to a normal
house? Right outside the door are dangerous roads and highways!

Stephen

What's this? Denial?

Being on a boat is much more dangerous, especially to a defenseless infant,
than riding in a carseat.

The denial is on your part.

You are not looking at the actual hazard which is much less in boating
than in driving. You are just accustomed to driving - it is a
necessary part of life for almost all parents, and so we accept the
hazard. It has been made safer with the addition of car seats and car
crash protection etc, but it is still dangerous. You are more
outraged by the smaller hazard in boating because it is not necessary.

Just like refueling a gasoline automobile is dangerous. We have all
kinds of rules for refueling a boat with gasoline, but we do cars all
the time, and people are so used to it that they stand there and smoke
while they do it.

An infant is not defenseless if there are parent(s) who are vigilant
and aware - whether the hazard is a bear in the woods, or crime in the
streets or the hazard of drowning.

Plus I don't think you are really processing what people are saying
about how they are dealing with an infant. A child before they walk
is much less at risk than a toddler - generally they stay where you
put them. If a mom is 'wearing' the child, the child goes where the
mom goes - on board or overboard. If the child is in a car seat tied
down in the boat, it's no more unsafe than a car seat in a car. In
either case, the safety of the child depends on the safe operation of
the vehicle.

The crunch comes when the child is more mobile. We have had toddlers
on the boat and we require that all persons wear PFDs unless they are
below in the cabin with a parent (these were grandchildren). The
child sometimes pitched a fit, but they wore the PFD anyway. One of
them was sitting on his mom's lap while she steered, and he unscrewed
the wheel. But it is a sailboat, and that was pretty quickly fixed.
It wasn't life threatening.

The really dangerous part is getting from the dock to the boat.


grandma Rosalie